New to Red and having poor results

[Paul Cronin]

Let me give a short background prior to asking my questions so you know where I am coming from.

I shoot the Sony XDCAM EX/x series camera and Convergent Design XDR Flash at 100Mbp/s 422 and 160Mbp/s I Frame which I use for multiple clients on HDTV show, corporate, etc…. Now I have added a Red One to my kit, which I have started shooting test to compare. My setup is Birger new Canon mount and edit on FCS with Mac Pro quad core 3.0, 16GB ram, Fast Dulce RAID, two Dell 24” monitors, One with MXO box, hooked up to 40”HDTV through Intensity pro card.

So my first test have showed that 1080p output which most clients need on BluRay or full size QuickTime have not been any better with the Red over the XDCAM at the above bit rates. Shooting Red at 4k, 2K over cranked which I need a lot. I know at 2K I am only using ½ of the sensor so really not a lot more then the XDCAM.

I have tried the White Paper method of Log and Transfer and setting to daylight since I am shooting at about 5600K. Then Red Digital Cinema REDCODE, Apple ProRes 422 HQ. Wow long render times 5 times the 160Mbp/s I Frame. Then I put this on a time line to match if I used 2:1 or 16:9. On the same timeline I put the XDCAM. Then also put the same footage on a XDCAM timeline. Render both (wow slow render) and burn to BluRay. I also do each separate as two chapters on BluRay. Yea I know color is not perfect but that is not the point here. I have had multiple very high end pro still and video people plus high-end client who pushed me this direction not notice which is which in the footage. I kept the DOF similar with exposure so that would not show up.

Tell me how to solve this problem or can I not solve this? Where do I go to read on this, videos on this, is there any documentation to help solve this problem? I can’t spend my time searching reduser I have a thriving business that takes 12 hrs a day 7 days a week to keep pumping out finished footage. And next week we are taking a full day in the helicopter, which I shoot a lot through out the year to test the XDCAM at 100Mbp/s 422 and 160Mbp/s I Frame against the Red to see if the Red is worth the extra post and cost.

I have a week to decide if this is going to work. Believe me I did not buy the camera to not have it work. I need to reduce render times by a very large amount and get 1080P results that show better footage then the XDCAM.

 

[Dominic Jones]

OK, well...

Firstly, you're not going to be able to massively reduce your render times. The best bet is often to transcode to an editing proxy copy (usually ProRes422 HQ) overnight during the shoot. If you do this at quarter or half res you should have a usable final image (from 4K material) depending on how particular you are, or you can conform via Crimson if you so desire once picture is locked. Do some tests to determine your favoured de-bayer res/time to transcode settings.

As a test for pure IQ, try pulling out some choice shots via RedCine, do a nice one light grade and render at Full to PR422HQ with a good down-sample filter (I tend to like Lanczos of the RC options). That will show you the best you're getting out of the clips.

Without anything to look at, there's not much more I can add than that - other than that I've shot with XDCam EX cameras, and they're not bad, but you should be getting significantly superior images from the R1 assuming that you are exposing well and grading them nicely - do bear in mind that the XDCam cameras add a lot of matrixing as standard that the R1 does not.

Also, of course, you are not doing comparative tests - you're shooting at a different stop with the XDCam specifically to mask the differences in DoF/FoV between the two. Try a comparative test (lens with similar FoV at the same aperture and focus distance) and you'll see a lot more difference...

Hope you get on OK with it - and post some comparison images if you want/need more advice...

Cheers,
Dom.

EDIT: Oh, and if you don't have time to hunt through RedUser (which is fair enough!), then hire a Red experienced post supervisor/consultant to show you through it all - the ol' good/fast/cheap, triangle, as always!

 

[Paul Cronin]

Dom thanks for the quick response.

Wow over night I can't do that on most of my shoots. We shoot that day and delivery that evening and off to the next job.

I am sorry I do not know what (software?) Crimson is but will do a search.

Today right now I am doing test with best exposure for each camera. Remember I am shooing the XDCAM HD-SDI out so not compressing in the camera it is a very high bit rate at 160Mbp/s which is not even close to the look and lower quality of the 35Mbp/s in the camera. I have tested often since I do shoot onto the S&S cards at the same time for backup and can compare. I have had client ask me if it was HDCam.

Fair enough hiring some one might be the solution to the edit workflow but quality must be there first.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Paul.

First, I commend you on running a business that is doing well in tough times. So, you are doing something right for sure.

