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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Obsolescence...

I'm really happy to hear the news about DSMC 2. I hope you leave the upgrade window open for a while. :)
 
Tony Lorentzen said:
I love you guys and I know posting this is probably going to get myself into trouble, but calling it "obsolescence obsolete" really is a bit of a stretch and somewhat of a marketing label... I wouldn't exactly call it a "gimmick" though. Yes, it's a clever upgrade program that allows users to effectively upgrade their cameras and stay current if they can afford it but it's also a cleverly designed business move to keep your customers and transition them into the big boy's league. My problem with the latest Epic Dragon to Weapon Dragon is that the price is no longer an "upgrade" price - it's basically the price of a new camera. As I've understood - nothing from a camera that's being sent in is actually reused in the Weapon. It's not an upgrade - you're basically getting a new camera... I paid 17.500 for my Red One, then 5.000 for the MX upgrade, then 14.500 (if memory recalls) to go to Epic and then 9.000 for my Dragon upgrade (plus new accessories along the way). By the way - the transition from Red One to Epic was an absolutely AMAZING deal... But now - to upgrade to Weapon I'll have to pay another 29.500 plus the expense of upgrading a lot of my accessories (59.500 if I wanted to go for the CF Weapon). I know some people have paid off their Weapon upgrades in 3-4 weeks but not even professional rental companies in my market are able to pay off their cameras that fast. Some will definitely be able to do that, no doubt. Good for them!

Now - I'm incredibly happy with my Dragon - it produces amazing footage and I have happy clients but the current upgrade price for me to go to Weapon just doesn't justify it at all for me. It would probably be a much better deal for me to actually sell my camera and buy a new one all over again. If you want to truly say it's "obsolescence obsolete" then it should be a far better deal for me to "upgrade" instead of buying new. Just my 2 cents.
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Love you too man but that isn't a fair statement. If you signed up for the Weapon upgrade depending where you went from and where you were going to your upgrade price should of been very close to what you paid to go from your R1 to Epic, And that includes $5000 of new accessories to make the whole "nothing works anymore" problem go away... i.e. the obsolescence.


So the Weapon MG trade in package that includes the new accessories you need is $ 29.5k Minus whatever version of Epic you have , ( lets say Epic-X to compare equally the bottom of the Epic line to the bottom of the Weapon line) , we are giving you $15,500 of trade in credit so you are paying $14,000 total for a new camera that includes all new accessories that a new customer would pay $30k just for the brain alone . I don't know how that's a worse deal than what you paid along the way ( similar to your own words " amazing deal " to go from R1 to Epic" ) and I don't know how that is not just an incredibly great program.

Of course if you are talking about going from the bottom Epic all the way to the top Weapon Forged, you will pay substantially more but that camera costs twice as much as the Epic MG package so it's not fair for you to expect an equal jump.

 
I always looked at Obsolescence this way.

Before RED making a camera choice was hard. One thing that made it hard was trying to get a full picture of what was coming. You could buy a camera and it could be a brick in a very short time frame and your option was to buy a new camera. I could equate it to buying a MACpro trashcan today. Do you buy it right now? or wait and see if it gets updated? If I buy it today and it gets updated next month, well, too bad for me.

Red has always been about, "hey, we are going on this ride, wanna come?" "We are going to keep making cameras and we don't want to burn our customers so we will always give you the chance to step up to the new offering or keep what you have, no problem."

By doing this they really took the sting out of buying a new camera and they give customers choices. There are still people making great images with the original RED ONE. That camera is not obsolete (it might be for a few) but for many it might not be.

So the whole concept was about changing the way we own camera systems which made it a flexible way to stay updated with new technology trends.

I remember when AVID's cost 100K and you could not upgrade your OS or you license would no longer be qualified for an operating system upgrade. Then FCP came along and things changed pretty quick, much like what RED has done in the camera game, people needed to look at it differently now.

It's a different way of doing business.

You can call it a "marketing thing" but it is rooted in philosophy and being flexible in a tech oriented marketplace. Plus, we can look back and see how that vision has worked out. I think everybody wins in this scenario.

