Nov. 3rd take 2...

[Paul Ellington]

mini-primes for EPIC-M/X or scarlet?

 

[Scott Miller]

Remember, this is just a hot shower Epiphany.... So it is not based on anything other than wild wishes, so if I am wishing...

The Mini-Primes are full 5K coverage, non-electronic, other than perhaps passing meta-data. Think Zeiss CP2... But priced within range of sanity and Epic and Scarlet shooters both.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming

 

[John Caballero]

What part of 4k people couldn't understand if the owner of the company says this is the right format and the one they will be producing? He did not say 3K, did he? He said 4K. Why would Scarlet has to be any different? It would not be keeping with the company's profile and real intentions.

 

[Phil Anderson]

I guess the main reasons Scarlet would not be 4k are:

• Several working pre-production models of Scarlet have been seen, handled, touched in public. These were all 3k.
• Red has said several times they won't release Scarlet in beta in any way. It will be virtually problem free. Is there enough time for engineers to make it 4k, and problem free?
• Questions remain regarding marrying 4k to a 2/3" chip, especially as Red has refined, and re-refined Scarlet as 3k.
• Not once has anyone from Red said a single thing about Scarlet being anything other than 3k. The only hints have been Jim saying 4k is the film standard, and nothing less.
• For many, Scarlet is considered the ultimate broadcast, doc, ENG, working production cam. This means 2/3" chip is perfectly fine, and 3k is more than enough for a 1080p world; or where four-walled projection is digitally done to a 20' screen with an audience of thirty.

Having said that, knowing Red, if they can make Scarlet 4k, and release it without a hitch, they probably will.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

I understand that. But after the talk three years ago of 3k at $3k (granted, a very different design) and at NAB Ted talking about a working Scarlet for "about $6k", to now face a price approaching $10k - a 40% increase, even if Scarlet is 4k, would put a lot of people off I think.

I don't think RED is worried about putting people off, as much as they are worried about putting out the best cameras at the best prices points. I think they know already that the specs changes and price increases bummed out a lot of people, but they also need to stay true to the aforementioned principles (best camera, best price point).

They have already announced a price increase on EPIC after all stages are delivered, so somehow I doubt that they are going to deliver a camera for any less than $10K.

I think there was a point when they thought producing a camera for everybody was a good idea ($3K for 3K), but it's obvious that they re-thought that commitment - hence Jim's posting about "we build cameras for professionals and people who aspire to be professionals." I think they have abandoned the idea of the consumer camera, at least for now.

Price point doesn't dictate professionalism, per se, but it does dictate a certain set of features, and those features cost money to implement.

If they can deliver 4K at 96 fps - even a 2/3'' chip, with RAW Redcode, HDRx, at $10K - $12K - people will snap these up, especially with a set of inexpensive mini-primes. It's a good fit, price point wise, with their other offerings. I mean, really - a camera good enough to deliver a 4K theatrical distribution for $10K? - it would be a miracle. I do think Jim has re-considered compromising on 4K delivery -

The people who are put off will have other good choices, too, thanks to the pioneering efforts of RED.

4K is here to stay.

I would add that, the way Jim has been taunting Canon, I wouldn't be surprised if SCARLET is a 4K, S35mm offering...on the other hand, it does seem as if such a beast could cannibalize their own top end.

One thing is for certain, the dude knows how to keep us guessing....

 

[Scott Miller]

I personally think Jims 4K statement was a very obvious hint

But this is all speculation till Nov 3.....

 

[John Caballero]

he only hints have been Jim saying 4k is the film standard, and nothing less.

There you go. The very owner of the RED company, nonetheless. The company says Scarlet is for professionals or professionals in the making. And the professional standard for digital filmmaking based on his words, has to be 4K.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Agreed. Add that to Jim's comment, "the camera you want is coming before the end of the year", a direct reply to a plea for the Epic-S... then consider the R&D of the 2/3" sensor + 8x lens, and the continued viability of broadcast 2/3...

