News...

[Terry VerHaar]

Oh Ye of little faith. Do you really think Red is not going to compete with an S35 model in the F3 market range?

David - On one hand, I tend to agree with this, but the conspicuous absence of the Epic-S from Jim's recent roadmap post gives me pause. It could have been an oversight but that's unlikely and, if so, probably would have been corrected by now. The cryptic nature of Jim's subsequent "hold on to your hats" posts would clearly suggest some exciting changes - perhaps to the Scarlet(s) and/or the "S" - but, for the life of me, I can't make an intelligent guess as to what those changes might be; or how the Epic-S and Scarlet roadmaps might, or might not, begin to get intertwined. 4K or a larger sensor on the Fixed, as some have suggested, seems rather unlikely to me at this stage of the game. But what other substantive changes could there be? These ARE exciting times to be a REDuser! :huh:

 

[Robert Jackson]

Building things is an interesting proposition. Nothing you "know" is really "known" until you do it. This afternoon I was cutting a piece of acrylic for a project I'm working on. I'd never cut acrylic before, but I'd watched it done. I even read some things about it before doing it. I had the right saw blades for the job and had prepped my materials properly. And three inches in the panel shattered. A couple of panels later I'm pretty sure my problem was speed. I'd been warned to go slow, but I went too slow and that's apparently just as bad.

Nobody who hasn't built anything can understand how many factors play into even simple projects. There's a nobility to the effort and a strength that comes from seeing it through and learning the skills necessary to see it to completion. Big projects...airplanes, satellites...motion picture cameras...well, those kinds of endeavors take special builders. And once those tracks are in the snow others will try to follow, but it takes time and it doesn't always work out.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Shouldn't the title of this thread be "No News..."

 

[Eric Lange]

David - On one hand, I tend to agree with this, but the conspicuous absence of the Epic-S from Jim's recent roadmap post gives me pause. It could have been an oversight but that's unlikely and, if so, probably would have been corrected by now. The cryptic nature of Jim's subsequent "hold on to your hats" posts would clearly suggest some exciting changes - perhaps to the Scarlet(s) and/or the "S" - but, for the life of me, I can't make an intelligent guess as to what those changes might be; or how the Epic-S and Scarlet roadmaps might, or might not, begin to get intertwined. 4K or a larger sensor on the Fixed, as some have suggested, seems rather unlikely to me at this stage of the game. But what other substantive changes could there be? These ARE exciting times to be a REDuser! :huh:

This is my vibe too.

It seems that Jim will move the goal posts very significantly to the right. I.e. The Epic_S will be on the turf of the Sony F65 and the new Dragon (sensor/system) will be genuine 6k. In other words their competitors will be competing with RED’s second and third tier products and won’t have any chance of touching Red’s top tier new offerings.

“We hold these truths to be self evident…” that RED (imaging wise) will absolutely blow the competition away, (i.e. no pixel “peeping” (as Jim keeps saying) is required…it will (eventually) be abundantly obvious what will be what).

As to the notion of “notional-war”; it is true if you have the field to yourself, you go at one pace and deliver nice things. As soon as someone else enters the game, then the adrenaline starts flowing and you really hit it hard. That is when you get into the mind set of OK this IS “WAR” because you are forced to really compete (because new arrivals are on your turf). Then it’s compete or die (law of the jungle). It really seems that what Jim is holding back SEEMS so devastating that these “others” that have “turned up late” will not be able to get airborne before being virtually destroyed on the ground.


I was almost at the point of speculation overload/poisoning but, this is very exciting. I have to step away and wait till the dust really settles otherwise I will simply go mad as there is so much in parallel that will be announced all at once that is very relevent to us...(like the 70’s/early 80's arcade game “missile command” (massive parallel destruction..(virtually)).

It just blows me away,… how much energy do you have (JIM???). How do you run such an innovative company, and be ring master of Reduser? (and a million other things that you have your fingers and life into?)… unbelievable energy and stamina…

Jim certainly knows how to work up a crowd…

 

[David Battistella]

Shouldn't the title of this thread be "No News..."

OK.

Everyone pull a vitual "Lord of the Flies" on Gavin now.

blast from the past...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJE6lsOi4W8

 

[Eric Lange]

Shouldn't the title of this thread be "No News..."

I thought that was pretty funny (myself…)

Although in general I find (a bit like what Terry is saying), it’s usually what they conspicuously DON”T mention that is far more revealing than what they (RED) do mention…

[poor old piggy]...

Cheers,

Eric

 

[David Battistella]

I still feel for poor old piggy. But watching that clip made me feel that cinema is not as daring as it once was. the old B&W, after seeing Gunlieks BW images I have to say an EPIC BW picture might be in order.

Sharp grain free high rez BW. Nice.

David

 

[Carter Cammack]

I still feel for poor old piggy. But watching that clip made me feel that cinema is not as daring as it once was. the old B&W, after seeing Gunlieks BW images I have to say an EPIC BW picture might be in order.

Sharp grain free high rez BW. Nice.

