New Sony PXW-FS7 4k camera

[Mike S. M.]

i don't think it is out of the question for sony to release a f65 follow up (with new sensor) next year for less then 20000$. f5 to fs7 was 20k to 8k, f35 to f65 was 300?400?k down to 60k, and the f65 will be 4 years old next year. f95 in 2015 for 18k?
it really does not matter anyway, the new panasonic looks really nice as well (altough i believe it is too expensive?), aja, blackmagic, everybody is pushing towards pretty amazing 4k and all for less then red charges for an upgrade.

F35 was $200K not 300 or 400. And the F65 came at $85K, not $60K.

F65 will not be 4 years old at all next year. It is now barely 2 years old. It came out end of 2011 but only shipped in numbers in early 2012.

FS7 is not as good as F5.

 

[Mike S. M.]

wrong, but I'll let you continue believing they are the same. I was emphasizing Does Not, not being cocky. Best of luck in your endeavors here...

Believe me, it's the same sensor. Look at the sensor specs on all 3 cameras. It is the same sensor and it has been said.

 

[Daniel Stilling]

Grading slog3 can hopefully get rid of the vanilla, Daniel ;-)

One would hope so. But this is what Sony put forth as the best it can look. Not overly impressed. But a good value for the money.
But honestly in this day and age, a capable DP can make any of the newer cameras look good. It should be the same with this one...

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Going back to the Scarlet v FS7 debate, it's a killer deal (bearing in mind prices have not yet been set in stone). The camera looks solid from head to toe and really affordable and a hell of a lot lighter. I shot a doc recently for Aljazeera English on the Scarlet and it looks great, but I have also suffered a fair bit legging my Petrol rucksack at 2,000 meters altitude near the border with the Congo (http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/witness/2014/04/justice-seekers-201449105827945155.html).

RED is solid but very heavy for doc work, or solo shooting. This Sony camera fills that gap perfectly together with what appears to be a great sensor and maybe without the crop factor of the RED. For feature/drama work I love my Scarlet and I still haven't found a camera that offers you so much in terms of customising your guides and your presets, etc. But I also love the cinematic dimension it allows you to bring to doc work. I would like to know more about the Sony on this front. .

Agreed. THis camera looks like a pretty much perfect doco camera for me. Btw, what recent Al Jaz Eng did you shoot? I shot the 101 east one on plastic surgery...

 

[Brian Pascale]

Will take a serious look at this camera. Can't imagine I will be upgrading my Scarlet when I can get a second camera for less and fits my shooting style better. More likely I will wait a year and see what then landscape looks like then.

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

no thanks

 

[Christof Paul]

The f95 is coming... 9K sensor subsampled to 8K RAW recording via recorder deck and 4K internal prores/dnxhd up to 240fps as well as 8K XAVC in camera up to 60fps. Global shutter, native 2000ISO (Clean up to 5000ISO) due to it's 100db S/N ratio, 15 stops of dynamic range, 240fps at 4K, 160fps at 6K, 120fps at 8K, 4k live output via sdi for live broadcast or external recording device like a 7Q. It will also be smaller in size than the current f65. It will also get a price drop from the f65 and body alone will run around $30k.

Hold onto your pants at NAB 2015...

i wasn't aware of the spec and am not sure if you are serious but all in all it makes a lot of sense to me and it all sounds about right. i would not be surprised if the DR is more towards the 16 stops and iso might be a little higher. price does not really matter because it will pretty much be the camera to beat and sony can make it cheaper then anyone else can.

 

[Christof Paul]

F35 was $200K not 300 or 400. And the F65 came at $85K, not $60K.

F65 will not be 4 years old at all next year. It is now barely 2 years old. It came out end of 2011 but only shipped in numbers in early 2012.

FS7 is not as good as F5.

my point was obviously lost on you: does it matter if a camera is 200 or 300000$? it is the same target group of buyers.
2011 to 2015 is 4 years in my book
why is that? because you say so? or because sony is worried about people won't buy it because they just spent 20k on an f5 and now they are getting the same performance for 8K? FS7=F5=F55 because we know that with the hack F5=F55.