I'm currently writing an article that will address the exact situation you are in. It focuses on the perspective of a producer trying to jump into the Red world and knowing when it's a good fit and when it's not.

In some ways, I feel like you may have answered your own question when it comes to timeframe. To get the absolute best results from the Red One requires either expensive post tools or transcoding time. Based on your quick turnarounds, long transocde times don't seem to be an option. If you are getting good results with the Sony and convergent designs system, maybe that is good enough. What Red offers you over that system is a 35mm sensor, access to cine lenses, an instant cinematic image, REDCODE RAW if you don't want everything baked in on set, and a workflow that is evolving and getting better each day.

At 1080 with lower light levels the matchup gets a lot closer. The Sony is very good in low light. Red can be good, it just requires fast lenses, occasional shutter speed compromises, a good handle on RAW post processing, and a lot of skill in video noise reduction. The last two of course take some time. If you light a scene well, which is the goal of cinematic storytelling the two cameras sart to seperate from each other. Sony will still look really good, but the strengths of the Red will start to swing the pendulum in Red's favor.

I'm hoping that the reduser event this year will help people who still have not found a good Red workflow for themselves. You'll have the tools and the people who make the tools right there to talk to.

Have you tried proxie workflow in conjunction with Clipfinder? That can be very fast. Have you seen Mark Toia's work?

 

[Brent J. Craig]

Wow over night I can't do that on most of my shoots. We shoot that day and delivery that evening and off to the next job.

Sounds like Red is not the camera for you, then.

Red is more like shooting film - something needs to be done with the negative/RAW the camera produces to make it usable.

There are many labs that will transcode your footage or lay it out to tape, but this is usually an overnight process and adds to the cost.

 

[Paul Hazlett]

you could shoot 4k and use the 2k proxies to edit right away. Red one is not really a run and gun edit on the fly camera IMHO. If you want the best from the camera you need a little time with the images.

 

[Joel Kaye]

I need to reduce render times by a very large amount and get 1080P results that show better footage then the XDCAM.

Aside from the DOF the XDCAM kills. The workflow is the best out there and the image is terrific. I shot my RED alongside 3 XDCam 350's not long ago. They are great cameras (no overheating TYVM). Several friends have EX1's which are the same chip I've been told.

RED at 2K is significantly uglier than 4K and I don't believe it holds up against an XDCAM at 1080P.

RED just looks better than anything else (to me) when you want to shoot 35mm style. My stuff looked like a movie and their stuff looked like reality TV.

Same day turnaround - shoot 4KHD, edit proxies in FCP and use compressor to compress the final version. That's the fastest workflow I believe. You lose a little quality but with well lit daylight stuff it looks great.

Face it, the XDCams were built to deliver 1080P fast. I'm not sure anything else can compete with them for that.

 

[Dominic Jones]

I have to say I'm pretty much with Brent on this one - if your turnaround time is that drastic, you're not going to get the best out of a Red, unfortunately.

You could try the suggestion of 4KHD and proxy editing (will require a grade), but as Joel quite rightly states, the XDCam's are built exactly for the purpose you're putting them too - and they are good!

Horses for courses - I'd never even think of taking a Red out on a news shoot, for instance, but then I wouldn't consider taking a DVCPro ENG camera out to shoot high-end drama.

Hope you find a solution that works for you, and do remember - if it ain't broke, don't fix it! The XDCams sound like just the ticket for your workflow, and you're obviously pleasing your clients if you're run off your feet in these times...

Out of interest, on a total aside, how much interest would you have in a device that records direct to ProRes422 HQ (or DNxHD) from the HD-SDI outs, and how much would you be willing to pay for such a device of you were interested??

Sorry for the OT question guys!

Cheers,
Dom.

 

[M Most]

I know at 2K I am only using ½ of the sensor so really not a lot more then the XDCAM.

Actually, in terms of information capture, it's a bit less than the XDCam because the XDCam has 3 image sensors, not one. Total "megapixels" would be about 5.7 for the Red in 2K mode, but 6.2 for the XDCam.

Your description of your shooting conditions seems to indicate that the XDCam, particularly with the recording approach you're taking, is likely a better fit than a Red One.

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Fit the camera to the work, not the work to the camera...

REd is a Digital "Cinema" Camera company... its workflow is not unlike film.

I currently use both cameras... and will tell you this... as great as it is for 1080P. I will NEVER try to use an EX-1 for a film shoot again...

