Obsolescence obsolete...

[BrendanLeahy]

Further, now that the upgrades for a five year old camera are going to stop, what does that make the camera?
I believe the word is "obsolete". All good things must come to an end.

You ask me to suggest another system?

Sure. Stay camera agnostic and accept the following:

Your camera is disposable.
it's already obsolete.

Get used to it. Embrace it. Enjoy it.

And try to not spend $50K for what you can get for $10K while you are at it.

Really? A five-year-old Epic camera is going to become obsolete? People are still being hired to use their RED Ones on shoots, and those are what, nine years old?

I don't see anyone shooting with HVXs or any other DV tape cameras anymore.

RED has always been ahead of the game here. Others have posted how freaking amazing it is you can still use the new LUTs on old footage as well to improve it.

If what you're arguing is that you want to be confined to one body and have RED keep improving upon that one, then the competition will catch up. You can only cram so much awesomeness into a little aluminum housing before the the Dragon outgrows its cave. RED is giving the it a new home where it can spread its wings.

The DR, the resolution, and color science is all there for you now. When do you think others will catch up to just the Epic-MX or Epic-Dragon in it's current body? Years - even then, you'll still have that fantastic "RED" feeling.

I used to shoot almost everything on 5D Mark II - natural transition from when the camera came out while I was in college to using it in start-up business work. I do practically nothing on it now. Everyone and their mother has DSLR that can do video - even damn camera phones outpace these Canon cameras.

I jumped ship in 2012 to snag the Scarlet, and haven't looked back. I'll use the camera even when the budget might not call for it because I want to provide my clients with the best available.

Sure, Canon came out with a dedicated DSLR at "4K". Then, they made a cinema line, but you're getting 1080p, low DR, and would be selling off/buying a new camera every 2-3 years.

You think RED's strategy of new accessories is selling us "fries" to make some quick cash? RED has been revolutionary - MODULAR cameras?! What an insane concept that's turned out to work incredibly well. I'd rather have the option to swap out as technology improves on the little things rather than have my 3" LCD fixed in the worst position possible (and Canon's solution? Buy the next-gen camera where they fixed it!)

The sweet news is if you stick with your R1, Epic, or Scarlet, there's a wealth of DSMC gear you can grab now and from the used market if stuff dies out on you. You don't need to buy a whole new camera if a part fails.

We have the best tools at our fingertips because of Jim, Jarred, and the insanely great engineers, programmers, reps, and tech support behind them. I have a long way to go with my work, but I will say the cameras only become obsolete once you start giving up on your story + craft.

I normally try to keep my posts fun + lighthearted, and ask questions with an open mind to understand and pivot as necessary. This post, however, bugged me, and I will not apologize for writing a passionate response to someone who criticizes when they can't see what's in front of them.

 

[Clayton Burkhart]

Really? A five-year-old Epic camera is going to become obsolete? People are still being hired to use their RED Ones on shoots, and those are what, nine years old?

I don't see anyone shooting with HVXs or any other DV tape cameras anymore.

RED has always been ahead of the game here. Others have posted how freaking amazing it is you can still use the new LUTs on old footage as well to improve it.

If what you're arguing is that you want to be confined to one body and have RED keep improving upon that one, then the competition will catch up. You can only cram so much awesomeness into a little aluminum housing before the the Dragon outgrows its cave. RED is giving the it a new home where it can spread its wings.

The DR, the resolution, and color science is all there for you now. When do you think others will catch up to just the Epic-MX or Epic-Dragon in it's current body? Years - even then, you'll still have that fantastic "RED" feeling.

I used to shoot almost everything on 5D Mark II - natural transition from when the camera came out while I was in college to using it in start-up business work. I do practically nothing on it now. Everyone and their mother has DSLR that can do video - even damn camera phones outpace these Canon cameras.

I jumped ship in 2012 to snag the Scarlet, and haven't looked back. I'll use the camera even when the budget might not call for it because I want to provide my clients with the best available.

Sure, Canon came out with a dedicated DSLR at "4K". Then, they made a cinema line, but you're getting 1080p, low DR, and would be selling off/buying a new camera every 2-3 years.

