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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Obsolescence obsolete...

Milan S. said:
The problem is that the Red modules that are on the market now will not be compatible with the new camera as I understand, other than the lens mounts.
I would have switched to the mini mags yesterday if the side SSD module would work with the new camera.
None of the rear mounted modules would work with it either as I understand?
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Red has so much tied up in the ecosystem too. Might that be reason enough to keep producing the legacy cams and gear for an extended period? They are still so viable...
 
David Battistella said:
Have you folks been looking at and testing the STH dragon with dragon color2 and Redlog film?

It's a pretty fantastic combination and withthesimple addition of just about any LUt you like in Resolve with stunning one lights.
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Pretty amazing results straight out of the camera. I often have hard time persuading producers and directors to spend money on a proper grade because if you light it good, the Dragon color science delivers in spades.
 
Scott Crawley said:
Red has so much tied up in the ecosystem too. Might that be reason enough to keep producing the legacy cams and gear for an extended period? They are still so viable...
Click to expand...

I think it would be great to standardize the module connectors and stick with it, all the modules I bought still have plenty of life and functionality left in them.

Plus, I don't need any more paper weights. ;)
 
Ed David said:
Actually this is not entirely true - the DVX100 coupled with the 35mm lens adapters like the P+S Techniq Mini35 and Pro 35 on the Panasonic Varicam and Sony F900 and also the Guerrilla 35 (G35) then Redrock M2 then Letus 35mm adapter was the start of change, then the Canon 5d Mark II and Panasonic HVX200 then Pansonic AF100 along with the Red One MX help to lower the cost of high-end 35mm sensors. But really it was the Canon 5d Mark II with a full frame sensor able to do 30 FPS h.264 quicktime files that started to change everything. Before this camera, the F35, Panavision Genesis. Thompson Viper and the Arri D21 was also heavily used. Fincher used the Viper on two films I believe and they look incredibly filmic and he also is quoted in American Cinematographer as saying he prefers the grain pattern of the Red One MX (my favorite Red Camera) over the Red Epic, but I digress.

The Red One MX when it came in did help create change, but it's not the sole reason the industry now exists where you can get even get unbelievable images from a Samsung NX1 $1500 mirrorless camera with completely flexible firmware that records to h.265 technology.

Red helped, but someone could easily argue the Canon 5d Mark II was the biggest trojan horse in modern 35mm motion camera nerd democratization technology. And now someone just shot a film that premiered at Sundance that is getting critical acclaim on their iphone with an anamorphic adapter.
Click to expand...

Your history shows selective memory as well as selective amnesia. At the NAB - 2008, I believe it was - after RED released the RED ONE began to truly be a mass produced camera - the floor was covered in RED ONES. RED had gone from upstart to ubiquity in one year, upon its release. That is a massive and deliberate achievement. Whereas Canon has even said that it released its first hybrid cameras to better serve its base of photojournalists - to give em a little bit of video functionality to supplement their stills. The is fact that indies took this up as a replacement for kludgy 35mm adapters strapped to camcorders - Nikon (nobody even really counts Nikon in the recounting of history) and then Canon set out to do one thing and did something even they did not anticipate. There are really three revolutions which happened - the 35mm revolution - great, let's credit all those pioneers of adapters P+S, Letus, etc etc and the still camera companies. RED is just part of this mix.

Next - let's acknowledge who has championed high resolution - better than than 1080p as a replacement for film - in this, RED stands alone. Everyone else has followed. Extra props to BlackMagic for kickstarting affordable UHD for the masses - even outpacing RED on pure price point and pushing things along fast.

Now everyone is doing it. This simply wasn't the case in 2007-08.

And finally, let's acknowledge RAW - there are certainly predecessors to RED here - but none mass-produced and none affordable, and none with onboard recording. RED did that.

RED led in 3 imaging revolutions - and for awhile, pretty much stood alone in 2 out of three. Those are now done. They are so done that they don't seem revolutionary anymore.

What are we in the middle of right now. Drones and gimbals - RED is now being mimicked for size by the Alexa Mini, don't even try to pretend that the Mini is anything but a giant steal from RED - carbon fibre, interchangeable lens mounts, short boxy form factor for better balance).

Wifi control - Redlink, Hotlink, foolcontrol - show me tools that are equal to these from other manufacturers at similar price points - GoPro is probably the most even match, to date.

Size, form factor - Weapon is going to kick ass on this account. Let's wait and see. But I'm betting it sets a new standard for the amount of power packed into size.

And here's one more difference. By now, buying an Alexa straight up or paying for RED upgrades are beginning to converge. It took eight years for this to happen, if you were on board from the beginning. It's no contest - I think of the RED upgrade program as RED giving me a no-interest financing package. Every kit I have bought to date paid itself off before the next upgrade. I could not have done this with an Alexa because I would have had to cough up $50K - either in cash or financed WITH INTEREST!

