Observations...

[Andy White]

Or more to the point, I see an advantage to the form factor change moving forward for new cameras. But for someone who already owns an EPIC, I'm not sure I see value in cross-grading to a different housing. ....If an adapter would address module issues and the two camera options would be functionally identical.

I think you're assuming that Weapon peripherals are backwards compatible (with the use of an adapter)? My view is that the new Weapon tech is Weapon 'only' and adapters are for legacy tech to work on the Weapon.

The point of a Weapon body upgrade would be to (hopefully) get some new tech inside that would mean, despite it still being an 'old' Dragon at it's core, the new hybrid Dragon/Weapon will function as a full Weapon (minus Prores and other big ticket stuff) in terms of 'most' peripherals (some that are tuned for higher functionality, would, obviously, not work).

Ultimately, it depends what (if any!) type of upgrade/cross-grade is offered - and how much is simply old tech inside a new body, vs new tech in a new body (albeit without some of the higher powered functionality).

 

[Mendes Nabil]

Some people will call me crazy but, i feel like this is the perfect time to introduce the "Real Red indie cinema camera" called the Weapon lite:

Aluminium Weapon body, 4k dragon sensor at 25fps Max,

no Prores , no High frame rates, no fancy stuff, just a pure indie cinema camera with the basics only at a 10k$ price ..

 

[Matt Hall]

We are just spitballing here... but a pure form-factor upgrade from Epic to Weapon in aluminum form isn't the worst idea in the world.

Ears Open...

red is the best company ever

 

[Scott C]

We are just spitballing here... but a pure form-factor upgrade from Epic to Weapon in aluminum form isn't the worst idea in the world.

Ears Open...

That's really cool Jarred. Glad to see you guys are still flexible enough to listen to feedback like this. I think a more affordable entry point into the Weapon ecosystem would net a bunch of new (old) customers. I have been critical of how things shaped up this week but I'm not too proud to say I would love an excuse to get onboard with the new camera. Especially if going to 8K VV could still be in the picture down the road.

If there was a chance to make this work, I would put down the 10K on VV today just to save myself the cash, and use my savings to upgrade internals appropriately when the time came.

Just my .02, thanks for listening.

 

[Martin Stevens]

We are just spitballing here... but a pure form-factor upgrade from Epic to Weapon in aluminum form isn't the worst idea in the world.

Ears Open...

I would love a WEAPON in Aluminum, but would this body be eligible for newer S35 size sensors when they come out?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

It depends if we can have no blackshading.

We still have black shading even on CF Weapon. Weapon doesn't require black shading as often, nor does it need it to move within the range of common exposure rates, because it stores a larger set or a more complete black shading profile.

I suppose how important this is depends on your own usage. For those of use accustomed to black shading as we prep, this is a cool new feature, but nothing to spur buying into an upgrade. OTOH, if I regularly rented my camera out to others who forget to black shade or are unfamiliar with the process and subsequently blame me for the camera not performing, then... Who knows, maybe that is a reason to spend on the upgrade.

I think you're assuming that Weapon peripherals are backwards compatible (with the use of an adapter)? My view is that the new Weapon tech is Weapon 'only' and adapters are for legacy tech to work on the Weapon.

No assumptions here, just throwing that out as one possible option -- if it is even at all possible. I'm not sure I understand the desire to make what would be a very lateral move to change form factors on existing cameras. Moving forward, I think if I were looking to add another camera to the fleet and an EPIC would do, I myself would like to buy it in a form factor with full Weapon compatibility. So I do think there is a lot of merit to the idea and this could also be an attractive upgrade to Scarlet owners as well. Current EPIC owners, yeah, still has me a bit puzzled. Let's also not forget that while the Weapon now has a different spec for module expansion, the EPIC/SCARLET DSMC line is here to stay for a while.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Some people will call me crazy but, i feel like this is the perfect time to introduce the "Real Red indie cinema camera" called the Weapon lite:

Aluminium Weapon body, 4k dragon sensor at 25fps Max,

no Prores , no High frame rates, no fancy stuff, just a pure indie cinema camera with the basics only at a 10k$ price ..