 

[Sidney L. Plaut]

Are you putting the RED footage in a xdcamHD timeline in FCP? - if so you are recompressing the RED footage into the very compressed XDCAM HD codec... that will hurt image quality. especially if you go .r3d to prorez to xdcamhd...

as has been mentioned RED is more like shooting film takes a bit longer in post - that said you can get very good results using proxies and render them uncompressed on your timeline -

if you dont plan on color grading your footage, or only apply a slight grade then shoot in "RED space", that applies a "pre grade" that looks pretty good.

The RED likes a lot of light... expose to the right... meaning better to "over expose a bit" to get less noise and higher resolution...

There is no affordable camera out there right now that can give you the potential image quality the RED can deliver - but there is a pretty steep learning curve to achieving that....

 

[Paul Cronin]

Wow out for a 2 hr shoot and all of these responses. Thanks to all for putting your valuable time to help solve my problem. I will try and answer in order of responses to show appreciation for each of your answers.

Steve,
It will be interesting to read your article sounds like you hit the nail on the head with my situation.
I agree I have answered my own question. Red is an excellent camera and at 4K produces footage that is stunning. But for me time is money and I must keep moving or I will not make money.
I agree at 1080p after shooting the Red at 2K 120fps (why I bought the camera) the quality is not up to what I expected. Again 4K is fantastic.

Brian,
Correct I have answered my own question XDCAM is the workflow to match my current needs. Maybe I should go for the new XDCAM-700 to have bigger sensor and better glass. Or just stay with the EX3 and thoughts on that?
My mistake thinking I could do the editing too fast.

Paul,
I shoot 2K due to needed the slow motion that is why I purchased the camera. Ah caught by the marketing my mistake.

Joel,
XDCAM does kill and for my clients I think it is for me. I will ask again EX3 or 700 is the 700 worth the money?

Dominic, not sure if I would be interested in your box having the C-D Box already.

Mmost, more Megapixels on the (XDCAM EX is 6.2?) that answers a lot of questions.

Tim I agree but I do not shoot films maybe some day, and where I shoot at times a Red could not do the shoot. Like up a mast 80 feet off the water sailing offshore. For that shoot the EX1 is perfect. Then editing at the Navagation stations on a MacBook Pro for delivery when you hit the dock 2 hrs later.

Oh well, another lesson learned. Anyone what a good deal on a one-month-old camera? It is going up in the classified today.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

I have to say, I do a lot of post work with very tight turn around working with Red footage and there is a workflow appropriate for that. In my humble opinion, using log and transfer to import your dailies is crazy. I drag and drop my Red footage parent folder (from the finder) to my FCP project, it auto creates bins for each shot, and I begin to edit immediately with the proxy files, no ingest time. As fast as I can copy my Red source files to my RAID, I can start to edit.

Once my cut is locked, I export an XML file, use Crimson (http://www.crimsonworkflow.com/) to convert that XML for Redcine (http://www.red.com/support), use Redcine to transcode ONLY THE SELECTS I NEED with powerful reformatting controls mind you. Redcine averages about two frames per second realtime with 4K source footage. Then roundtrip an XML through Crimson back to FCP and now I am working with automatically conformed, uncompressed 10-bit transcodes from the Red raw files in FCP. I then export this to Color for grading, then send back rendered to FCP ready to output.

There is no good reason in my estimation to process all your footage before editing, or processing more footage than you end up using in your cut to get the best results out of the raw files. Crimson is a great tool for round tripping your timelines through Redcine, which is free btw. Crimson costs $189.99, but there is a demo version that will translate 5 clips for you to play with first. Monkey Extract, a similar product is worth looking into as well.

I will admit that the Crimson workflow method was a bit confusing the first time I did it, but it's second nature to me now, and makes working with Red efficient in terms of edit time and Hard Drive space.

Worth mentioning, I wrote a workflow manual that I shared with this forum back in July. The post was quickly overrun by rants of all sorts and I haven't updated it since, but it's a valid starting point if your new to Crimson and Redcine, very detailed step by step.

Good luck,

Brandon.

 

[M Most]

Mmost, more Megapixels on the (XDCAM EX is 6.2?) that answers a lot of questions.

1920x1080x3 = 6,220,800 or 6.2 megapixels for the XDCam.

4520x2540/2 = 5,740,400 or 5.7 megapixels for the Red.