Even if they are converging in price point, eight years later, you had eight years to pay it off! With no interest and no creditor.

I think Phil said it best. RED is in charge of innovation. We are in charge of our businesses and how we use the tools to make money.

If it's not making money for you, you should hop off the carousel. I have a SCARLET that I am keeping MX because in my smaller market, there are a lot of opportunities for it to work at lower tier pricing - and it's PAID OFF already. No need to upgrade when it's still a baby cash cow and continues to work. It is far from obsolete.
 
RED's stated goal, from the beginning, was to create a digital camera that could replace film. They started on that path in late 2006 and have been pursuing it ever since. There can be arguments as to whether they achieved it with Epic or Dragon (Jim himself, IIRC, didn't think RED One had quite accomplished the mission) but I think it is safe to say they are there. Of course, that doesn't mean they will quit innovating. How great is that?!
 
Scott Crawley said:
Red has so much tied up in the ecosystem too. Might that be reason enough to keep producing the legacy cams and gear for an extended period? They are still so viable...
Click to expand...

Of course we are... Epic Dragon and Scarlet Dragon will remain in the line for quite some time.
 
Jarred Land said:
Of course we are... Epic Dragon and Scarlet Dragon will remain in the line for quite some time.
Click to expand...


THAT is reassuring to many owners-especially owner ops.

Might I be so bold to suggest putting that in a prominent location...say post #1 of this thread or so...

Thank you very much

Fury
 
Thinking about it Obsolesce Obsolete ONLY applies to the camera. A typical set up of modules can cost close to the same as the camera itself, especially with a 4k broadcast module. Some work some don't - would be good to get a handle on this as soon as possible.

So Obsolesce Obsolete is a true statement applied to the camera. Just good to be aware of RED store modules suddenly getting labelled as legacy.
 
Ed David said:
Actually this is not entirely true - the DVX100 coupled with the 35mm lens adapters like the P+S Techniq Mini35 and Pro 35 on the Panasonic Varicam and Sony F900 and also the Guerrilla 35 (G35) then Redrock M2 then Letus 35mm adapter was the start of change, then the Canon 5d Mark II and Panasonic HVX200 then Pansonic AF100 along with the Red One MX help to lower the cost of high-end 35mm sensors. But really it was the Canon 5d Mark II with a full frame sensor able to do 30 FPS h.264 quicktime files that started to change everything. Before this camera, the F35, Panavision Genesis. Thompson Viper and the Arri D21 was also heavily used. Fincher used the Viper on two films I believe and they look incredibly filmic and he also is quoted in American Cinematographer as saying he prefers the grain pattern of the Red One MX (my favorite Red Camera) over the Red Epic, but I digress.

The Red One MX when it came in did help create change, but it's not the sole reason the industry now exists where you can get even get unbelievable images from a Samsung NX1 $1500 mirrorless camera with completely flexible firmware that records to h.265 technology.

Red helped, but someone could easily argue the Canon 5d Mark II was the biggest trojan horse in modern 35mm motion camera nerd democratization technology. And now someone just shot a film that premiered at Sundance that is getting critical acclaim on their iphone with an anamorphic adapter.
Click to expand...

Ed, think Raw brother.
 
Jeffrey M said:
Jarred,
People complained that Apple changed the charging cable. Apple didn't do it just to be dicks- that cable needed to evolve.
I wouldn't waste your breath on the people who complain. Most of us Red owners joined the party to be on the forefront of technology. Technology doesn't wait. How long ago did the Red One come out with 4K? It's 2015 and you still can't buy a 4K camera from Arri.
Click to expand...


Please tell me why my 3 month old Redvolt XL module needs to evolve?

I've been through all the Red upgrades so far, let those long time customers with legitimate concerns and questions speak up if you don't have anything constructive to contribute to the discussion.

Cheers,

Milan
 
There is a lot of concern about so-called legacy modules becoming obsolete as soon as Weapon explodes on the scene (see, I can roll with jargon, too), but consider this:

At best, Weapon is probably not going to start to be delivered until late summer. If RED's history is any guide, those first cameras will go out to folks who can more or less beta test them. No one is going to be compelled to sign up for the upgrade immediately and once you do, it will probably still be many months before delivery is rolling along with 1-2 week lead times. So, given what the real world schedule is likely to be, any Dragon owner could still have at least 12 and maybe as many as 24 months (or more?) to get use from the various modules that will eventually have to be left behind.

BUT (!), even when that happens, all the old Scarlets and Epics and Dragons will still be out there and still be capable of using those old modules. Now, will prices fall for that used equipment over time? Sure, but not until you've gotten a lot of use out of them and they won't suddenly become worthless.