--and it looks like there will be 2, if not 3, scarlets available. A 2/3 and a 4K S35.

The MX sensor has been around for 2 years now. I'd bet anything Jim & Co made the assembly line cheap enough to continue selling the 4K sensor for less. Lower frame- and data rates, no 5K, but an entry into S35 RAW filmmaking.

Regardless of 2/3 viability, Red knows that 5 out of 5 film school brats expect interchangeable S35--because the 7D delivered a toys for tots version at $1500.

(I count myself amongst these selfish brats, and let me tell you, we will all be logged in November 3rd.)

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Quik Math:
6 to 10 is an 80% increase

The Nobel committee called - they said if they ever give a prize for Math, it won't be to you. :rofl:

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

The Nobel committee called - they said if they ever give a prize for Math, it won't be to you. :rofl:

Cut him some slack, he said 'Quik Math'.

Quik math is a Non-Euclidean branch of math named after Alfred Quik. The foundation of Quick Math is that A + B = A + B + (2A + 2B)/10. So '4' in Quikean mathematics actually is equal to 4.8 in standard mathematics. 4.8/6 = 80%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Quik

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

I'm in here to acquire knowledge not be beaten down and told to leave, but thats the web for you, but thats forums for you, nasty is just expected

Unfortunately, human psychology is like that. We are polite with a complete stranger when we meet him or her in person. However, when posting online the dark side of people come out resulting in nasty comments. I have seen people starting wars when they get derogatory comments. It is good that instead of responding in a nasty manner, you have chosen to be assertive and have shown positiveness in your words by saying that you are here to acquire knowledge. In India there is a wise saying in Sanskrit "Namranti phalino brukshyaha" which translates to a tree laden with fruits bent down. The analogy is for wise men who have accumulated lot of learnings and remain humble.

hands down RED creates some of the best images but the only way you can put a RED camera in everyones hand is if it's cheap. Look at the 7D...60D..T3i yeah the images suck but people will buy them without complaining even though we all know the truth (except producers haha).

if we can get a brain that starts at $3500 then RED can do what Canon does and then some.

I'm really confused I get that RED wants to satisfy customers but they've already won the battle, they have the baller'est camera around but only for the few who need it. Hopefully Nov. 3 changes all that.

If RED (as a rebel against the established giants) can launch a s35 4K interchangeable sensor camera at a lower price point then Nov. 3rd announcement will be truly historic. However, they would know their current and future manufacturing capabilities and whether they would be able to serve the demand so created by introducing a camera at such a price point. Despite loyalties, it becomes tough to manage thousands of people waiting for a long time. So I don't think RED will launch Scarlet at 4K with high fps and low price.

While the Ali analogy works for his fighting days, it will be a long, long time before RED is in a comparable state to Ali in his later years.

RED has miles to go before it attains the scale of these behemoths. It has a good bunch of talented people with right leadership and so is on the right track. It takes time. So just don't expect that overnight everything will happen.

And Norton, and Foreman, and Shavers, and Lyle, and Holmes, and...

Back to Scarlet. I sure hope after all this time we don't see the base price come in around $10k. That would be 67% more than the original talk, and while the new Scarlet is likely to be quite different than that proposed camera, it would also be about 40% more than the general price Ted was talking about at NAB, for a camera very similar to what we're likely to see. That would be quite the hike, and likely price quite a few of us out of the picture.

:001_unsure:

The best thing to happen to filming world is Canon including video in the 5D Mark II. That helped so many people to dream of telling a story. Many of those folks have/or are graduating/aspiring for a better camera. If RED or Canon or whoever can provide it at a good price point, lot of people will go for that. Modularity of RED is fine and is value for money in the long term. However, if someone has only a limited amount of money, then it will become difficult if the Scarlet will come at a higher price point. Please don't laugh. It is a fact. C. K. Prahalad in his seminal article "Value at the Bottom of the Pyramid" had said that it is the poor who pay more for the products (per unit they pay more) as they buy in small quantities.