You think RED's strategy of new accessories is selling us "fries" to make some quick cash? RED has been revolutionary - MODULAR cameras?! What an insane concept that's turned out to work incredibly well. I'd rather have the option to swap out as technology improves on the little things rather than have my 3" LCD fixed in the worst position possible (and Canon's solution? Buy the next-gen camera where they fixed it!)

The sweet news is if you stick with your R1, Epic, or Scarlet, there's a wealth of DSMC gear you can grab now and from the used market if stuff dies out on you. You don't need to buy a whole new camera if a part fails.

We have the best tools at our fingertips because of Jim, Jarred, and the insanely great engineers, programmers, reps, and tech support behind them. I have a long way to go with my work, but I will say the cameras only become obsolete once you start giving up on your story + craft.

I normally try to keep my posts fun + lighthearted, and ask questions with an open mind to understand and pivot as necessary. This post, however, bugged me, and I will not apologize for writing a passionate response to someone who criticizes when they can't see what's in front of them.

I see just fine what's in front of me.
Otherwise I wouldn't be a cinematographer.
I remain however, camera agnostic.
The right camera for the right job, and at the right price.

Jannard's post suggest that he has gone through only four or five cameras for only $43K.
Sorry, but that seems more than a little exaggerated for the reasons I have already stated.
in order to use those cameras, he would have needed to spend a good deal more on accessories and you know it.

 

[Milan S.]

This is RED's modular strategy. If you see it and understand it, then why do you keep claiming they're just trying to make a quick buck off selling "fries"?

With all due respect, there's validity in his argument.

I've been here since R1 and I'll be still here when the Weapon comes out because I love the camera. But I also have plenty of not very old Red modules and accessories that are already obsolete or are about to become obsolete.

 

[Elsie N]

I see just fine what's in front of me.
Otherwise I wouldn't be a cinematographer.
I remain however, camera agnostic.
The right camera for the right job, and at the right price.

Jannard's post suggest that he has gone through only four or five cameras for only $43K.
Sorry, but that seems more than a little exaggerated for the reasons I have already stated.
in order to use those cameras, he would have needed to spend a good deal more on accessories and you know it.

When I got my two Epic MXs (after trading in my R-1s) I received all the accessories I needed (free, I might add) to immediately operate the camera.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Bitter? What on earth would I have to be bitter about?
Let's just say "realistic" instead.

Interesting that if one choses not to always drink the RED kool-aid, they are considered bitter.

I have a question for you. How long do you think it will be before the "upgrades" here cost more than the virtually the same technology in a single unified body from another camera manufacturer?

Or has it already arrived?

Do you think this is not lost on Jannard?

Some other questions.

How much are you in for, in terms of accessories beyond a "brain" for $25,000? $15-20K more?
This is a marketing dream, but is that kind of expense really sustainable in today's technological environment?

Were the accessories for the RED One carried over into the Epic/Scarlet system?

If the next upgrade is for the body, what do you think the chances are that you will be able to use most of the accessories you bought are?

That's the fries, Mr. Tramonn. That's the fries.

Further, now that the upgrades for a five year old camera are going to stop, what does that make the camera?
I believe the word is "obsolete". All good things must come to an end.

You ask me to suggest another system?

Sure. Stay camera agnostic and accept the following:

Your camera is disposable.
it's already obsolete.

Get used to it. Embrace it. Enjoy it.

And try to not spend $50K for what you can get for $10K while you are at it.

I wasn't being cheeky, sir. It was a genuine question. I was not saying that your statements are "bitter" in actuality, but only that they read as such. I should have chosen a different word to alert you to that. My apologies if I offended you.

You have every right to voice your criticisms. Message boards are terrific for that. But at a certain point, we have to move past the criticism and offer constructive solutions to the problems. Obstacles are everywhere in life, and generating solutions to our problems are what make us into the individuals we aspire to be. Empty quibbling does little to solve anything. I would prefer to brainstorm with you for solutions that might positively affect us all.