 

[Jason Rudd]

In terms of pricing, it's all a race to the bottom. The only way to keep a price high is to develop a brand mystique, like Arri and yes Red.
The people who benefit most from cheaper cameras are the PRODUCERS. Not you, the camera owner / operator my co-horts and peers on this forum.
It's wonderful what's happened to democratize the availability to high end imaging tools, and the FS7 only makes it better. As a creator, there's never been a better time.
At the same time, I've noticed over TEN years of competing and observation that the lower prices have been for digital cameras, the more of an abundance and over-saturation of owner / operators. Sure your skill, experience and talent will win out in the end, but it's harder to get recognized over the heap of people who are in the pool.
So while we may all be psyched about the FS7 and its pricing, owner / operators should already know that their rates have to be lower because the competitions rates are lower and there's more of them buying this same cheaper camera which you can't charge like a Red Epic. Your margins will be lower and lower as prices get lower, guaranteed. In the end, for you, it's not just about technology but also how it all plays with your livelihood. It's definitely something to think about!!

 

[Clayton Burkhart]

In terms of pricing, it's all a race to the bottom. The only way to keep a price high is to develop a brand mystique, like Arri and yes Red.
The people who benefit most from cheaper cameras are the PRODUCERS. Not you, the camera owner / operator my co-horts and peers on this forum.
It's wonderful what's happened to democratize the availability to high end imaging tools, and the FS7 only makes it better. As a creator, there's never been a better time.
At the same time, I've noticed over TEN years of competing and observation that the lower prices have been for digital cameras, the more of an abundance and over-saturation of owner / operators. Sure your skill, experience and talent will win out in the end, but it's harder to get recognized over the heap of people who are in the pool.
So while we may all be psyched about the FS7 and its pricing, owner / operators should already know that their rates have to be lower because the competitions rates are lower and there's more of them buying this same cheaper camera which you can't charge like a Red Epic. Your margins will be lower and lower as prices get lower, guaranteed. In the end, for you, it's not just about technology but also how it all plays with your livelihood. It's definitely something to think about!!

I totally agree. In France today most DOP's day rates are based on the cameras they use reguarly. X is an Alexa man, Y is an FS700 guy. Guess which one get's paid more? The reality is that the unrealistically high pricing of the Varicam is based on this very reasoning. However, RED is now owned by so many owner/operators that rates have fallen through the floor for them. Dragon owners do get paid more, but we will see how long that lasts. The FS7 will be the everyman cam, and he will be paid accordingly. Make no mistake.

The only way out of this conundrum is to have a style so completely your own that a client is willing to pay for what you got, and I am not talking about the camera you own.

 

[Dennis Hingsberg]

The sensor from the A7S is more fuller frame, around 12MP whereas the F5 and F55 are 8.9MP. The F5 and FS700 according to some sources and tests would appear to use the same sensor, and the new FS7 also uses the F5/FS700 sensor. The F55 has it's own unique sensor due to its electronic global shutter, and the F65 is also a completely different sensor called "Q67" featuring a 45 degree rotated array of pixels. Only the F55 and F65 have a color filter array "better suited" for digital cinema since the other Sony's CFA is limited to REC709 color space, even if captured in RAW on FS700/F5/FS7 it is still limited to REC709.

The Sony's I'm afraid, even my F55, out of the box looks very videoy in my opinion but better than that FS7 video that was posted which looked unsaturated and just all around dull. I suspect they shot in slog3 and it was not graded very well.

The feautures of the FS7 are rivalling to the F5 and F55. I wasn't too thrilled when 4K was announced for the F5 since part of my justification to buy the F55 18 months ago for the extra money was the fact it could shoot 4K internally.. but early adopters always get the shaft so I got over it quickly and think the FS7 has given the F5 more a run for the money than anything I need to worry about. I still have global shutter, 4K live out, and extended color gamut CFA.

:bored:

As for the RAW on the FS7/F5 the output on the FS700 and FS7 is limited to 12-bit RAW which you can capture with an Odyssey or HXR ($2200) + R5 ($5300). On the F5 you get 16-bit RAW and some tests have shown very little if not hard to notice differences between the FS700 RAW and F5 RAW. So I would suspect that the FS7 RAW is going to be more or less along the same lines of FS700/F5 RAW. We will know soon enough.

As for FS7 vs Scarlet, I still think RED delivers on image which to me at least is more "filmic" and pleasing. It could be the vast amount of time and effort RED put into their color science which is something Sony does not really do or seem to care about in my opinion. They have a few LUTs they provided but the look applied to footage still leaves it looking clinical and missing something that I see when I want to compare it to "film". It may or may not matter depending on what you're shooting or for who. Aside from "image" sure the Sony packs a lot more in feature-wise, etc.. but I think anyone shooting on RED does it for the sake of the image and doesn't worry about "other" features or lack of.