I don't think RED is worried about putting people off, as much as they are worried about putting out the best cameras at the best prices points. I think they know already that the specs changes and price increases bummed out a lot of people, but they also need to stay true to the aforementioned principles (best camera, best price point).

They have already announced a price increase on EPIC after all stages are delivered, so somehow I doubt that they are going to deliver a camera for any less than $10K.

I think there was a point when they thought producing a camera for everybody was a good idea ($3K for 3K), but it's obvious that they re-thought that commitment - hence Jim's posting about "we build cameras for professionals and people who aspire to be professionals." I think they have abandoned the idea of the consumer camera, at least for now.

Price point doesn't dictate professionalism, per se, but it does dictate a certain set of features, and those features cost money to implement.

If they can deliver 4K at 96 fps - even a 2/3'' chip, with RAW Redcode, HDRx, at $10K - $12K - people will snap these up, especially with a set of inexpensive mini-primes. It's a good fit, price point wise, with their other offerings. I mean, really - a camera good enough to deliver a 4K theatrical distribution for $10K? - it would be a miracle. I do think Jim has re-considered compromising on 4K delivery -

The people who are put off will have other good choices, too, thanks to the pioneering efforts of RED.

4K is here to stay.

I would add that, the way Jim has been taunting Canon, I wouldn't be surprised if SCARLET is a 4K, S35mm offering...on the other hand, it does seem as if such a beast could cannibalize their own top end.

One thing is for certain, the dude knows how to keep us guessing....

It is standard practice or business sense for manufacturers to differentiate their products. They too have to sell enough and cover their R&D costs, Capex, Opex, profit etc. The pricing and specs will be based on their strategy. It is interesting watching the moves of RED leadership and learning leadership lessons for free. I am sure Nov. 3rd will be a great day for consumers.

Cheers,
Sabyasachi

 

[Michael Millichamp]

The XL-1 was my first big boy camera. I loved that thing!

GL2 was mine.

It was definitely fun.

 

[Zeb B]

Holy No Date on a Saturday Night Batman!

I make a math error a couple hours ago and you guys have been circle jerking about it ever since. Well played!

How about this:
If 2x < 100 and x is an integer, how many of the 2x + 2 integers will be divisible by 3 and by 2?
(a) 1
(b) 2
(c) 3
(d) 4
(e) 5
(f) who gives a fuck?


Back tomorrow to check on my little virgin friends

 

[Kevin Marshall]

Holy No Date on a Saturday Night Batman!

I make a math error a couple hours ago and you guys have been circle jerking about it ever since. Well played!

How about this:
If 2x < 100 and x is an integer, how many of the 2x + 2 integers will be divisible by 3 and by 2?
(a) 1
(b) 2
(c) 3
(d) 4
(e) 5
(f) who gives a fuck?


Back tomorrow to check on my little virgin friends

Well, as much as I hate straying off-topic, there are infinite integers x that satisfy 2x<100...ranging from -∞ to 50. So an infinite subset of that range will yield a 2x+2 result that is divisible by 3 and 2. Every result is divisible by 2.

So probably (f) who gives a fuck? - me, I guess.



But anyway...back to Scarlet...I'd wouldn't expect anything radically different than the last known specs/last seen camera. I just can't imagine drawing-board level changes happening so late in the game, and still delivering on time. Not to mention the R&D that must have gone into the existing camera/lens.

I'd imagine we'll get some awesome news and some surprises, but my cautious nature leads me to believe that we won't see any huge fundamental changes to the Scarlet from what we've known so far.

But you never know, though. I guess I'll just wait and see

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

How about deliver what we already know as Scarlet, at a surprisingly good price?

Ted's Scarlet wouldn't infringe on Epic's territory, and if RED has found a way to keep the prize down, or see it as a long term wise move, that would certainly be valid ground for Jim's excitement. It also goes well with "never be out of back order".