Food for thought.
 
If this is just a body change out with some extra plugs, maybe it's a touch lighter? Maybe the fan is quieter? Maybe the camera guts and sensor itself have only minor benefits , say... Slightly faster ISO or FPS advantages. ? If so... I may stay as I am for a while longer.
I'm so happy with my Dragons as they are at the moment. Other than wanting my red volts to last 3 hours ( which we all know is impossible ) I've honestly , I've never been stuck on set. ( other than wanting super Slomo. )
I feel like I want to milk a couple more years out of them before I move on. Only because they are simply awesome already.
Anyone else thinking the same. ?

That said ......
If the changes are huge ! Like being able to shoot at 20000 ISO / 500 Fps ... Take my money now.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
BUT (!), even when that happens, all the old Scarlets and Epics and Dragons will still be out there and still be capable of using those old modules. Now, will prices fall for that used equipment over time? Sure, but not until you've gotten a lot of use out of them and they won't suddenly become worthless.
Click to expand...

Which is the reason I suggested this as a viable solution to the problem:

TRADE A RIG PROGRAM

...maybe RDC can offer a program to TRADE A RIG for the battle tested market. This program could be based on how we utilize our cams, taking into consideration the RED accessories we require to keep us working. Based on the accessories in our current arsenal, maybe RDC would allow us to port EPIC accessories to new equivalent WEAPON accessories where possible. Undoubtedly, there will be areas where the need for a replacement module will be rendered moot -- as in the +1. For those buying into DRAGON rather than moving to WEAPON, some of those BT accessories/modules will certainly come in handy for expanding production abilities.

In that case, we could have a win/win. Whether you are upgrading to WEAPON or DRAGON, you would either retain your present level of capability, or potentially gain more in the case of DRAGON upgrades. It would take some organization and oversight, but this might be one way to allay fears surrounding accessories.

People get too worked up over small problems. How do you guys manage your sets? ;)

That last jab was not directed at anyone in particular. The point is: be solution-oriented. Quit whining.
 
Mark Toia said:
If this is just a body change out with some extra plugs, maybe it's a touch lighter? Maybe the fan is quieter? Maybe the camera guts and sensor itself have only minor benefits , say... Slightly faster ISO or FPS advantages. ? If so... I may stay as I am for a while longer.
I'm so happy with my Dragons as they are at the moment. Other than wanting my red volts to last 3 hours ( which we all know is impossible ) I've honestly , I've never been stuck on set. ( other than wanting super Slomo. )
I feel like I want to milk a couple more years out of them before I move on. Only because they are simply awesome already.
Anyone else thinking the same. ?

That said ......
If the changes are huge ! Like being able to shoot at 20000 ISO / 500 Fps ... Take my money now.
Click to expand...

with you!


It is the big difference now would be the most high iso ( dual iso) :) , ND integrated,slow motion 6k 500 fps.




if this were the case, I'll update everything at once :)




WELCOME come back Jim :)
 
RED is about family as much as anything. Let's act like one.
 
Eryc Tramonn said:
Which is the reason I suggested this as a viable solution to the problem:

TRADE A RIG PROGRAM

...maybe RDC can offer a program to TRADE A RIG for the battle tested market. This program could be based on how we utilize our cams, taking into consideration the RED accessories we require to keep us working. Based on the accessories in our current arsenal, maybe RDC would allow us to port EPIC accessories to new equivalent WEAPON accessories where possible. Undoubtedly, there will be areas where the need for a replacement module will be rendered moot -- as in the +1. For those buying into DRAGON rather than moving to WEAPON, some of those BT accessories/modules will certainly come in handy for expanding production abilities.

In that case, we could have a win/win. Whether you are upgrading to WEAPON or DRAGON, you would either retain your present level of capability, or potentially gain more in the case of DRAGON upgrades. It would take some organization and oversight, but this might be one way to allay fears surrounding accessories.

People get too worked up over small problems. How do you guys manage your sets? ;)

That last jab was not directed at anyone in particular. The point is: be solution-oriented. Quit whining.
Click to expand...


It's a nice idea in theory, but it does transfer much of the risk and a good deal of transactional work from being spread among the universe of RED owners to the company itself. Seems like a logistical nightmare to me. But, hey, if they're up for it... :-)
 
Mark Toia said:
Anyone else thinking the same. ?
Click to expand...
I'm still on MX and thinking the same! Not that I don't yearn for what RED has up their sleeve, but it speaks a lot to me that I sit here with an MX sensor still impressed with what it can capture! RED has earned my loyalty but I need to really see a generational step up to buy into the latest and greatest (as a owner/operator, rental I'm sure is a different story)
I am excited to see Weapon, if it makes sense economically I will go in for Dragon>Weapon but I have to wait to see what the details are.
 
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