Is the RED system perfect? No. Jim knows that. Anyone who uses any system for work will find areas where things can be improved. That could be stated of virtually anything. And further, Jim readily admits RED is learning as it moves ahead. I doubt anyone would refute the idea that technology is a game of iterative development.

Plus, your current camera and accessories will not suddenly cease to function with the release of an upgrade. When a particular iteration of the tool has arrived at a sufficient level of capability for a particular use case, we are all free to stop participating in upgrades at any point in that process. But that is an individual determination. Only you can determine when that point is -- making those decisions based on your personal level of solvency, prospective clients, workflow, etc.

On one hand, customers impugn RED for "ill-conceived design," but when RED listens to the feedback from its user base and moves to implement design improvements, the same community brings out the pitchforks. I don't blame the leadership for not wanting to deal with that. Quite honestly, we are fortunate they are as open as they are. If I was a tad more capable, I would offer to buy your camera, and I'm not joking.

And you're right, I have put a lot of capital into the RED ecosystem. And no, I do NOT come from a privileged background, or have access to unlimited wealth to support shoddy business decisions. The camera system works. As a matter of fact, I flew my DRAGON just last week for the same corporate fry maker you referenced. And if you knew me, you would also know how incredible that is. In my particular case, and on numerous levels, I owe a large measure of my success to RED and the tools that they have produced. If that has me wallowing in "Kool-aid," so be it.

A better response might have been: RED should offer a trade-in/credit program for accessories that cannot migrate to the coming WEAPON platform. OR RED could offer accessory credits based on the fitness of individual accessories. OR [INSERT YOUR IDEAS HERE]

I use my camera as a tool for work, and for personal expression. I am not being flippant. On the contrary, I am attempting to find solutions to problems that are being forecast to impact us all. At present, I am reading a lot of bickering about a camera that few people know anything about. And for all the negativity/problems being generated, I have read very few people offer quantifiable solutions.

All the best,

Eryc

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Crazy thing is I'm still using a R1MX with great results. Bought it during that battle tested special a few years ago. There's a lot of life in these cameras.

EXACTLY.

Some people get it. Others won't.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

When I got my two Epic MXs (after trading in my R-1s) I received all the accessories I needed (free, I might add) to immediately operate the camera.

Still got jokes, Elsie. Haha.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Jim knows when more is more, and he knows when less is more. It shows in the product.

Perhaps he could have been cynical and priced RED cameras more than Arri's. Doesn't Giorgio Armani say that price is a feature? If it's more expensive, it becomes more desirable, so people believe. And there's some truth in that. But if RED cameras were overpriced, the only beneficiaries would be rental houses, not owner-operators.

Apple could have priced the iPhone and iPad higher. But they didn't, and rightly so.

 

[Will H Stewart]

I used to shoot almost everything on 5D Mark II - natural transition from when the camera came out while I was in college to using it in start-up business work. I do practically nothing on it now. Everyone and their mother has DSLR that can do video - even damn camera phones outpace these Canon cameras.

I was really getting into what you said until you wrote that a camera phone is better than a 5D Mark II. LOL

 

[Antony Newman]

A powerful concept so succinctly put - what person wouldn't be inspired to believe in themselves after reading this?

I hope one day to venture out to NAB; to shake the hands of those who champion the masses and catalyse our dreams.

AJ

<snip>
The Hobbit. Avatar 2, 3 and 4. Ridley Scott. David Fincher. You.

Jim

 

[Elsie N]

Still got jokes, Elsie. Haha.

It's true... but was only for early adopters.

Stage 2 and Stage 3.

 

[BrendanLeahy]

I was really getting into what you said until you wrote that a camera phone is better than a 5D Mark II. LOL

Hah! Sorry, I wanted to keep elaborating on subpoints of subpoints, but the post became too long. I just feel like to some degree, camera phones can do now what the 5DII was doing back in 2008 (and post-firmware updates for 24p etc).

Those systems stall out, whereas RED has managed to create something that keeps rolling. I'd rather get credit towards a new camera body with my semi-new sensor than tell us to buy the new camera and sell our old one at a fraction of original cost.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

It's true... but was only for early adopters.

Stage 2 and Stage 3.