David
 
Great news. We are getting a Scarlet-w this year. Our Scarlet-x will become our b-cam. More worthwhile to hold onto as a second cam then sell IMO. We see the Scarlet-w as a five year investment. By which stage it will likely become our b or c cam to something else. And in the meantime we'll invest in grip and lighting and lenses.
 
I'm currently waiting for my Raven to arrive, which will be my first RED. I was wondering whether the Raven will have the same upgrades available to it as the Scarlet-W and Weapon? :smiley:
 
I was actually going to stay with just the Epic MX when after I had bought a used Scarlet-X and upgraded. But then I though... what the hell...
I think I might have put a little more down to end up at the Weapon 6K, so I might have saved a lot by buying it new instead, however, it almost worked as paying off a loan. Small (but big) payments over two years enabled me to pay with hard earned cash, even though that was earned mostly from editorial work rather than the camera. I haven't actually used my cameras that much haha, because all other work took up so much of my time. However, a long time investment is just that, long term. I plan to do great things with it and haven't even gotten out on the market enough to get rentals rolling. So I don't think I could have afforded getting a Weapon directly, because a large investment is an uncertainty as a freelancer, smaller payments is more manageable.

I did however do the Weapon 6K upgrade for one specific thing and that is to stay on the sensor path. 8K isn't something I think I'm going to go for since 4K deliveries will be staying for a while. But if Weapon enables us to upgrade into a new 6K sensor path that was the reason I went for the upgrade. I just hope that everyone at Red stays true to us with the Weapon MG to be able to upgrade the sensor without going CF. Otherwise all cameras under the CF models will indeed be obsolete.
 
Dean Butler said:
Great news. We are getting a Scarlet-w this year. Our Scarlet-x will become our b-cam. More worthwhile to hold onto as a second cam then sell IMO. We see the Scarlet-w as a five year investment. By which stage it will likely become our b or c cam to something else. And in the meantime we'll invest in grip and lighting and lenses.
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Congrats Dean!
 
Jarred,

Thank you for an increasingly wonderful system. Wow still applies. I won't be able to see you at NAB this year but will be with you in pixel.

Recently there were hints of an upgrade path coming available for those of us with Epic MX who weren't able to jump on the first wave. Any news?

Enjoy the ride!
 
Congrats to the whole team for the developments and pushing Red further...


Milano Questa said:
That's only 4 years....
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It doesn't self-destruct after those 4 years.
Unlike some of the tech you probably own.

:)
 
Well, its good you are going to have special purpose cameras. A three color layered fixed handheld and special effects/green screen camera with multiple linked cameras for 3D point cloud (why sell 1 when you can sell 14 (like I was thinking for fast 3D early 90's/maybe 80's)). These based around a recording POV head that can be used with drones wireless recording and phones. Eng prosumer functionality pro video and cinema camera. The promised 3D single lens firmware upgrade. Those things are great products for market gaps.

At the moment you have great advantage over the BM sensor, which might mean by the time you come to market you might still have products with sensors a grade above.
 
The roadmap helps a lot thank you! CF weapon 8k was what I bet my proverbial horse on. I was so broke and apprehensive to do it cuz my scarlet MX to epic to Dragon had gotten me used to relatively cheap upgrades. This upgrade isn't cheap and I thought if I didn't skip MG and get 8k my unit may not rent as well. So though it's not here yet my CF will hopefully do well and if it does I can hopefully get more units. I still hope you make 65/70/imax sized sensors one day but 8k works for me thanks
 
Tony Lorentzen said:
I love you guys and I know posting this is probably going to get myself into trouble, but calling it "obsolescence obsolete" really is a bit of a stretch and somewhat of a marketing label... I wouldn't exactly call it a "gimmick" though. Yes, it's a clever upgrade program that allows users to effectively upgrade their cameras and stay current if they can afford it but it's also a cleverly designed business move to keep your customers and transition them into the big boy's league.
Click to expand...

Let's imagine that instead of Red you had initially gone with with Sony or Canon or even Arri. They all release new cameras with new form factors three times as frequently as Red does, and there's NO upgrade path.

i honestly don't understand what your expectation is here. That Red should develop new, better cameras and you should get it for next t nothing? That's preposterous.

If if the upgrade doesn't make financial sense for you that's one thing but don't play it off as some ripoff scheme. Be grateful there's any upgrade path.
 
