No More Red Drives

[Michael Hastings]

I made a few feature films on only 8 Gig cards. So did a lot of other folks.

16G cards are not too far off from the run time of a 1000ft mag on 35mm.

Funny how the bar raises. Everyone was SO EXCITED when 16G cards shipped.

It's nice to see such demand for RED media.

Comparing this to film mags is getting a little old. In the past ten years what is the percentage of film minutes you've shot vs. Video/digital?

Or to keep it less personal, what do you think the percentage is for the 6000+ Red1 owners over the past ten years?

30 minute Betacam or some follow on format with even longer record times has been the norm in motion media for 30 years, except for the minuscule amount shot on film.

Stepping backward doesn't seem to be something that should be lightly dismissed.

 

[noah newtown]

whats the problem?! its like "Ram/Drives not available in the moment"
in max 2-3month we have 64gb CFs

Jim can i trade in my REDcradle its useless

 

[Gunleik Groven]

whats the problem?! its like "Ram/Drives not available in the moment"
in max 2-3month we have 64gb CFs

Jim can i trade in my REDcradle its useless

Some of us have productions over the next 2-3 months where a RED RAID might be what the doctor ordered as of the formerly available options....

But one day, we'll all NOT use the cradle. We just want to get there before removing it...

 

[Paul Leeming]

I see an opportunity here:

RED, if you are discontinuing these drives then how about allowing us to install our own replacement SSDs inside the original enclosure and not locking out 4K recording as a result of them no longer having the Hitachi drives inside? I think with a list of recommended drives supplied by RED this could be done by a lot of people and for those not confident in doing it themselves, there would no doubt be people who could offer those services for a small fee.

It may not fix a blown FireWire800 port or a dead circuitboard, but I bet it would fix 80% of the problems stemming from spinning media failures.

I know it's possible to do it because I know of people that have successfully done just this transplant.

What say you RED? Might be a good way to engender some much needed goodwill at this point in time.

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Brent Carter]

Let me try to hit a bunch of comments / clarify some misconceptions at once:
* We are fulfilling the backorders for RED-DRIVE and RED-RAM as quickly as possible. We have not stopped shipping them, but we have stopped taking new orders.
* Media evolves and we evolve with it as we move to better media options for our customers. If we think we have found something better than RED-RAM/RED-DRIVE, we are going to pursue it. Are you guys pissed at Apple that your new MacBook Pro does not have a floppy disc drive slot?
* "I have no problem buying parts for a 27 year old Porsche 911, most parts even seat belts & rubber trim still available from the factory". Great, can you get a complete 1983 911 direct from the factory? I have never said that we will not support (ie, repair) delivered RED-RAM and RED-DRIVE with new seat belts and rubber trim.
* It sure would make everyone's lives easier if RED components were "off the shelf". But the fact of the matter is RED is pushing the envelope across the board with our product. We are talking very custom, very specialized components - from top to bottom. That means long lead times. That means a small number of qualified suppliers.
* That being said, as Jay mentioned, with some accessories we have been hit with suppliers not being able to meet commitments - or even gone belly-up. That is, unfortunately, part of the territory with today's economic climate. When when one (or two or three) of those companies that makes a specialized part drops the ball, we all suffer. And RED will not accept a substandard part so it does take time to qualify a new vendor to meet our specifications.
* The concern over accessory availability with new products is a valid one. Fortunately, I am in a position to see behind the RED curtain, and I can assure you that we have applied a ton of lessons we have learned with RED ONE and RED ONE accessories. One of those areas is certainly supply chain. We have been much more proactive on future accessories than we were able to be with RED ONE accessories. I think our Stage 2 EPIC-X customers will have a much better experience than when they went through their RED ONE deliveries.
* As to "Obsolescence" not longer being "Obsolete", the new media options were are working on will be compatible with RED ONE as well as new brains. I think everyone will be very stoked with what is coming down the pike.

That pretty much exhausts all I can say on the topic until we have additional information to post.

BC

 

[Dave S]

Are you guys pissed at Apple that your new MacBook Pro does not have a floppy disc drive slot?

No. But if they removed the DVD drive and replaced it with a floppy drive with a promise that a better format is coming at an unspecified future date, then I probably would be.

 

[Leo Ticheli]

Thank you, Brent, for your post, however it does not answer some fundamental questions.

How are you fulfilling back orders if the suppliers are no longer capable of producing or no longer in business? If the supplier problems affect only the new storage device, why are you not continuing to offer the current drives?

For how long can we expect our current drives to be supported with rebuilds or repairs? How long will Red guarantee sufficient parts be available?