Ahh, I see. Well, while that is very cool in your case as an early adopter, unfortunately that will not apply to many reading along. That stated, your example is obviously a strong testament to how RED treats its customerbase and underscores the loyalty program.

 

[Clayton Burkhart]

I wasn't being cheeky, sir. It was a genuine question. I was not saying that your statements are "bitter" in actuality, but only that they read as such. I should have chosen a different word to alert you to that. My apologies if I offended you.

You have every right to voice your criticisms. Message boards are terrific for that. But at a certain point, we have to move past the criticism and offer constructive solutions to the problems. Obstacles are everywhere in life, and generating solutions to our problems are what make us into the individuals we aspire to be. Empty quibbling does little to solve anything. I would prefer to brainstorm with you for solutions that might positively affect us all.

Is the RED system perfect? No. Jim knows that. Anyone who uses any system for work will find areas where things can be improved. That could be stated of virtually anything. And further, Jim readily admits RED is learning as it moves ahead. I doubt anyone would refute the idea that technology is a game of iterative development.

Plus, your current camera and accessories will not suddenly cease to function with the release of an upgrade. When a particular iteration of the tool has arrived at a sufficient level of capability for a particular use case, we are all free to stop participating in upgrades at any point in that process. But that is an individual determination. Only you can determine when that point is -- making those decisions based on your personal level of solvency, prospective clients, workflow, etc.

On one hand, customers impugn RED for "ill-conceived design," but when RED listens to the feedback from its user base and moves to implement design improvements, the same community brings out the pitchforks. I don't blame the leadership for not wanting to deal with that. Quite honestly, we are fortunate they are as open as they are. If I was a tad more capable, I would offer to buy your camera, and I'm not joking.

And you're right, I have put a lot of capital into the RED ecosystem. And no, I do NOT come from a privileged background, or have access to unlimited wealth to support shoddy business decisions. The camera system works. As a matter of fact, I flew my DRAGON just last week for the same corporate fry maker you referenced. And if you knew me, you would also know how incredible that is. In my particular case, and on numerous levels, I owe a large measure of my success to RED and the tools that they have produced. If that has me wallowing in "Kool-aid," so be it.

A better response might have been: RED should offer a trade-in/credit program for accessories that cannot migrate to the coming WEAPON platform. OR RED could offer accessory credits based on the fitness of individual accessories. OR [INSERT YOUR IDEAS HERE]

I use my camera as a tool for work, and for personal expression. I am not being flippant. On the contrary, I am attempting to find solutions to problems that are being forecast to impact us all. At present, I am reading a lot of bickering about a camera that few people know anything about. And for all the negativity/problems being generated, I have read very few people offer quantifiable solutions.

All the best,

Eryc

Thanks Eryc, I did misconstrue your comments. My apologies as well.

i guess what I have been trying to say is that in this kind of technological environment, brand loyalty is everything.
However, I try not to confuse brand loyalty with brand quality or brand value. I don't question the quality, but I do question the value.

Everything around RED is constructed in order to further brand loyalty, including this forum, and the notion of some great heroic battle being fought against "conventionality". Sometimes it almost feels like a siege mentality, mixed in with army fatigues and nato rails. Nothing brings people together better than perceived adversity, even if it is artificial. Seem to be working very well judging by some of the attitudes I see here. Just when I thought that kind of stuff was fading too...anyhow that is another topic.

So there are two things I question here. The first is the necessity for an upgrade to the body without an upgrade to the sensor. Why not wait until the next sensor is ready? Why not allow those accessories of yours to have an extra chance to pay for themselves? Why not allow your camera to maintain it's value a little bit longer? For me the answer is obvious. The next greatest thing is what everyone chases after and pays top dollar for. So if you want people to keep paying a decent rate for your equipment, you have to keep updating, even if the market cycle is artificial and inflated.