David

How about a comic spoof film/noir detective/murder thing? I can write one in two weeks.
Carter

 

[Kalani Prince]

I'll join these speculations.

FF35 8K Sensor aka DRAGON
Super35 1.89 mode should be 6K (6144x3240) which resolves a bit less then true 5K resolution.

Just imagine shooting in 6K (30MP) true anamorphic 2:1 mode with the brand new RPAs!

This is only my guess.

if 6k is 30mp, why is 3k like 5? I'm not a techy so please excuse my ignorance if it's an obvious one ; )

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

David - On one hand, I tend to agree with this, but the conspicuous absence of the Epic-S from Jim's recent roadmap post gives me pause. It could have been an oversight but that's unlikely and, if so, probably would have been corrected by now.

Maybe the omission of Epic-S was an oversight when he said this on September 2:

Without further details, to recap our roadmap... we have previously stated that we are working on Scarlet, REDray and a 4K projector. We also have the Dragon and Monstro sensors in development. That is all the forward thinking we can confirm and acknowledge.

The next time you will hear about any of these is when they are ready to ship.

Jim

But then he omitted mention of it from the roadmap. That seems clearly intentional to me.

4K or a larger sensor on the Fixed, as some have suggested, seems rather unlikely to me at this stage of the game.

When he said:

What seemed like a good idea 3 years ago might seem completely wrong today.

I think he was referring to a maximum of 3K on the Scarlet. I think Scarlet will be 4K, but I'm not convinced it will be a fixed-lens camera. It would seem pointless to delay Scarlet Cinema (or what may be what the Epic-S becomes) to get the fixed out the door -- maybe the lens-component sourcing issue threatened to hold up Scarlet indefinitely, so the fixed was put on the back burner.

 

[Matthias Hutter]

if 6k is 30mp, why is 3k like 5?

Two things:
* "k" is only horizontal resolution. MP is the product of horizontal and vertical, so doubling in 'k' mean quadrupling MP and so forth.
* Still sensors are more quadratical, so for a given k have more vertical resolution.

(Also his calculation is wrong, as 6144x3240 ~= 20MP which is what you would expect by doubling the k and maintaining aspect ratio)

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Maybe the omission of Epic-S was an oversight when he said this on September 2:

But then he omitted mention of it from the roadmap. That seems clearly intentional to me.



When he said:

I think he was referring to a maximum of 3K on the Scarlet. I think Scarlet will be 4K, but I'm not convinced it will be a fixed-lens camera. It would seem pointless to delay Scarlet Cinema (or what may be what the Epic-S becomes) to get the fixed out the door -- maybe the lens-component sourcing issue threatened to hold up Scarlet indefinitely, so the fixed was put on the back burner.

I certainly hope not. I think the Scarlet fixed opens so many people that have talent to get an affordable piece of equipment without having to spend an additional 10-15K on lenses alone. I'm personally torn between the two, but the affordability of the fixed is right up my alley.

 

[Nathan VanderByl]

I can't wait to hear about what REDs explosion gives birth to! Actually, ummm, that just sounds wrong...

 

[Kalani Prince]

Two things:
* "k" is only horizontal resolution. MP is the product of horizontal and vertical, so doubling in 'k' mean quadrupling MP and so forth.
* Still sensors are more quadratical, so for a given k have more vertical resolution.

(Also his calculation is wrong, as 6144x3240 ~= 20MP which is what you would expect by doubling the k and maintaining aspect ratio)

Ahh, makes perfect sense, thanks for the lesson ; )

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Maybe the omission of Epic-S was an oversight when he said this on September 2:

But then he omitted mention of it from the roadmap. That seems clearly intentional to me.

Completely agree - that was my point.

... I think Scarlet will be 4K, but I'm not convinced it will be a fixed-lens camera. It would seem pointless to delay Scarlet Cinema (or what may be what the Epic-S becomes) to get the fixed out the door -- maybe the lens-component sourcing issue threatened to hold up Scarlet indefinitely, so the fixed was put on the back burner.

That's an interesting take but I am not at all convinced that a) 4K will fit reasonably (i.e. yield the target quality and functions) on the 2/3" sensor, b) that they will dump the 2/3" sensor, or c) that they will dump the fixed lens altogether.

One thing I do see as a possibility is putting a bigger sensor into the Scarlet Interchangeable (so-called "Cinema"), but I am not at all sure how that would differ from the Epic-S and would seem to constitute an about face as it brings the larger chip back into the Scarlet line (where the Epic-S originated); knd of a weird shuffling of names is all it would seem to constitute.

I think the truth is, no amount of speculation is going to be convincing or credible until the events actually unfold.

 

[Carter Cammack]

Jim is obviously NOT SAYING something huge. When they are ready, and let him speak, KaBoom! 200 orders in 2 minutes.
Can they announce ANY new model is ready to ship until they have all the accesories, side handles, etc to ship with them?
If he says, "check back Friday" everyone tries to line up in another "Stage" que to get theirs before it hits backorder.
I can just imagine the shitstorm when Scarlet hits the store.

 

[Tommi Hares]

Dude!