Tom Dowler said:
Let's imagine that instead of Red you had initially gone with with Sony or Canon or even Arri. They all release new cameras with new form factors three times as frequently as Red does, and there's NO upgrade path.

i honestly don't understand what your expectation is here. That Red should develop new, better cameras and you should get it for next t nothing? That's preposterous.

If if the upgrade doesn't make financial sense for you that's one thing but don't play it off as some ripoff scheme. Be grateful there's any upgrade path.
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I like both business models. I can keep my reds current and buy and keep the arris. So the reds always top of the line and the arris I just keep buying new ones and get to shift older units to personal cameras or donate them to institutions. I like that I can buy into both business models and offer both to clients. Both have advantages and reds price this time around made a lot of users sell dsmc1. It was the same price to 8k a dragon as an Alexa mini if that gives it some perspective? I'm happy to have both and hopefully one day an SXT
 
Tom Dowler said:
Let's imagine that instead of Red you had initially gone with with Sony or Canon or even Arri. They all release new cameras with new form factors three times as frequently as Red does, and there's NO upgrade path.
Click to expand...

Not entirely true, actually. ARRI does have a kind of trade-in program and some upgrade possibilities (granted, not at all to the extend that RED have) they're just not super open-mouthed about it. For me, though, going with an Alexa would've made a lot more sense financially in my market but that's a whole other story that relates to me being in a very conservative market and some clever marketing work by ARRI.

Tom Dowler said:
i honestly don't understand what your expectation is here. That Red should develop new, better cameras and you should get it for next t nothing? That's preposterous.
Click to expand...

Did I say that? No.

Tom Dowler said:
If if the upgrade doesn't make financial sense for you that's one thing but don't play it off as some ripoff scheme. Be grateful there's any upgrade path.
Click to expand...

Don't put words into my mouth like that - I didn't say that. Don't get my wrong, I'm super happy there is an actual upgrade path - and if I could afford it I would definitely have kept upgrading but currently that's just not possible as the camera upgrade price just doesn't justify me doing that because at this point what I get image-wise out of the Weapon is only marginally better compared to my Epic Dragon. The jump from the RED ONE body to the Epic body was a huge leap - the jump from Epic Dragon to Weapon Dragon isn't (though I really love how the modularity of Weapon finally seems to work like it should have for Epic).
 
Jarred Land said:
Love you too man but that isn't a fair statement. If you signed up for the Weapon upgrade depending where you went from and where you were going to your upgrade price should of been very close to what you paid to go from your R1 to Epic, And that includes $5000 of new accessories to make the whole "nothing works anymore" problem go away... i.e. the obsolescence.


So the Weapon MG trade in package that includes the new accessories you need is $ 29.5k Minus whatever version of Epic you have , ( lets say Epic-X to compare equally the bottom of the Epic line to the bottom of the Weapon line) , we are giving you $15,500 of trade in credit so you are paying $14,000 total for a new camera that includes all new accessories that a new customer would pay $30k just for the brain alone . I don't know how that's a worse deal than what you paid along the way ( similar to your own words " amazing deal " to go from R1 to Epic" ) and I don't know how that is not just an incredibly great program.

Of course if you are talking about going from the bottom Epic all the way to the top Weapon Forged, you will pay substantially more but that camera costs twice as much as the Epic MG package so it's not fair for you to expect an equal jump.
Click to expand...

Well, fuck me ... I just read all the fine print after having logged into RED.com about the trade-in program. So the price is $29.500 and if I upgraded to the Weapon Mg I'd get $13.000 discount which would mean the upgrade package would cost me $16.500 including basic accessories listed in the "included" tab. That's actually a pretty fucking awesome deal. Please slap me next time you see me. I'm going to jump off the Stratosphere Tower now...
 
Yea MG plus mag trade in deal isn't bad and you save on DIT cost by not needing rocket X typically now or transcode services or black shade down time, etc. there's def some justification to go for it, but also lots of cheap demc1 used stuff so you can't lose either way really? Though if arris better for your market as you said Alexa classic used is cheap these days and mini isn't too much new for the 4/3 sensor and raw vs legacy 4/3 and raw costs.. Lots of good options all around!
 
End of warranty period.:smiley:
 
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