Why did Red make the decision to EOL the drives before a replacement was available? Did Red consider the fallout from this decision? Did you EOL the drives and then discover that the replacement would be delayed?

Frankly, your ability to "see behind the curtain" is not so comforting to me and I'm far more "stroked" by real products available for delivery than a promise; a forthright, definitive announcement of the EOL drive's replacement and realistic delivery schedule would quell much unease.

Finally, a note to the fanboys; attacks and snide comments not helpful. Many of us have very legitimate concerns; I hope this does not brand us as, "having a bad attitude," and incur a punitive response from Red.

Best regards,

Leo

 

[Brent Carter]

No. But if they removed the DVD drive and replaced it with a floppy drive with a promise that a better format is coming at an unspecified future date, then I probably would be.

I see RED CF and RED-DRIVE as media options, one better for some conditions, one better for other. Not one "better" than the other.

I think comparing a RED-DRIVE to a DVD drive and RED CF to a floppy drive is an unfair analogy.

BC

 

[David Birdy]

If anyone is stuck and needs to rent send me an E-mail I may able to help.

We have Red Ram drives and Red 320 Raid drives.

Dave
engdb@live.com

 

[Brent Carter]

Thank you, Brent, for your post, however it does not answer some fundamental questions.

How are you fulfilling back orders if the suppliers are no longer capable of producing or no longer in business? If the supplier problems affect only the new storage device, why are you not continuing to offer the current drives?

For how long can we expect our current drives to be supported with rebuilds or repairs? How long will Red guarantee sufficient parts be available?

Why did Red make the decision to EOL the drives before a replacement was available? Did Red consider the fallout from this decision? Did you EOL the drives and then discover that the replacement would be delayed?

Frankly, your ability to "see behind the curtain" is not so comforting to me and I'm far more "stroked" by real products available for delivery than a promise; a forthright, definitive announcement of the EOL drive's replacement and realistic delivery schedule would quell much unease.

Finally, a note to the fanboys; attacks and snide comments not helpful. Many of us have very legitimate concerns; I hope this does not brand us as, "having a bad attitude," and incur a punitive response from Red.

Best regards,

Leo

Great questions, Leo....but, I think a little out of the realm of what a company tells their customers. Even this company. We are pretty damn open about things, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere on what information is for public consumption and what is not. I have told you what I can tell you. I daresay not too many companies draw the line as close to the customer as we do when we have people like me, Jim, Jarred, Deanan, Rob, Stuart, etc etc on forums answering questions and being as open as we feel we can be. If you guys want to see behind the curtain like me, you'll have to talk to our HR dept to get a job here

But let me clarify one thing: "If the supplier problems affect only the new storage device" - I did not say that.

BC

 

[Zander]

I see RED CF and RED-DRIVE as media options, one better for some conditions, one better for other. Not one "better" than the other.

I think comparing a RED-DRIVE to a DVD drive and RED CF to a floppy drive is an unfair analogy.

BC

The issue isn't really if one is better than the other, I love the form-factor of the red with just the CF cards. The issue is people build their productions around using the drives. Doco, long form, tvc, all these thing with multiple take-after take-after take have come to rely on long takes. Not to mention other crazier forms of shooting (under the sea).

Having the HW/FW lockout of replacement drives, not using SSD's etc just hurts this more. 640 gigs of shooting space is gigantic. that's 10x more hdd space than whats on my 5 year old mac laptop. On the other side, those cf cards are very very small for what people have become used too.

This thread also serves to illustrate the need for people to have backups (true backups) for their drives, and now they can't acquire them any time soon.

The issue isn't better or worse, it's expectations and lack of fulfillment.

 

[Leo Ticheli]

Thank you, Brent,

I know you've done your best. Perhaps the Big Guy will address the issue or allow a more complete release of the information.

Best regards,

Leo

 

[Brent Carter]

And we agree with you, Zander. That is why we have media solutions coming soon that we feel are an improvement over RED-RAM and RED-DRIVE for longer takes, etc.

The reason is simple that we want you to use RED media - we place a high priority on data integrity. We only make available media that meets the demands our cameras put on it. With the data rates, etc we are talking about here, it takes a long, long time to qualify media. If people just started putting any media into a drive casing, they are assuming a huge risk with their data. They very well could be putting in something we have done R&D on, and failed it as not enough horsepower.

BC

 

[Zander]

And we agree with you, Zander. That is why we have media solutions coming soon that we feel are an improvement over RED-RAM and RED-DRIVE for longer takes, etc.