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Jim... It feels like in the last few weeks things have turned a corner, like somehow you've caught a fresh vision of what Red is about. There's a fresh fight in your words. I'm liking it!

He, he...

It has been obviouse that they needed to be ahead to keep on top. Just surprised it was not upgraded a few times to take advantage of the delays. This much delay can easily give you 50% plus more processing power for the same energy envelope and maybe price. You can also significantly upgrade sensor performance and use smaller pixels.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

It's not so much a problem with the sensor as with lenses. For a 2/3-inch lens to resolve anything close to 4K it would probably cost many times what the Scarlet fixed costs.

Yes, but in the real volume world, unlike cinena, volume drastically reduces the prices of lens. The reason that digital stills has great lens options at less price. I believe Red has a volume for the lens outside the Scarlet, given a suitable mount. I have long pionted out that most 2/3rd lens will have problems rendering 3k, even hd. So given suitable mounts the Red lens has great potential fir sales to people with other cameras.

I had reservations about the resolution in times past, but mainly on pixel size and performance, but given modern technology that is more irrelevant. Red has had years now to design better sensors and a new modern hdr scheme upgrade for the future. Lens cost is still a factor at 8k at 2/3rds, but volume reduces design effort/cost per lens and allows cost streamlining for lens manufacture, going to s16 aswell would solve much of the potential issues. So 2/3rds - s16mm 4k is a welcome possibility, as is 8k on the top Epic models. Epic S is sellable even with 4k.

If you look at the cheap small ff35mm Sony consumer video cameras, it becomes evident that a bone crushing 4k s35 removable and fixed has allways been possible. It is also possible to design a wired auto removable lens that can recess inside a body aswell as bayonetted. It is also possible to make the sensor replaceable on the scarlets. Lets see how much they do of this.

There are reasons that you don't see these things done, manufactures don't want to sell you expensive cutting edge technology at low profit margins. They want to sell you lower cost yesterday technology so they can sell you some new yesterday technology to upgrade to tomorrow. Red has done the footwork in designing the circuits behind Epic and scarlet, to reduce the costs. Companies want you to buy a whole new camera rather then a sensor upgrade. And other reasons. They want your money, and not too spend too much getting it. So reasons why every professional vidrographer and cinematographer in the world should by Red.

 

[David Dennis]

I had reservations about the resolution in times past, but mainly on pixel size and performance, but given modern technology that is more irrelevant. Red has had years now to design better sensors and a new modern hdr scheme upgrade for the future. Lens cost is still a factor at 8k at 2/3rds, but volume reduces design effort/cost per lens and allows cost streamlining for lens manufacture, going to s16 aswell would solve much of the potential issues. So 2/3rds - s16mm 4k is a welcome possibility, as is 8k on the top Epic models. Epic S is sellable even with 4k.

Scarlet is still in the road map, and there were prototypes floating around a month or two ago that looked suspiciously close to production, so I'm pretty sure we will in fact have a fixed lens Scarlet. I would not be surprised if it wound up being 4K, because Jim would just love that kind of breakthrough. But we should not count on it, because of those prototypes we've all seen. Major modifications this close to production would be tricky. On the other hand, the last we heard of Scarlet is that something had to do with the lens, which might be consistent with a new sensor technology being used. So who knows?

The more surprising thing, that's genuinely driven a lot of people nuts, is the status of EPIC-S. We know something is going on because Jim has been asked repeatedly in the threads about EPIC-S, and has never replied. This means either that it will eventually be radically less expensive to buy an EPIC-X, or that a new product will be introduced that is similar to, but not identical to, EPIC-S. Here's a logical answer. EPIC-W is introduced, which has a cost-effective tweak to the brain that limits frame rates and HDRx and costs $12,000, just like EPIC-X. There might be a slight bump, like to $15k. But with a huge difference: An upgrade path. For $15,000 you can upgrade EPIC-W to EPIC-X if your needs change. The kicker, and what's majorly different, is that you will be able to upgrade EPIC-W to the Dragon sensor. The upgrade will also be $15,000 - so it will not be cheap, but it will still be significantly less expensive than a brand new camera.

Why does this seem most likely?

- EPIC-X has had a price increase, so it seems unlikely that its price will go down enough to match EPIC-S.
- Jim values his commitment to making all his cameras upgradeable. EPIC-S was not upgradeable and I think Jim didn't like that.
- Upgrade prices for EPIC-W to EPIC-X have to be high enough to not make it cost effective to buy W and then upgrade right away. So most people won't make that upgrade.
- But making an upgrade from EPIC-W to Dragon sensor EPIC-X equivalent will let people essentially get Dragon on an installment plan when they are ready. Customers will love this.
- At the same time, through a much lower upgrade price, the value of EPIC-X ownership will be protected.
- I think my numbers don't quite add up and need tweaking. But I would not be surprised at all if the overall spirit of this idea is what Jim is planning.

So there you are. The usual superb value from RED, but a change significant enough that EPIC-S would no longer exist. And Jim can say, "Yes, we're taking care of you guys and you don't need to worry."

D