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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Noise, sharpness and resolution...

Dylan Macleod said:
But I was in a high end suite on a Baselight viewing on a (roughly) 6'x10' screen?
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Im curious of the same... I am not saying I have a problem with RED... its all I have used on my directorial work over the past 3... nearly 4 years. I am sold on RAW and how redcode achieves that raw data. Dynamic range as well on the raw image of MX... but Resolution I dont know the 4k thing is an amazingly flexible format but... something like seeing the beasts of the southern wild on a huge screen made me rethink my need for delivering in crazy hi res. It was an amazingly pretty film shot on super 16.

All that being said I am still beyond sold on how RED achieves its RAW... and its honestly as far as I am aware the only raw format that we can naitively edit with a couple different software packages. The BMC thing though a novel attempt at a camera is still kinda step backwards in the post world... has to be transcoded... has to have a first light done on it etc...

Anyways thats a long way of me chiming in with Dylan as I have had the same experience... and I am a very anti arri guy. mainly for form factor and lack of in camera raw.
 
This is a philosophy that I fully embrace. I have 1080p screen grabs that will forever be frozen in their time.

The good stuff is already here, just needs refining. Epic is here. 5k WS is good enough. Frame rates are great, RCX is coming along wonderfully, and Premiere Pro has much promise. I have everything I need now, it will only get better.

Jim, you are a warrior.




Jannard said:
We'll keep sayin' it until it sticks.

Jim
Click to expand...
 
Ryan Hamblin said:
Im curious of the same... I am not saying I have a problem with RED... its all I have used on my directorial work over the past 3... nearly 4 years. I am sold on RAW and how redcode achieves that raw data. Dynamic range as well on the raw image of MX... but Resolution I dont know the 4k thing is an amazingly flexible format but... something like seeing the beasts of the southern wild on a huge screen made me rethink my need for delivering in crazy hi res. It was an amazingly pretty film shot on super 16.

All that being said I am still beyond sold on how RED achieves its RAW... and its honestly as far as I am aware the only raw format that we can naitively edit with a couple different software packages. The BMC thing though a novel attempt at a camera is still kinda step backwards in the post world... has to be transcoded... has to have a first light done on it etc...

Anyways thats a long way of me chiming in with Dylan as I have had the same experience... and I am a very anti arri guy. mainly for form factor and lack of in camera raw.
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U sure they didnt blow up to 35mm?
 
Dylan Macleod said:
That would be considered "uprezzing", no? I.E. 1080 > 4K.
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I would say from my experience it acts differently, unless you are blowing up the scan not the color neg. Done it before and from there you could do an incredible 4K version.
 
Earlier this evening after I made this post here on the topic of future proofing I was having a conversation about Dragon over dinner with friend and I said something that stuck after explaining what we currently know about Dragon:

"6K is the right way"

Let's get there.
 
Dylan,

I am so intrigued by your experiment. Interesting to say the least. I shot a commercial on Alexa last week and was often saddened by the thought that I could not say with certainty to the director or agency that shots could be blown up. On "arrested Development" we are loving the fact that we can blow up our Epic footage quite easily with little residual issues.

If only we all had free time to test properly.....
 
Now this I can agree to. Then again admittedly Alexa, F65, C300, 1D-Cinema etc all do downsample as well. But you can't reframe or do any of the other fun 4K stuff on most of them.
 
Peter Lyons Collister said:
Dylan,

I am so intrigued by your experiment. Interesting to say the least. I shot a commercial on Alexa last week and was often saddened by the thought that I could not say with certainty to the director or agency that shots could be blown up. On "arrested Development" we are loving the fact that we can blow up our Epic footage quite easily with little residual issues.

If only we all had free time to test properly.....
Click to expand...

I had another Alexa shoot today and was able to tell them - with confidence - that they could easily blow up 100% (even though I knew 200% was possible). It really would be worth a proper test sometime. Personally - I hate the idea of reframing and blowing up later - but as a test in how resolution holds up (4K vs. 1080) these recent experiences I have had really make me wonder that math has little to do with it.
 