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

Believe me, it's the same sensor. Look at the sensor specs on all 3 cameras. It is the same sensor and it has been said.

You are 100% right - it is the Same Sensor. FS700,F5 and new FS7. .... But processing is not.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

Interesting discussion on many fronts. It is incredible how fast things have jumped in 5 years. I remember in 2008 shooting a piece using a Nikon D3 in fast frame mode. It was like 12 frames a second I think to achieve that slight stuttering look. But the pictures were great and you could tell right then that the road from that to 4K 24fps was short. In that very brief moment in time we were all coming from film and Varicam and DV, and there was an obvious hunger and excitement for a low cost camera that could produce cinematic results. Red was really one of the first to make a truly satisfying digital cinema camera. Canon 5D and 7D brought the flavor for cheap and we haven't looked back. We should also remember that Arri made some pretty lame forays into the space before nailing it.

What we didn't foresee was that the world would start to explode with aspiring film-makers and DPs as people have mentioned. And I think there has been an interesting development where the camera is being made so facile, like the Gh4 and A7S to name two, that a content person who would have needed a DP can now shoot for themselves. Which is great for them, and I guess worrisome to a would-be DP.

In all the discussion of cameras themselves there seem to be be two very distinct worlds. There is professional broadcast, film, promotional content that is still inclined to use the best tools for the job like Arri, Red and Sony's higher end products. And then there is the rest of it. Canon C series, lower end Sony, Blackmagic etc... I feel like a lot of the cannibalization is happening in the lower tier and I would say a lot of people have blown through a heap of money trying to keep abreast of the incremental tech advances. One could make a case that they have gotten played, as manufacturers have preyed on insecurities about bit depth and pixels.

Red to date should be commended for being one of the less cynical manufacturers. And Arri should be commended for holding the professional line and putting out a product that has kept some semblance of 'pro' in the business protecting a lot of jobs. But as many point out, and I guess is obvious and inevitable, the lower cost tools will keep improving to the point that the distinctions will be pretty much moot. And then what? I think it will come down to one is either making a living in their chosen profession or not. Skill. Contacts and opportunities. And perhaps camera people realizing they will have to become content people to survive.

Interesting times indeed. At least for now there isn't a chip for your dreams, or ideas, or stories, or vision.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

There will always be a place for more expensive camera systems. People(clients) like to be seen as "better" or more "high end", so they will pay more. These are good clients.

 

[Mike S. M.]

You are 100% right - it is the Same Sensor. FS700,F5 and new FS7. .... But processing is not.

Well I didn't say processing was the same. I said the sensor was the same and that the different processing is what gives the F5 it's different sensitivity and dynamic range.

But I'm glad others are chiming in to support my claim. I thought this was well known already, but some people here like Matt Ryan were calling me out on it. Can't be too surprised people didn't know it here. This is not a sony board.

 

[Mike S. M.]

2011 to 2015 is 4 years in my book

Only if you don't count months. The F65 came out in October 2011 if I'm not wrong. So it will be only 3 years next month. But only pre-production models were going around. It started shipping in numbers in early 2012. So basically it wont really be 4 years till 2016.

why is that? because you say so? .

No. Because the FS7 only does 12 bit and the F5 does 16 bit and a few other things which are very clear if you take the time to look at both cameras.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

No. Because the FS7 only does 12 bit

So does Alexa.

Only 12 bit in RAW.

 

[Note Suwanchote]

anyone know if 1080p is 10 bit?

 

[Mike Garrick]

@ Dennis

Thanks for a F55 owner's take on this camera. I can't say shooting Rec709 is my idea of fun. Also interesting how a 12 stop DR sensor becomes a 14 stop sensor with some different boards....is this Sony's version of uprezing ; ).

You also confirmed my own observations (post earlier) about that Sony F5/55 look. However the F65 is a stellar image imo . slays the competition and yet it appears Sony is phasing it out ...way to go Sony.

Also some confusion about getting raw out of the F7. From your post you seem to be saying you need a "Odyssey or HXR ($2200) + R5 ($5300) " module . Do you need the combo or can it be one or the other?

 

[Mike S. M.]

So does Alexa.

Only 12 bit in RAW.

This was not the point. The point was comparing the FS7 with the F5.

12 bit is definitely nothing to sneeze at. It's great. But 16 bit is better.