For professional web video/corporate production I can see that Scarlet go well with my 5D mkII. The Canon could do certain head shots and close ups where aliasing isn't an issue, and Scarlet does the heavy lifting.

 

[geoffboyle]

Go away for a couple of days and come back to pages of wild, and uninformed, speculation.

Canon is not a single company, which part is launching a product on the 3rd? is it the Stills division or the Video division?

Canon are very aware of the level of criticism aimed at the high compression of the EOS cameras, will they make the same mistake again? I kinda doubt it.

The F305 at 50Mb for HDTV is a really good system, do you really think that they'll up the res to 4K and not up the data rate?

Nobody has mentioned the Sony F3, it seems to me that this is the main competitor for the new Canon.

Are they aiming at Epic? I really doubt it, this time.

Am I looking forward to Scarlet?

I've been drooling at the thought of a 2/3rd interchangeable lens camera from RED for a very long time, I'll even settle for a fixed lens one if they can track the lenses together for 3D.

Is RED announcing a single product or more? no clue from present announcements.

I wish that I had been able to get early samples of both cameras to test, I have a Canon lined up for later this year after the Berlin launch at the end of November.

My last tests showed the Epic way in front in terms of DR, I didn't bother to test resolution!!

I'll be showing Epic, Alexa and maybe F65 test material at Digitale Cinematographie in Munich next week, come and see and talk about the tests.

 

[Häakon]

Go away for a couple of days and come back to pages of wild, and uninformed, speculation.

Welcome back Geoff. Did you expect something different?

I don't think RED is worried about putting people off, as much as they are worried about putting out the best cameras at the best prices points.

Can they put out a 4K camera at the "right" price point to make it worthwhile not to compete with Epic? In other words, if the price gets too high, you might as well buy an Epic. If the price is low, does it make financial sense for them to include a 4K sensor? How big is the margin between the two?

Is there a point in cramming 4K worth of pixels on a 2/3" chip?

Has the target market for Scarlet changed significantly?

I'm not making guesses to any of the above, just thinking out loud.

 

[Pawel Achtel]

Is there a point in cramming 4K worth of pixels on a 2/3" chip?

2/3" sensor is 8.8mm wide, divided by 4096 gives pixel size 2.1 microns.

Unless you shoot with f/2.0 or wider, the image will be diffracton limited.

 

[David Rasberry]

2/3" sensor is 8.8mm wide, divided by 4096 gives pixel size 2.1 microns.

Unless you shoot with f/2.0 or wider, the image will be diffracton limited.

2/3" HD format standard is 9.6mm x5.4mm Red's 2/3" sensor is 10.1mm x 5.35. The 8.8 x 6.6 is the old NTSC SD standard.

4k on a 2/3" sensor doesn't make much optical sense. There aren't many lenses sharp enough for 3k resolution. Sacrificing sensitivity and DR for 4k on such a small sensor doesn't make sense either.
If Red does make a 4k Scarlet it will most likely be a larger sensor.

 

[Bjørn Vermo]

2/3" HD format standard is 9.6mm x5.4mm Red's 2/3" sensor is 10.1mm x 5.35. The 8.8 x 6.6 is the old NTSC SD standard.

4k on a 2/3" sensor doesn't make much optical sense. There aren't many lenses sharp enough for 3k resolution. Sacrificing sensitivity and DR for 4k on such a small sensor doesn't make sense either.
If Red does make a 4k Scarlet it will most likely be a larger sensor.

This is true - and from before we know that they were not able to fit the electronics for a 4k camera inside a Scarlet body. That is why the s35 Scarlet was dropped and made into the Epic S.
Get real, folks - the s35 line of RED cameras is called Epic, the 2/3" line is called Scarlet. And they have already designed lenses to cover 2/3", so it would be rather stupid not to make a camera to use them with.