The reason is simple that we want you to use RED media - we place a high priority on data integrity. We only make available media that meets the demands our cameras put on it. With the data rates, etc we are talking about here, it takes a long, long time to qualify media. If people just started putting any media into a drive casing, they are assuming a huge risk with their data. They very well could be putting in something we have done R&D on, and failed it as not enough horsepower.

BC

I appreciate the candor Brent, and I agree RED parts have a certain level of quality and expectations. But at times it's best to let the user make their own decisions. If they can get a part that works, and they can use it even if it's from another vendor I don't see an issue with that.

Look at the Xbox 360 and their controllers. For as long as I've been using gaming consoles I have never used a controller that works better than the ones supplied by xbox. That doesn't mean they aren't sold. Sometimes they offer interesting features or different form factor, and other times they are just trying to reinvent the wheel. Either way, it doesn't stop MS from selling their controllers.

 

[Mark Phelan]

I'm just hoping the new media is affordable. RED RAM sure wasn't. The 64CF cards need to be available to the masses, and in quantity because that's a good size to be able to use and ditch the RED Drive.

 

[Rick Darge]

It was stated a few months back in a thread by Jarred that 64GB cards are going to cost $1,100.

 

[Peter Matthes]

And we agree with you, Zander. That is why we have media solutions coming soon that we feel are an improvement over RED-RAM and RED-DRIVE for longer takes, etc.

The reason is simple that we want you to use RED media - we place a high priority on data integrity. We only make available media that meets the demands our cameras put on it. With the data rates, etc we are talking about here, it takes a long, long time to qualify media. If people just started putting any media into a drive casing, they are assuming a huge risk with their data. They very well could be putting in something we have done R&D on, and failed it as not enough horsepower.

BC

Thanks so much for your candor, Brent.

Is there anyway that you can give us a ballpark guesstimate of when these new media solutions will be coming down the pike?

Even a rough idea would give many of us the ability to make educated decisions going forward.

:beer:

 

[Quentin Brown]

I appreciate Brent's replies so far and that the start of this whole thread was really a concern raised by a specific individuals issue with drive repair. But since we now know that no new orders are being taken & the supply chain for back order drives/lack of existing stock has been called into question I feel the need to have some answers to a few questions:

Do they have all the necessary replacement parts and ability to repair the RED Drives at RED UK? (& is there adequate stock of those parts to see us into the future?) - I get the impression from Brent's posts that the parts are around still but I would like confirmation on this, especially the UK part.

If so what kind of time are we talking for turnaround these days on fixing a drive? & can they provide a loan drive whilst a production one is getting fixed?

These are things I'd like to know as a UK DIT in case something happens on set or when approaching a new project and planning contingencies. I'm sure others will appreciate answers specific to their own global regions.

 

[Stephen Lovett]

Deep Breath

Deep Breath

Let's all take a deep breath.

Brent has been, is, and will be helpful to this community so let's treat him with the respect that he deserves.

Making something brand new,that has never been done before is by it's very nature unpredictable. Sometimes that can suck.

But it's what we all signed up for. They call it the bleeding edge for a reason.

I don't know anything that the rest of you don't know, but I'd point out that IBC is just weeks away, and RED has always done their level best to take care of their customers in the past, and we've got no reason to think they'll do anything but that going forward.

This thread has made it's point. "Hey our RED One's are important to us, and we need them to work, so please make sure we have media to meet our needs."

Trust me they get it.

If you are really in a bind, ask nice, you'd be surprised what community is capable of.

We are all just going to have to be a little patient... because you know...

We don't have any other choice, and getting nasty isn't going to help anybody.

Steve

 

[Jason Wingrove]

Yes thanks Brent for jumping in. Appreciated.

Must be said now though that the R1 is not 'brand new' but nor is it old.
And while its true for early adopters (god bless em) not everyone of the thousands who who followed in their footsteps agreed to sign up to ride the 'unpredictable bleeding edge'

The R1 is now an established, safe camera system thats well out of beta It's my first choice of camera system and one that i love having on my sets time and time again. It gives me completely painless filmic results time and time again..but theres a time in every products life where the 'breaking new ground and doing things never done before' slowly doesn't apply. Yes we now have MX and yes the firmware is constantly evolving but largely the hardware has been unchanged. Yes suppliers fall by the wayside but perhaps the bleeding edge custom components of 3 years ago are now approaching comparability with more widely available components? (yes ive no idea how hard this stuff is)

We're all fans here and safe to say we're familiar with the story so far, we've been along for that ride and completely understand... this thread just shows (and i know that they and you know this) that the voices of todays owners are important and they need to be supported...so they can be the ones to afford the cameras of tomorrow.