Noise, sharpness and resolution...

[Jarred Land]

Jim,

I think you know that recording H.264 for editorial makes no sense at all. ProRes does if you want to limit yourself to the Mac platform and all that comes (or doesn't come) along with it. DNxHD makes *PERFECT* sense for editorial b/c it is the defacto standard. And it has the added bonuses of fully working on both Mac and PC and with every significant NLE out there.

So are we going to see a DNxHD proxy module?

Hey.. you guys all screamed for it heh heh heh.

Anyways.. you get the best of both worlds.. an instant proxy file for edit. ( although with the next round of NLE's that will be less important ) and a 5K REDCODE RAW master. Doesn't get much better than that.

 

[Max M.]

Great, great, great! please also give us the choice in prores and dnxhd and h264 flavors. The possibility to record prores 4444 in redlogfilm, or for example prores proxy, so can also choose to use it as end products for quick turnaround gigs that don't require extensive grading or as you say purely for editing purpose.
h264 has a place too for dailes on producers and directors laptops. Would be nice if h264 could be encoded at the same time as prores or dnxhd as a option

 

[Peter Moretti]

Well I guess if you have the cash for an offline/online workflow, you have $13K for a proxy module. :emote_hippie:

 

[Ketch Rossi]

... and a 5K REDCODE RAW master...

I'm sure you mean 6k... He he

 

[Pawel Achtel]

funny you mentioned this, Jim...exactly at the time when I'm tinkering in my studio with some magic pixies, smoke and mirrors....and measuring MTF of an 8k (yes, eight key) image originated in somewhat unconventional way with the Epic 5k sensor and measuring right up to Nyquist limit of ....a virtual 8k sensor....probably worth a patent application....it's tantalising and exciting....
You guys have no idea how difficult it is to nail down the focus for an 8k finish even at f/8...but good fun playing with physics and maths...:conehead:

ok, back to the man's cave....

 

[Paul Ellington]

Hey.. you guys all screamed for it heh heh heh.

Anyways.. you get the best of both worlds.. an instant proxy file for edit. ( although with the next round of NLE's that will be less important ) and a 5K REDCODE RAW master. Doesn't get much better than that.

This is perfect Jarred and with the Meizler being able to do what it can, makes total sense... Just need more videos to wrap my head around how they re-conform, though OFFHOLLY NYC has been great at explaining this when I was coloring there.

Best.

- PE

 

[Peter Moretti]

Great, great, great! please also give us the choice in prores and dnxhd and h264 flavors. The possibility to record prores 4444 in redlogfilm, or for example prores proxy, so can also choose to use it as end products for quick turnaround gigs that don't require extensive grading or as you say purely for editing purpose.
h264 has a place too for dailes on producers and directors laptops. Would be nice if h264 could be encoded at the same time as prores or dnxhd as a option

Max,

Do realize that you don't need any NLE on your computer to watch DNxHD files. The codecs are a free download and easy install from Avid's website. Once that's done, DNxHD files can be watched for any reason. Just say'n .

 

[Paul Ellington]

Max,

Do realize that you don't need any NLE on your computer to watch DNxHD files. The codecs are a free download and easy install from Avid's website. Once that's done, DNxHD files can be watched for any reason. Just say'n .

Think bigger... CLOUD ... Right now there are CLOUD centers for data being built in Ireland for instance. So think about it, share your edit, anywhere in the world at any time, possibly "real-time" at some point. The ADOBE CLOUD membership is the second best thing I got for learning.

- PE

 

[Max M.]

Max,

Do realize that you don't need any NLE on your computer to watch DNxHD files. The codecs are a free download and easy install from Avid's website. Once that's done, DNxHD files can be watched for any reason. Just say'n .

I know, but disk space is a big thing. Being able to give really small filesize files means at the end of day without a hour wait you can copy it on a small usb disk to them and after alot of days of shooting it will still fit

 

[Matthew Scott]

Check out my findings a couple years back....1080p > 4K (make sure you look at about 4 posts down where I have links to the 4k stills)

http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18353

** BAH!! Photobucket have killed my 4k examles!!! Where are they???

Anyway, this is a very interesting topic, and now that I actually have my own 4K camera, I can do some more tests. A quick one I did tonight shows that upscaled 1080p from my Samruai looks almost identical to unsharpened RAW 4K. I'm not agreeing that 1080p is fine....or okay....I'm just curious.

 

[Peter Moretti]

Paul,

But you aren't suggesting that H.264 would be used for cloud [change from "could", LOL!] based editing?


Max,

I understand what you're saying about file size. But I think it makes sense to *consider* using DNxHD 36 for both editorial and "dailies." The data rate is 36 only mbps, which is pretty low, and it's lighter on the processor than H.264. You also have the benefit of people looking at the same exact file.

But of course, if you're proxy recording at more of an online data rate, then it makes sense to provide lighter weight files for others to view... and in that case the arguement for H.264 becomes more persuasive.

JMHO$.02.

 

[Paul Ellington]

Paul,

But you aren't suggesting that H.264 would be used for could based editing?

I am saying, depending on what happens I could see that for sure. Prices on storage and WIFI need to come down for it to be for everybody, but, and I'm not on the inside, I could see a situation where you could edit in whatever format you want in the CLOUD. But, smaller proxys are certainly easier, load up the R3D on a main server and then you could have your cut that way too.

