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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Not Just a Pro-Res Module ....

Brian Merlen said:
yeah lets face facts here, do you really want a baked in image? every POS camera i own already does this. i want red specifically for the raw/ other high end features.... the way i see it is maybe the workflow with a baked in pro res would be harder given the real world lighting constraints indys face with low/no budgets. your probably going to need color correction reguardless and having more to pull and tweak is going to be better than having less... that and CS5 helps a bit too, with many codecs it works better not even just red files, even my stupid handycam has a faster workflow with cs5 than fcp...!!! i bet fcp will soon have better native red support thus negating the pro res need... but reguardless i still personally would rather not have a baked in look...
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Well, it's not something that interests you but as you can tell from all the requests for it, in some markets it very much is an option that people want!
 
Brian Merlen said:
yeah lets face facts here, do you really want a baked in image? every POS camera i own already does this. i want red specifically for the raw/ other high end features.... the way i see it is maybe the workflow with a baked in pro res would be harder given the real world lighting constraints indys face with low/no budgets. your probably going to need color correction reguardless and having more to pull and tweak is going to be better than having less... that and CS5 helps a bit too, with many codecs it works better not even just red files, even my stupid handycam has a faster workflow with cs5 than fcp...!!! i bet fcp will soon have better native red support thus negating the pro res need... but reguardless i still personally would rather not have a baked in look...
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There are many reasons one would want these other codecs as options in addition to RAW. It’s not all about final output. From working with proxy files either for a cost benefit in post or on set laptop editing, to watching dailies. The ability to start working with lower-res proxy files immediately for offline, while offloading your RAW files to storage for your online has a lot of appeal. I would certainly welcome it!
 
Brian Merlen said:
yeah lets face facts here, do you really want a baked in image? every POS camera i own already does this. i want red specifically for the raw/ other high end features.... the way i see it is maybe the workflow with a baked in pro res would be harder given the real world lighting constraints indys face with low/no budgets. your probably going to need color correction reguardless and having more to pull and tweak is going to be better than having less... that and CS5 helps a bit too, with many codecs it works better not even just red files, even my stupid handycam has a faster workflow with cs5 than fcp...!!! i bet fcp will soon have better native red support thus negating the pro res need... but reguardless i still personally would rather not have a baked in look...
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First of all, one of the few other NO-POS cameras in the market, Arri Alexa, makes a lot of points among DPs, colorists and producers, just because of the easiness, workflow and the "gradability" of the LogC ProRes 4444. And calling it "baked in" implies that you cannot change/grade/color correct it. Which is not the case at all. A scanned film negative is also "baked in" in some form.

Funny thing is, as you imply, the raw workflow is less needed at the high end. If the sensor characteristics and the talent (and money) to light and shoot is there to begin with, a 12 bit log "non-raw and compressed" file is a very decent acquisition format.

A ProRes 4444 12 bit log file with the right exposure and color temp "baked in" can easily produce the most beautiful image you have ever seen. In HD/2K that is. Which is the reality for all the broadcast and commercial work we do. And they don´t need or want to "future proof" their masters beyond next year or so. (And why should they bother, broadcast in Scandinavia is PAL (576i) or 720P HD.)

The beauty of Redcode is the ability to be all good things at the same time. High resolution, DR, bit depth and frame rates, comparable in size to a ProRes file. So yes, it is better. But it is not a matter of good or bad.

I very much hope that RED will either work with 3rd parties or develop themselves something like the Cinedeck Extreme. If the EPIC is able to do a "Half Good" debayer in camera, and output that with RC2/RLF (or with the even better color science and NR which is inevitably coming) to a CineDeck-type module, it will be easier to sell RED productions to some of our clients.

And when they choose to grade and finish in our Scratch suite, I will of course color grade on the r3d files rather than the ProRes files. But choices are good.

BTW, now that RED has a patent for compressed raw in camera, it will be interesting to see all the marketing talk from competitors trying to dismiss raw as a good format. "Baked in" is the future for the competition, unless they patent REDCODE.
 
As NLEs continue adding and updating their built-in support for .r3d files...

I'm interested to learn more about the 1080p RGB files that Epic/Scarlet will offer. That very well might be a very good solution to these questions.
 
Adding wireless networking to the mix is just genius. Place a few network access points around your studio and you can download and start editing the proxies as soon as the stop button is pressed.
 
Fredrik Harreschou said:
Mahomet cald the Hill to come to him. And when the Hill stood still, he was neuer a whit abashed, but said; If the Hill will not come to Mahomet, Mahomet wil go to the hill.
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And this all turns on point of view... who is "Mahomet" and who is "the Hill" in this story. Perhaps it is not obvious.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
And this all turns on point of view... who is "Mahomet" and who is "the Hill" in this story. Perhaps it is not obvious.
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Terry you are a funny guy! :) (Just don't go Joe Pesci on me in Goodfellas.)
 
Brigham Edgar said:
i wouldn't get too excited at the idea. Jim has mentioned that H264 and Prores are in the works, but you forget it's all about RAW R3d's for these guys. They have built their whole system and tech around this and not baked in video paths. I think it's a great idea, but just not likely.
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then a redlogfilm 4444 pro res module...

raw = sometimes is not needed, or wanted.. i can easily live without raw or the converting process..

some people need it and want it.. thats fine.. but a module that spits out a log 4444 pro res or other codec that works shoot-edit.. i would be absolutely stoked with, and shoot 90% of my work on.. the other 10 percent would be if and when i do a film out or just need that extra resolution
 
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Zakaree Sandberg said:
raw = i dont need or want.. I know how to light, i know what i want.. so i can easily live without raw or the converting process..
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Zach, I think someone could read your comment and think you're saying the "need" for raw means someone doesn't know how to light. I think that would be a very contentious statement with most DP's here, to say the least :confused5:
 
thats not what i meant..
I was talking about the need (depending on your final product)
If im doing a film out.. I will want to shoot raw, even though i could get good color rendition from log, I would want that extra bit.
nothing to do with the skills of a dp. poor wording on my part. the NEED portion is referring to the need when you dont have the available light.. such as run and gun doc work. I dont need raw when im in a lighting situation i can control.