The other thing I question is the sustainabliliy of a $40-50K investment in terms of "buying in" pricing and a rolling forward every 12-18 months of another $10K. I think the truth is that we will soon (if not already) be having cameras that cost less fully configured than the upgrade from RED, without having much if any quality loss at all. I think that RED must be aware of this, so I wonder if the next "box" that comes from RED will not only not be modular, but a total departure from the accessories you currently own. That would also be a departure from the current business model. It might actually follow the more conventional "all in one solutions" out there and therefore also be cheaper. Which would definitely piss a lot of people off. So I don't see this "upgrade" therefore as really a leap forward for you and me. It seems more like "corporate guidance", a warning that your system is about to lose a lot of value and a means for which brand loyalty can be maintained, by allowing you to roll forward to the next product. Something I question that we really need. So be prepared.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

The rigors of professional production often place substantial demands on our gear to provide Swiss Army-like solutions within a single system. And I don't know of another system that offers 6K acquisition, high frames, high DR, frame processing schemas, allow me to strip to dash cam, re-rig for studio production, and then 30 mins later be hitched to a MoVi M5 for flight over rolling pastures.

Yes, to achieve that level of capability and versatility, I have also needed to invest in various AKS for the system. Although not really RED's concern, maybe RDC can offer a program to TRADE A RIG for the battle tested market. This program could be based on how we utilize our cams, taking into consideration the RED accessories we require to keep us working, and then port those to new equivalent WEAPON accessories where possible. There will likely be areas where the need for a replacement module will be rendered moot -- as in the +1. For those buying into DRAGON rather than moving to WEAPON, some of those accessories will certainly come in handy for expanding their production abilities.

I'm sure Jim would do that in a heartbeat. Look at what he already has done. I don't tease this guy by calling him Santa Claus/Batman for nothing. Implying that Jim is schilling accessories like some movie-esque used car salesman in a 70's, polyester JCPenney suit is unfounded, and offensive. But a funny image nonetheless. Haha.

 

[Elsie N]

Ahh, I see. Well, while that is very cool in your case as an early adopter, unfortunately that will not apply to many reading along. That stated, your example is obviously a strong testament to how RED treats its customerbase and underscores the loyalty program.

That's why it is so unsettling to see Jim's (and now Jarred's) veracity and/or good intentions questioned.

And now the transition-assists continue (with media ugrades etc.) not to mention that they are opening up the adopters-program to include any and all Dragon owners. Maybe that helps some of the customers who joined the ride at a later time can understand why there is a fierce loyalty to RDC.

They've been fiercely loyal to us so it's only fair we give back in kind.

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

That's why it is so unsettling to see Jim's (and now Jarred's) veracity and/or good intentions questioned.

And now the transition-assists continue (with media ugrades etc.) not to mention that they are opening up the adopters-program to include any and all Dragon owners. Maybe that helps some of the customers who joined the ride at a later time can understand why there is a fierce loyalty to RDC.

They've been fiercely loyal to us so it's only fair we give back in kind.

Yep.

 

[BrendanLeahy]

Clayton - I do feel like I have to play devil's advocate for a moment and ask several questions of you:

-How often do you have to get hired for a camera you don't know?
-With cameras constantly being released by every other company, do you rent each new one, learn them, and then note to existing/prospective clients that you can now operate those?
-Don't your skills with those cameras eventually become obsolete once new gear comes out that clients want?

I guess from an owner/operator point of view, it feels like there are some advantages to buying into a system that's evolving with upgrades (knowing your camera inside + out, being able to target a specific market wanting that gear + look, etc.).

 

[Eryc Tramonn]

Clayton - I do feel like I have to play devil's advocate for a moment and ask several questions of you:

-How often do you have to get hired for a camera you don't know?
-With cameras constantly being released by every other company, do you rent each new one, learn them, and then note to existing/prospective clients that you can now operate those?
-Don't your skills with those cameras eventually become obsolete once new gear comes out that clients want?

I guess from an owner/operator point of view, it feels like there are some advantages to buying into a system that's evolving with upgrades (knowing your camera inside + out, being able to target a specific market wanting that gear + look, etc.).

Yes, sir. My experience on many sets quickly reveals that owners typically trump renters in the knowledge department. I'm sure I will be impaled for that statement. Bring it. (not you Brendan, referring to others looking to start some ish).

 

[Michael Jensen]

Thank you for leaving us an upgrade path. Again.