Not that megapixels are a particularly valid measurement of overall performance, but in terms of information gathering, that's how many bits of information are there to start with. There is also the important factor of how many red, green, and blue pixels are included in that number. For the Red, 2/3 of the pixels are green. For the XDCam, there are an equal number of red, green and blue pixels (1/3 each). None of these things are "better" or "worse," they're simply design choices or the end result of design choices, and each represents different tradeoffs. But you are correct, it does begin to explain why the images you're getting from the XDCam are very competitive with the Red in 2K mode, and lower noise as well.

 

[Brian D. Goff]

2K mode, and lower noise as well.

As far as I know, cameras like the EX do a lot of on-board image enhancements during compression - with RED you do all that kind of magic in the post process. About noise, there are some great noise reduction software, that do magic with all the bit depth of the .r3d files. Below is a image boosted to 2000asa and 200% crop. Without post work unusable, but with a nice noise reduction software (neatvideo) - it's great. I don't think an EX with the compresion codec it uses will alowy any realy great post work options...

 

[M Most]

As far as I know, cameras like the EX do a lot of on-board image enhancements during compression - with RED you do all that kind of magic in the post process....I don't think an EX with the compresion codec it uses will alowy any realy great post work options...

I think you're taking this thread off into an area it was never intended to go. The original post indicated there is minimal time for any post work beyond basic editorial. It also indicated the attractiveness of a small physical size, as well as a simple and rapid post path without the need for any file processing. And as far as codecs go, the poster also made it clear he is using an external recording system and bypassing the XDCam compression scheme. These requirements led myself and others to the conclusion that the EX is likely a better choice for this particular user given those shooting and posting conditions.

Anyone posting here clearly has a liking for what Red has done and is doing. That doesn't mean that the current Red One camera is perfect for anything and everything regardless of the shooting conditions and the delivery requirements. It's not.

 

[Antoine Fabi]

Hi Paul,

I own both a RED One and a XDCAM-EX1.
The little EX-1 is a very nice lightweight camera, but it is not even close to the visual quality you can achieve with the RED One.
You should be able to very clearly see the much tighter grain structure and true definition (luma and chroma) advantage of the RED One on a BluRay.

If you do not see the difference on a BluRay, then something is wrong with the workflow, or the image has been degraded somewhere in the conversion/compression path.

That said, yes the RED workflow takes a lot more time due to the debayer and conversion to your editing codec. But...you have to consider it like a film camera, because it IS a film camera, "digital film" i'd call it
Not for every circomstances. It depends on the final goal.

Antoine

 

[Paul Cronin]

Thanks Antoine,

The workflow does not fit my current situation. I agree the Red is a great camera.

I appreciate your help and all of the help on this site but it is time for me to move on and keep the jobs rolling.

Once I take picture I will post the camera for sale.

 

[Paul Rosckes]

I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but the new 4K HD mode in build 18 (which shoots 3840x2160) was specifically designed to provide a faster and higher quality downconvert to 1080P. Unfortunately, I don't have any specific data on how much faster it is verses for 4K 16:9, but it might be worth testing for future projects. And remember that you don't have to drop all the way to 2K for better framerates. At 3K you can shoot at 50-60fps (depending on your storage) using REDCODE28 (I believe the XDCAM does a maximum of 30fps at 1080P). Sure, it's not 120fps! But it might be a good compromise between image quality and framerate. But beware of using 3K with Apple Color, because it will auto-resize it to 1.5K since color only supports a max resolution of 2K (hopefully, this "bug" will be addressed in a future version of Color).

Also, the new Mac Pros that were just introduced should dramatically speed up downconvert/transcoding.

Again, all of these tweaks probably won't get you to where you need to be compared to the XDCAM workflow. But, it might help for future projects where you get an extra day or two.

-Paul

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Faster

Faster

I agree with Mike that in your specific situation, with the smart choice you made of bypassing the compression to the onboard media, the EX series Sony rigs are a good fit.

Even though this thread is essentially served its useful lifespan I did want to mention something that others in situations similar to yours, but more committed to the image quality of the RedOne, might consider. Because many of my gigs require the client to have footy at the end of the day I use the Scratch Cine solution with an AJA ioHD box to create ProResHQ with a primary grade in real time in a van I bring to set.

Anyone curious about this can get more info on my website alacritymedia.com, I don't wish to use any further RedUser bandwidth to pimp my biz but the concept of faster turnarounds for RedCode is worth noting.

Another note would be that you could always rent a RedOne for overcrank work rather than owning.