Obviously REDCODE RAW is a giant leap from the "other guys"
Im just saying for a huge portion of my projects. a simple shoot-edit method is preferred, rather than going with the extra steps.

I know ill catch a lot of flack from saying it.. but its just my personal preference, and i believe others share the same thought..

its all about options, which red is more than generous with..

one test I would LOVE to see (done by a professional colorist of course)
would be to color grade a R3D file.. and then color grade a pro res 4444 redlog file.. and examine the differences in the image. I just want to see if i could see the difference, or limitations of grading 4444.. maybe my tune will change rapidly
 
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Terry VerHaar said:
And this all turns on point of view... who is "Mahomet" and who is "the Hill" in this story. Perhaps it is not obvious.
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Terry,

my POV is that RED, even though they have made a huge impact in a lot of areas, is Mahomet. The Hill is the millions of FCP and Avid editors, not wanting to learn new stuff AND/OR upgrade their hardware/software to do native R3D. And all the production companies and tv stations with inhouse post departments that produce broadcast reality, docs and the likes. (If you tell them that they "only" need to upgrade their dozens of Avids to version 5, they give you a funny look. I know, I have tried). Lots of money to spend, but addicted to well known and tested workflows and always trying to save money. But I think you knew what I meant. ;)

And my point is that we, as a rental house, have to offer solutions and workflows that the producers and camera crews understand. In broadcast there is a different set of needs and demands than in indie or high end feature film production. They´re not indifferent to better image quality, but not at the expense of a slower workflow or more expensive hardware/post workflows. A DIT or lab services is not an option in these environments. They want the footage ready-to-edit.

I have no doubt that the fixed 2/3" Scarlet will outperform all the 2/3" Sonys and Panasonics we have on our shelves in terms of image quality. Of course we can get KiPros or Cinedecks. But it will be a hack with its own set of problems/issues. I am only suggesting that a RED made or approved module would be very welcome for a lot of uses.

Cheers,
Fred
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
one test I would LOVE to see (done by a professional colorist of course)
would be to color grade a R3D file.. and then color grade a pro res 4444 redlog file.. and examine the differences in the image. I just want to see if i could see the difference, or limitations of grading 4444.. maybe my tune will change rapidly
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I´ll definitely do that test in our Scratch when I have the time. My guess is that for broadcast it will be pretty much indistinguishable. The compression on digital cable is so hard, the subtleties in quality never comes through.
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
all about options, which red is more than generous with..

one test I would LOVE to see (done by a professional colorist of course)
would be to color grade a R3D file.. and then color grade a pro res 4444 redlog file.. and examine the differences in the image. I just want to see if i could see the difference, or limitations of grading 4444.. maybe my tune will change rapidly
Click to expand...

Actually i think I know the answer to that, and I am with Fredrik all the way...

The prores log would look as good (if not better) if it ws developed well.

The r3d might very well look bad, if the metadata was badly set.

AND I hope that all you guys working in one-man-shops remember that some of us work in rather larger environments where not everyone knows or actually ever need to know the specifics of R3Ddevelopment....
 
AnthonyFlores said:
Zach, I think someone could read your comment and think you're saying the "need" for raw means someone doesn't know how to light. I think that would be a very contentious statement with most DP's here, to say the least :confused5:
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Take a look at this: http://mikemost.com/TV_Show_Origination_2009_PDF.pdf

No one "needs" a raw camera. But everyone wants good quality. My guess is that the shows that use the D21 rarely records through a Codex. I would bet that most of them are recording to HDCAM SR. For convenience and safety. I would love to hear Mike M comment on this.
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
thats not what i meant..
I was talking about the need (depending on your final product)
If im doing a film out.. I will want to shoot raw, even though i could get good color rendition from log, I would want that extra bit.
nothing to do with the skills of a dp. poor wording on my part. the NEED portion is referring to the need when you dont have the available light.. such as run and gun doc work. I dont need raw when im in a lighting situation i can control.

Obviously REDCODE RAW is a giant leap from the "other guys"
Im just saying for a huge portion of my projects. a simple shoot-edit method is preferred, rather than going with the extra steps.

I know ill catch a lot of flack from saying it.. but its just my personal preference, and i believe others share the same thought..

its all about options, which red is more than generous with..

one test I would LOVE to see (done by a professional colorist of course)
would be to color grade a R3D file.. and then color grade a pro res 4444 redlog file.. and examine the differences in the image. I just want to see if i could see the difference, or limitations of grading 4444.. maybe my tune will change rapidly
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying Zach, I agree with you about Red and options ...

Also, while I'm certainly not a DP (though learning fast) -- I'm beginning to direct small projects with the Red and I agree very much with you in terms of needs. Since most of my stuff is for the web, it's actually much better for me to get an immediately workable file like ProRes 4444 ... hell, I can't even always finish what I do in 1080p because it needs to stream VERY quickly or people will leave the page, and not everyone has a fast connection.

With that said, I love the flexibility and knowing that with my Epic X -- even if most of my stuff is for the web now -- if I ever wanted to direct/shoot a full-blown feature for the big screen ... I won't be limited in any way :)
 
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