What would that offer that Scarlet does not already give us? 4K on the Dragon sensor is smaller than 35mm Academy at only 20.48mm wide.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

We are just spitballing here...

That's the best way!

 

[Mendes Nabil]

What would that offer that Scarlet does not already give us? 4K on the Dragon sensor is smaller than 35mm Academy at only 20.48mm wide.

That would offer a dragon camera at a 10k$ price..

 

[Dr. Sassi]

We are just spitballing here... but a pure form-factor upgrade from Epic to Weapon in aluminum form isn't the worst idea in the world.

Ears Open...

Thanks a lot, Jarred Land!!

I know that RU represents as group with a very wide view of how things should be, but I believe that we share all something in common: Your words, "… who will continue the journey with us" (freely quoted) were ringing in my ears, but the CF or Mg versions of Weapon seemed beyond budget, I guess that is true for a certain amount of people. To not be able move on and not to be part of the next iteration feels weird.

For me, image quality is all I care, then comes anything else. IF I got this week the information correctly, the next sensor will go only into a Weapon body. Hence aluminum is just fine with me. ProRes is not needed for me either. I certainly know that the aluminum version will be available after the current plans of upgrades/trade ins.

Perhaps it makes even more sense to keep the Epic Dragon, if such option exists, and buy in a year the Weapon "indie"

My idea was, and I posted that over a month ago, I like to go with Weapon, and all the parts that won't fit, have to go on a (battle tested?) Scarlet-Dragon in the future. So, I don't have the idea to lose value.

;o)

Thanks for your time.

P.S.: without the ProRes, perhaps... we could have a Weapon with the larger Mags... Just throwing that into the conversation, to really position it into the middle field.

My aluminum requests:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?130606-Announcing-WEAPON-DRAGON-6k-Magnesium&p=1495492&viewfull=1#post1495492

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?130699-Observations&p=1497094&viewfull=1#post1497094

 

[Milan S.]

And your point is?

Maybe I'm being overly obtuse, but it seems that some people are asking for an EPIC Dragon wrapped in the Weapon body, or just a form factor change. What is the point? What if a module adapter for the EPIC and Scarlet were available to allow attachment of the newer Weapon modules? Then there is no need to move laterally to a Weapon camera that isn't a Weapon, but a re-housed EPIC? That was my suggestion. It's a means to tailor existing cameras to the newer ecosystem of the top level offering.

Beyond that, if someone were to buy a Weapon, that doesn't have all the additional processing power or is no better than the current EPIC, then what purpose would that serve? That was the suggestion made earlier in the thread to which I suggested the module adaptor. IMO, to have such an offering -- lower on the scale Weapon camera -- serves no purpose other than to give the immediate outward impression that it's a Weapon (cosmetic) or the ability to use the newer modules (functional, but potentially solvable with a different module adapter).

Or more to the point, I see an advantage to the form factor change moving forward for new cameras. But for someone who already owns an EPIC, I'm not sure I see value in cross-grading to a different housing. ....If an adapter would address module issues and the two camera options would be functionally identical.

I agree completely.

I would love to see Weapon AL but just rehousing current Epic Dragon brains doesn't make any sense other than maybe taking advantage of the new accessories and modules.
It needs to have the Weapon guts in order to be future proof, that's the reason most people are upgrading - not for the cosmetics.

 

[Milan S.]

Well spoken Gavin, I feel the same. I was ready to pull the trigger on another ~$9500-$12000 upgrade on Sunday.

+ 1

 

[Nick Morrison]

We are just spitballing here... but a pure form-factor upgrade from Epic to Weapon in aluminum form isn't the worst idea in the world.

Ears Open...

