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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New, second camera? Arri Mini or another Red?

I currently own a RED Epic-X Dragon and love it. That being said, my jobs have lead me to more Alexa work as I'm doing much more commercial and TV work. Anything above HD for most of my shooting is overkill, even for feature work. Most people, crew and producers alike prefer ARRI on set and in post.

I've been torn on wether or not to hold onto my Dragon, but with each new sensor and body that gets teased I feel like I need to sell it while I still can. ARRI has a safer life cycle and I don't see myself jumping through hoops to justify why I should use my Alexa on jobs as much as the RED. They both have great looks, but the Alexa is just more, out of the box, easier to use shoot with and is what people are used to paying real rental rates for. Since only owning my Mini for a 3 months, I've recouped about 20% of my initial investment, whereas it took years to pay off my RED upgrades Scarlet/EpicMX/Dragon.

Good luck on whatever your decision is. You are in a good spot regardless of what route you go.
 
Eirik Nicolai Heim said:
Thanks for all the inputs yet again.
Feels like the "only" cons of the Mini is the resolution and for that I have the Red.

Picture wise I think I still like the Arri a bit more actually than my own Red.

But I think it all comes down to what is the smartest camera business wise for me, and it feels like the Arri Mini is a winner there. I get the resolution "problem", but at the same time I am not sure that people will move from S35 sensors any time soon in my area, and as I understand, Arri will not have a S35 camera with 4k or more resolution any time soon. The LF is much more expensive, much bigger and I would need bigger and new glass. It will not fit into a Movi Pro and so on.

Feels like as long as Arri have the upper hand on rentals and for my jobs, and no S35 4k or more cameras, the Arri mini is the way to go. I am not dissing Red, I have been very satisfied with it. It has had the upper hand on resolution for a long time now, but still "all" wants the Arri Mini.
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That new Gemini sensored camera looks good. Not as good as the Monstro but having a sensor that can switch between low light and normal light without having to change OLPFs, the footage was remarkable.
 
It is great that Red develops new product for sure.

What do you think about matching Red helium and Alexa mini footage?
 
Eirik Nicolai Heim said:
It is great that Red develops new product for sure.

What do you think about matching Red helium and Alexa mini footage?
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If that was addressed to me, sorry, I can't help. As a camera owner rather than a renter, I'm immersed in the RED culture and have had zero experience with ARRI products.

Even so, I am following Jim Jannard over to Hydrogen. He is not called the Red Leader for nothing, so I'm following the leader. '-)
 
After looking at different Mini rigs and accessories, I am actually considering the Arri Alexa LF as well. Both are expensive options, but the difference is not that big as I thought.
Then I do not have to worry about the sub 4k as well and finally have a camera that is not a modular camera (Red, Mini) that is ready to shoot.
 
Eirik Nicolai Heim said:
After looking at different Mini rigs and accessories, I am actually considering the Arri Alexa LF as well. Both are expensive options, but the difference is not that big as I thought.
Then I do not have to worry about the sub 4k as well and finally have a camera that is not a modular camera (Red, Mini) that is ready to shoot.
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The issue is the new LPL mounts. I suppose you are going to have think about the cost and rental of Signature lenses and that is a whole new BIG ballpark. Further, the LF is signifigantly more expensive than a mini, so I am not sure how you arrive at the notion of them not being that far apart. Not saying it's not a worthy investment, but if your pockets are actually this deep, perhaps the fact you are vacillating to this degree on a forum, means you should wait. Just wait. Let the cards fall for a while and see if it still makes sense in a few more weeks. Time has a way of clarifying things that all the forum responses you could get here would never accomplish.
 
C. Burkhart said:
The issue is the new LPL mounts. I suppose you are going to have think about the cost and rental of Signature lenses and that is a whole new BIG ballpark. Further, the LF is signifigantly more expensive than a mini, so I am not sure how you arrive at the notion of them not being that far apart. Not saying it's not a worthy investment, but if your pockets are actually this deep, perhaps the fact you are vacillating to this degree on a forum, means you should wait. Just wait. Let the cards fall for a while and see if it still makes sense in a few more weeks. Time has a way of clarifying things that all the forum responses you could get here would never accomplish.
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As of my understanding, with the included PL - to LPL mount I can utilize the same S35 lenses in the same resolutions as on a Mini but also be future proof with the possibility to use the bigger than full frame sensor with optimised lenses either with the new signature series or full fram PL lenses, spehrical or anamorph as well. The LF will do both. There will be some differences of course when it comes to fps where the mini has 200, but or my use the LF is fast enough. And I will still have a Red for higher speeds.

The "problem" could be the form factor and that it is more expensive, but at the same time, it would be very nice to have a ready to shoot camera instead of building a Red/Mini. It will be a solid camera not like 4 plates under the camera like the Mini if you want to use the Pb8/9. I can also use my Red as a gimbal camera and fits very well with the "pro red" movi pro gimbal.
 
C. Burkhart said:
... Not saying it's not a worthy investment, but if your pockets are actually this deep, perhaps the fact you are vacillating to this degree on a forum, means you should wait. Just wait. Let the cards fall for a while and see if it still makes sense in a few more weeks. Time has a way of clarifying things that all the forum responses you could get here would never accomplish.
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C Burkhart is offering some good suggestions here Eirik. You might also consider a good-as-new used Monstro that you can own discounted near $20,000 from new (mine and one other I've seen on REDuser.) I've done limited quick test on my Monstro with Nikon glass and an old large throat manual Nikon mount. Maybe a little dimming at the corners or maybe I just expect that to be the case. But my earlier intentions, formed a couple of years ago when I signed up for the 8k VV, was to use Medium Format glass. I have been using Mamiya 645 glass on a Raven and love the look.