Graeme, Jarred, Jim, Brent know where this is heading best to ask them really. I just know the CLOUD might be bigger than we think.

- PE.

 

[Mondo Ghulam]

Something that can get lost in the resolution discussion is just how much of a boon increased resolution has been to those of us doing any camera tracking/photogrammetry.

In the case of tracking: using a lowly test subject - my wooden coffee table - the difference in resolution from Canon 1080p to Scarlet 4k has been ditching small tracking markers and being able to use the wood-grain itself as solid, stable tracking detail. That's amazing in it's own right. Add the fact that you can get close to final tracking solves using automatic settings and you see how much of big deal increased resolution can be. (Syntheyes can read r3d's natively now too, so it just gets better)

If they aren't doing it already, I'm pretty sure some of these stereo 3D rigs will, with the advent of 6k capture, be able to perform 4D motion capture of whatever they happen to be seeing, with incredible detail.

More resolution? Yes please!

 

[Peter Moretti]

Paul,

But you aren't suggesting that H.264 would be used for could based editing?

I am saying, depending on what happens I could see that for sure. Prices on storage and WIFI need to come down for it to be for everybody, but, and I'm not on the inside, I could see a situation where you could edit in whatever format you want in the CLOUD. But, smaller proxys are certainly easier, load up the R3D on a main server and then you could have your cut that way too.

Graeme, Jarred, Jim, Brent know where this is heading best to ask them really. I just know the CLOUD might be bigger than we think.

- PE.

Paul,

FWIU, Avid has been working very hard on this issue and Media Composer 6.5 gives the first hint of what they think is going to be the solution. They seem to believe it's using MXF wrapped JPEG 2000 files.

http://www.amwa.tv/projects/AS-02.shtml

The cloud has lots of potential and challenges... and *I* certainly don't understand either very well, LOL!

 

[Ryan Hamblin]

My editor/business partner will kill me for this... But I have noticed this as well. Again I do see benefits of 4k, but I think we're we all really understand this idea of cinematic imagery is dynamic range, 35mm depth of field, and color rendition. RED is nailing all of these things and we get the benefit of 4k or 5k thrown in as a bonus.... But we shoot 3k occasionally and we have to blow that stuff up quite a bit to get it to feel any different than our 4k stuff. At the end of the day. 35mm is not that sharp...it's sharper than 16mm, sharper than 1080... But when you get sucked into the story or the framing of a shot etc... Are you really worried about pixel peeping it. If so I think your missing the how point of image acquisition in the first place.

What red has done is amazing though. This is like post world war era where the arri IIc got to working. And still works. I think with scarlet and epic we are at a place we could shoot for the next 20 30 years on these cameras. Even if we had to uprez a few shots (3k). Yeah better sensors may come along etc... Etc... But that happened in the film world too but you still have 50 year old cameras still clacking along. I think red gave us our digital film equivalent. That's a pretty big achievement. We just gotta focus on story now

Check out my findings a couple years back....1080p > 4K (make sure you look at about 4 posts down where I have links to the 4k stills)

http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=18353

** BAH!! Photobucket have killed my 4k examles!!! Where are they???

Anyway, this is a very interesting topic, and now that I actually have my own 4K camera, I can do some more tests. A quick one I did tonight shows that upscaled 1080p from my Samruai looks almost identical to unsharpened RAW 4K. I'm not agreeing that 1080p is fine....or okay....I'm just curious.

 

[Stefano Ceccon]

The italian RAI television broadcast, is testing transmission 4K ans S3D hd on DTT.
The experimental section new technologies, has signed an agreement with the Region of Valle d'Aosta for the broadcast.
And I have the good fortune to provide the content video 4k an S3D hd.
I used a RED ONE MX and now an EPIC X. Lighter than to walk in the mountains
I shot 5k ws, and handed in 4k ws. - noise + details!
Look the dragon for low lights and noise free and + details

 

[Justin Kirchhoff]

The proxy module makes sense. H264 editing doesn't. I've said it a million times before and I'll say it again: CS6 is the bomb. It's funky in some aspects, but true native R3D editing is amazing.

 

[Steve Gibby]

A summary of Charles Darwin's concept of Natural Selection:

"Species must adapt to their environment and make necessary changes as time progresses. If species are too slow to adapt to needed changes, or don't adapt at all, then they inevitably program themselves for eventual extinction"

In the above, if we substitute the word "cameras" for the word "species", we've accurately assessed the the camera industry. With no adaption or progression, extinction is not a question of "maybe", but rather just a question of "when".

Red obviously understands the concept of Natural Selection - while some other camera makers seem not to. The near-term and long-term prognosis for the camera industry is thus for some inevitable extinction events.

Oh well...

 

[Bill Anderson]

We all know there is not a correlation between successful filmmaking and one camera or file size. Does anyone see a correlation? You'd think after a century and more of great filmmaking we would notice a correlation between camera specifications ("the Math") and successful art. I do see appropriate choices being made, of all shapes and sizes, and often coupled with fine craft. But there is no 5K key that unlocks a 5K gilded door to success, any more than there is a 1080 key that only opens the door to the crapper.

I think I'll make a movie on 1080, something appropriate of course. ( :

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

I love RAW r3d files. it's all we used for our edits....the problem with some other post houses we work with is they need a more affordable and better solution than having to use multiple redrockets for rendering. I hope GPU debayering/acceleration for R3D is in the work.