Love this. Every indie shooter in the world currently on RED (or who doesn't own RED)...would LOVE YOU.

 

[Michael J Brennan]

What I see expressed in Red forum is a manufacturer going to great lengths to maintain its customer base, but some of that base is struggling to afford its product.

Many Red users have had the belief that the manufacturer would forever make upgrades that would be affordable.


So I wonder what compromises are Red making in either features or price of rolling out a new camera that has to maintain the promise of "obsolescence obsolete"?
All these deals and upgrades have to add to the core price.

Just look at the bang for buck for what is on offer in the industry now. Red's original customer base would be thrilled with the price performance of newer kit yet Red are no longer in this market.

Isn't it time to simply introduce a sub $15k Red where obsolescence is guaranteed?

The factoring of obsolescence of plant over time is a sensible foundation to startup a business for aspirational and new guys, rather than misinterpreting the genuine best wishes and encouragement of a manufacturer as a kind of guarantee that upgrades will be affordable.



Mike Brennan

 

[Phil Holland]

What I see expressed in Red forum is a manufacturer going to great lengths to maintain its customer base, but some of that base is struggling to afford its product.

Many Red users have had the belief that the manufacturer would forever make upgrades that would be affordable.

So I wonder what compromises are Red making in either features or price of rolling out a new camera that has to maintain the promise of "obsolescence obsolete"?
All these deals and upgrades have to add to the core price.

Just look at the bang for buck for what is on offer in the industry now. Red's original customer base would be thrilled with the price performance of newer kit yet Red are no longer in this market.

Isnt it time to simply introduce a sub $15k Red where obsolescence is guaranteed?

What you are describing is a Scarlet-X Dragon, though not exactly for the price you are looking for. A bit more expensive than that. But it does shoot 5K FF and is an entry level digital cinema camera.

Then you have RED Epic Dragon which provides a bit more.

Then you have RED Weapon Dragon bodies which provide a bit more still.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

OK, given that no option will make everyone happy, I'd only say that (in my opinion) the principles to use for putting together an additional option would be the following -

a. Address all the recurring and long-standing pain points brought up on this forum again and again. Some of them that I personally feel exist are :
- Blackshading - yes, I put in a lot of time to understand this and the process to do it. But frankly, I never know if I got it right. I'd rather this were handled by the system with a user option only to be used for really off-the-reservation usage situations so when the camera is in the hands of less experienced crews, its not a potential disaster
- OLPF related and gate related - that horrible gate shadow that gets cut off, goldilocks olpf would be sweet, etc
- Sensor artifacts - magenta smears, noise, low-light sensitivity - this performance needs to match Weapon's. Its odd to say that these only get solved for a 'top-of-the-line' camera.
- Fan noise. Enuf said
- Thermal management improvements (outside of any Magnesium-related benefits) - again, odd to say this only is available for a top-of-the-line camera. This should come with a body upgrade.

b. Allow for any new modules build to DSMC V2 standard to work
- I know I'd want the Off-hollywood module for eg., that seems to turn the camera into a size I'd like and offers the i/o I'd like

So the issue then becomes how do you differentiate Weapon from this EPIC+ and SCARLET+ models?

That's a hard one for me without knowing everything here, but the obvious ones seem to be -
- Prores (that'll get upgraded to 4444 or what have you for free at some point when available) and timecode matches RAW files - this would be huge for the prores people and worth the upgrade just for that
- Processing power reliant modules that are not included (or, are not included for free) with EPIC+/SCARLET+ - such as a Broadcast module (principle being these would be the ones prores/broadcast peeps would want)
- WeaponColor / WeaponGamma - a color science that relies on the stronger processing power to deliver a stronger punch or has more flexibility
- Ability to noisereduce in camera should you choose (again, thanks to more processing available)
- Body material (make it high falutin carbon fibre crossed with magnesium with logos in titanium or whatever - premium manufacturing and styling, in other words). You hold it, you know its a weapon.
- Even better thermal management that comes from this high-priced body material
- Priority for upgrading to VistaVision or next sensor coming up
- Longer warranty and premium service (ok, i say this with hesitation, but the principle is you pay more, you get more)