But I'm intrigued by the Hydrogen phone-sized cameras and am shifting all my resources to that, (I've ordered 12) hence the Monstro sale. The other guy selling said it was because he had two of them and was selling the one.

Just saying it is my studied opinion that if you want to be seen in your rental market as the guy that has perfect 8k, Monstro is the buy whether mine, the other guy on REDuser, or new.
 
Resolution is not the most important thing for me. The picture and the what the marked around me wants. And I still have an 8k helium sensor (yeah it is not Monstro).
Almost nobody wants Red around. The only ones who wants it are smaller production who can not afford a bigger crew or Arri. And why should the then rent the Monstro? It is almost as expensive as the Arri cameras but not by any means as popular around me for now.
 
It seems you easily laid out the logic and reasoning to go with the Arri Mini (is the new LF out of your price range?). For you personally at least, for the circles you're working in, it seems an Arri makes a lot of sense.
 
RED has had quite a few upgrades from Epic MX to todays top shelf cameras and it´s easy to forget thats something arri also have gone trough. And to me it is pretty obvious that in a very short time arri will have something like the LF also in the format of the mini. They will simply not stay 3k for their smaller cameras for much longer.

The screens are now in place to call their bluff of resolution does not matter and people see the difference in their home on thier netflix shows etc. Before, UHD was spread not so much. So very likely arri will pull out a +4k S35 mini very soon. Then the old minis will not be as hot any more, just like the MX, dragon helium etc. The evolution goes on also on the blue side.
 
Eirik Nicolai Heim said:
Resolution is not the most important thing for me. The picture and the what the marked around me wants. And I still have an 8k helium sensor (yeah it is not Monstro).
Almost nobody wants Red around. The only ones who wants it are smaller production who can not afford a bigger crew or Arri. And why should the then rent the Monstro? It is almost as expensive as the Arri cameras but not by any means as popular around me for now.
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Here's why resolution perhaps should be the most important thing.

https://www.redsharknews.com/product...raeme-nattress


Even home security cameras are 4k :)
 
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Resolution is important for sure, I agree. But it is not the most important thing. The picture is, the demand and most trusted camera in the industry. If resolution was the most important thing, there would only be Reds in the cinema world. But is that happening? No.
I still like my Red Epic W with the helium sensor and I have been very happy with owning a Red all the time. But that does not help me when clients and the jobs I am getting now wants Arri if the can afford it, and "do we have to shoot with Red" if that is what they can afford. I have no problems shooting with the Red and I know my camera well, but around here lots of the DPs are so just to Arri, and do not like all the updates Reds offer with new firmware, IPP2, green tint on the helium and so on. There are work arounds for everything, but with Arri you do not need a work around and the productions are used to it. I am neither a Arri or Red Fan boy, just how it is around here.
But the 4k thing with the Arri is a matter for sure. You can of course upsample it or use the UHD up res in camera that will work for everything except Netflix. So I do not think that will be a problem for me. I am not a big rental house and Netflix productions will not be renting much from me. And I am also getting an anamorphic series from Atlas and will work great with the Mini (also the red, but less cropping). Yeah, I know you still have more resolution with 8k 6:5, but that is still not everything.

I will not opt for an LF because of the costs, and that it is to much of a "studio camera" for me; weight wise and power hungry.

I know that Arri will make their lenses 15% more expensive and their cameras 7% more expensive from 1st of May. I have to pull the plug before that or no MINI at all.
 
I think you had made up your mind before your OP. :)

Happy to confirm your long held decision. Go ARRI.
 
Yeah, I have maybe kind of convinced myself before this thread, but it is better to "talk out loud", than just in your own head when making decisions like this :)
 
That's not a bad choice, TBH. At worst, the Alexa Mini is a far smarter buy than the LF. By far. And as I said previously, screw the Alexa for all it's worth - if clients really want it, charge them and charge them GOOD!
 
Im not able to say how soon. And I have no insight about arri and thier plans. But I been in this industry since before standard def turned digital and I feel quite confident that I’m able to sense certain trends. 4k or above resolution on all cinema grade cameras is one such trend. Need to read read fortune cookies to see it coming. Arri has taken notice of the fact, So has the top tier of thier user base. People that tested LF or XL usually tune down their speaches about resolution that does not matter quite quickly.

If they got a LF at hand then the mini quite quickly becomes the B camera something they tend to avoid using. Until now Mini or XT did not matter much as both gave the same “perfect picture” well that only apply until something better is released and LF is better. So the demand for a mini able to shoot the same quality is what will be requested. Thinking that such camera will never be released is to mi kind of like thinking “hardiscs are big enough” or “a computer does not need more ram”. Well they always do and these things tend to move at quite high pace. I would not be at all surpriced if LF mini was available next NAB. I would actually be more surpriced if it was not.
 
If we go by the timeline of the Alexa classic-> mini it is going to be a while. ARRI is in no hurry, they don't need to be. Also, contrary to what the guys think here- it takes a while to complete proper development of a camera and ARRI tends to do things proper..
 
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