...and to be fair - I shot some plate material recently for an art project that required some major blowing up. We chose Epic - for the simple reason that we could capture 5K. I haven't seen the results yet - but I have heard that the Epic footage (blown up at least 200% in some cases) looks fantastic.
 
did the colorist twist the sharpen knob while zooming in too...?

this will make all footage sharper, always to a certain limit based on source resolution.

meaning starting with 5k vs 1080p you always have a head start no matter how far you zoom in and post sharpen. (A well done Post sharpening in most Situations being in my Opinion an important Step in RED RAW Footage Handling to look its very best, also based on the fact that the OLPF will before hitting the Sensor do slight but necessary softening of the Image )
 
alexjentz said:
did the colorist twist the sharpen knob while zooming in too...?

this will make all footage sharper, always to a certain limit based on source resolution.

meaning starting with 5k vs 1080p you always have a head start no matter how far you zoom in and post sharpen. (A well done Post sharpening in most Situations being in my Opinion an important Step in RED RAW Footage Handling to look its very best, also based on the fact that the OLPF will before hitting the Sensor do slight but necessary softening of the Image )
Click to expand...

We zoomed in - said "wow" and then he sharpened it to show what was possible in the best case scenario. The art project I did also required that the Epic footage get a little sharpening after it was blown up 200%. When judged against the original (Epic 4K blown up to 2K - or Alexa 1080 blown up the equivalent) - both will appear "less sharp" than their original and will benefit from sharpening. But I think we are digressing...
 
You stole my the words out of my mount Alex. You can blow up and sharpen.. and get lucky sometimes.. but it doesn't look nearly as good as if you just started where you needed to be in the first place.. and lucky is the key word.. most often you discover that you get pushed in a corner..specially if you are pushing your stops.. high ISO or Low light.. forget about it. Just like when you would try and blow up 16mm to 35mm.. the noise ( or grain ) turns into golfballs.

I remember the time when the Varicam and Sony 900s came out and were duking it out for a bit... The Varicam was a better camera than the 900 in a few ways... but the 720p killed it.. I dont think I can count on one hand theatrical released films shot on the Varicam and it was because of the resolution ( even though the 900 was cheating with its squeeze )

1080p is the new 720p... nobody in their right mind would shoot something important in 720 right now. And I remember when almost all televisions were 720p for about a year or so and only a handful of 1080p displays where on the market... same as 1080p vs 4k televisions right now in the market. That movement was pretty quick.
 
Dylan Macleod said:
Would love some ammunition to fight back with?
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Depending on the resizing and sharpening algorithms used in your Baselight session you can actually get decent results with lower resolution cameras to a certain point. There are trade offs though, especially in micro detail and texture. Anything that I ever shot on a lower end camera for big screen use got a whole lot of tender love and rage in the scaling and sharpening department as well as some noise reduction and I would usually add grain as well.


At several studios I've done work for on features captured on film the general pipeline is to scan at 4k or 6k and scale down to 2k for VFX work then export back out to the laser recorder onto intermediate stock using an upscale and sharpening algorithm back up to 4K sometimes with a grain pattern to enhance perceived detail.


However, when we shot out the native 4K/6K material it held more detail when projected. Subtle, but noticeable.

And when I did some sharpening experiments on that higher resolution material we viewed some really stunning results on scenes with lots of detail.

This was over a decade ago and the concern was film. We also did tests and comparisons years later when the Genesis and Red One came along to match their frames with captured film.

If the primary concern is tack sharp imagery you will always get better results with a higher capture resolution.

The experiments that revealed so much to me about scaling and sharpening involved subjects with lots of micro detail like bark, hair, skin, and a brick wall.


The advantage of raw high resolution capture is that you have the choice to add a bit of style and edge to your image in the form of sharpening if you want it. RedCode Raw also scales very well for digital zooms and crops due to it's wavelet based codec.
 
I shoot now everything @4k with my new Scarlet, and I don't care if it's an important project, or not so important. The results are awesome, and the joy is huge as well. and the Down-rezzing is the most beautiful part of it as well when 4k is not required. Not to mention RAW, omg I was a 1080p canon guy until I could afford my Scarlet. 1080p is great, but shooting RAW @4k it's heaven and makes 1080p look Not as great...