But really, RED has to dig into their roots to find out what it is RED wants to do. The only real feedback here is --
1. Don't leave us behind
2. Do give us an upgrade that brings us upto PAR with the ALEXA crowd, so we don't have to constantly defend the platform (excluding prores - point people to weapon if they want this)

OK, onwards with the script rewrite! Hope there'll be an upgrade decision for me to wrestle with in due time. I welcome it.

 

[Jarred Land]

Hey Jeff... module adapter isn't a possibility. It is the first thing we wanted to do but the signals are completely different, sent in a different way with different voltages and originating from different sources. It would of needed a FPGA to do even the basic conversions and the module would take alot of power and made everything bigger.. So the penalties were too much.

Of course people can make " mechanical " adapters all day long for some things and 3rd party stuff.. I assume that is happening as we speak.

 

[Peter Stepnoski]

Jim, Jarred, red team.
You are social engineers.
I'm no one of importance, but I understand and recognize a group of individuals whom create a ripple.
That's the greatest compliment I can give.
Congrats and thank you.

 

[Sergio Perez]

I think the "Weapon Raw" is a nice idea. Even though I am going to take the deal to go Weapon Magnesium current (sooner if indeed what is said that the 5000 Credit can be converted to payment of the package) , I think a Weapon Raw only would be great. Most probably redusers are looking for something like this:

1- Raw only to cut costs on the prores encoding. While I would love to have 4k prores in camera, the truth is I have the Rocket X and with GPU's faster and faster, Productions can create proxies on the fly with a laptop, Thunderbolt enclosure and even apply a small look to them in Redcine X.

2- Preserve the variable OLPF and Blackshading improvements, as well as new color science and optimisation of sensor. This is what most Red Epic Dragon users want! Also if possible the low light improvements as well!

3- Make that camera eligible for future Vista Vision upgrade- not immediate, maybe a year from the CF. I'm going to Weapon with full confidence you all will keep me in there with you on the train. Would really like to keep my Weapon body for at least 4 or 5 years, current, and not look at other manufacturers cameras with envy

 

[Phil Holland]

I think the "Weapon Raw" is a nice idea. Even though I am going to take the deal to go Weapon Magnesium current (sooner if indeed what is said that the 5000 Credit can be converted to payment of the package) , I think a Weapon Raw only would be great. Most probably redusers are looking for something like this:

1- Raw only to cut costs on the prores encoding. While I would love to have 4k prores in camera, the truth is I have the Rocket X and with GPU's faster and faster, Productions can create proxies on the fly with a laptop, Thunderbolt enclosure and even apply a small look to them in Redcine X.

2- Preserve the variable OLPF and Blackshading improvements, as well as new color science and optimisation of sensor. This is what most Red Epic Dragon users want! Also if possible the low light improvements as well!

3- Make that camera eligible for future Vista Vision upgrade- not immediate, maybe a year from the CF. I'm going to Weapon with full confidence you all will keep me in there with you on the train. Would really like to keep my Weapon body for at least 4 or 5 years, current, and not look at other manufacturers cameras with envy

Just a couple of thoughts to your points.

1. Removing this will save just a small bit of cash. And there is no faster option than encoding ProRes on the fly. On set this is something that is asked for. A lot. And it's something other cameras RED cameras compete with also do.

2. This costs money. Memory, processing power, and new hardware.

3. This costs money as the 8K Dragon sensor will "need" a good amount of power under the hood to drive.

The logic of just removing ProRes and thinking it's going to save you $15K is not what's going on here.

Weapon is an entirely new internal body design. New processing, more memory, more everything.

Time will tell and RED is listening to feedback. But making a Weapon minus ProRes is a bit odd and it won't save you a considerable amount of dough.