Jim keep preaching until everybody gets it for the love of god! and please tell us soon what' s gonna be the pain for the Scarlet-Dragon Upgrade...I am going for dragon, then I guess it will be gozzilla, and then mammoth sensor...hehehehehe

Alain M
 
Jarred Land said:
You stole my the words out of my mount Alex. You can blow up and sharpen.. and get lucky sometimes.. but it doesn't look nearly as good as if you just started where you needed to be in the first place.. and lucky is the key word.. most often you discover that you get pushed in a corner..specially if you are pushing your stops.. high ISO or Low light.. forget about it. Just like when you would try and blow up 16mm to 35mm.. the noise ( or grain ) turns into golfballs.
Click to expand...


…just love the Fact that you eventually now worked with RED for so long that you also Transfomered into an EPIC for yourself, with a PL Mount (or is it a Canon ?) to spread the word ;)

And of course your Point of the Importance of the base Exposure of the Source Material that wants to be scaled is the Key Factor Number 2 next to Capture Resolution and Codec/Bitrate.

Add Factor Number 3 - The Subject / Scene you are Shooting including Performance of Lens.

Mix all that in how "smart" / "flexible" / "good" your Grading / Finishing Systems Scaling possibilities are, just like Phil was elaborating, then you got your Formula of how well your Material will Scale.


As one can See always difficult to foresee and even a lot of Experience can make it hard for you.

So you are best of Starting Maxing out the Hardware Factors you can control before Shooting, Choosing Best Sensor, Codec and Lens for the job.

Owning RED MXs since the Beginning, Epic M Since over a year, working with RED RAW Every Day since years, Being DoP, DIT and Colorist, going through the Camera Lens up until DCP Cinema Screen Workflows /Tools/ Processes time and time again with so Powerful Image Processing Tools like DaVinci Handling 5K RAW natively nowadays, there was a long learning Process, during which Optimism, Openness, Experimenting, Testing and never giving up in Striving for the best image were necessary to slowly get the Mindset for what i think is needed today to make best use of the tools that are available nowadays.

But it seems a lot of People in the Industry have not been willing yet to invest in that Learning Process to get up to Date, and live with their Realities some years behind.
 
Jannard said:
Lots of captured resolution pays dividends.

Down-rezzing lowers noise. Up-rezzing magnifies it.

Down-rezzing also increases apparent sharpness. The converse is also true...

Shoot the best image you can capture in camera. That means the most resolution, most dynamic range possible. And make sure it is RAW. Color science is always getting better. Don't lock down in RGB too soon in the chain. Tools are coming that will give you all the transcode capabilities you would ever dream of.

It doesn't matter what format you are delivering to today... it is the captured image that matters. The math speaks the truth.

Jim
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Absolutely correct... This is how I shoot... Always nice to get newer better tools... ;)
 
alexjentz said:
But it seems a lot of People in the Industry have not been willing yet to invest in that Learning Process to get up to Date, and live with their Realities some years behind.
Click to expand...

It's ok. We are not the only camera manufacturers screaming 4k anymore. Soon enough, as the 4k displays spread throughout households, consumers will be screaming it as well... and the people that refuse to listen will hopefully have a change of heart.. there really wont be much of an option not to.
 
Jannard said:
...

Recording RAW and simultaneous DNX-HD, ProRes or H264 for editorial makes sense. ...
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Jim,

I think you know that recording H.264 for editorial makes no sense at all. ProRes does if you want to limit yourself to the Mac platform and all that comes (or doesn't come) along with it. DNxHD makes *PERFECT* sense for editorial b/c it is the defacto standard. And it has the added bonuses of fully working on both Mac and PC and with every significant NLE out there.

So are we going to see a DNxHD proxy module? :) :) :)
 
Peter Moretti said:
Jim,

I think you know that recording H.264 for editorial makes no sense at all. ProRes does if you want to limit yourself to the Mac platform and all that comes (or doesn't come) along with it. DNxHD makes *PERFECT* sense for editorial b/c it is the defacto standard. And it has the added bonuses of fully working on both Mac and PC and with every significant NLE out there.

So are we going to see a DNxHD proxy module? :) :) :)
Click to expand...

The Meizler module is already available on pre-order and will make proxies in one of three formats of you choice, H.264, DNxHD and a third as of yet undisclosed format.
A stand alone, or at least simpler, proxy module has been announced, without specs, by Jarred, for the beginning of the year : http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...-The-Details&p=1062838&viewfull=1#post1062838
Cheers,
Damien
 
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