New, second camera? Arri Mini or another Red?

[Eirik Nicolai Heim]

Hi,

I have been owning a Red for 5-6 years now. Started with the Red Epic Mysterium, upgraded to Dragon and no traded into the Red Epic W.
It has been and is still a great camera. I have never had a big issue either when it comes to stability. (knock, knock).

My career has progressed these years and I have slowly moved on to bigger jobs; features, shorts and commercials. (DP or 1st AC with/without camera package and a lot of gimbal/drone work as well.)
I have been super lucky and got some founding plus of course own money to buy some lenses. Instead of buying one expensive series of 5-6 UP, Cookse S4 or Leica Summicron, I have opted for the anamorphic Atlas orion series and 6 of the new Cooke Panchro i/classics. (still expensive). They will arrive hopefully the next 2-4 months. It will be the first two PL lens series around my part of Norway: Tromsø - Northern Norway.

I have got some projects coming up that makes me able to invest in anther camera. Personally, I like to shoot both with my Red Epic W and the Alexa Mini. I think it is all about how good you and your crew are, rather than the Red Epic W or the Arri sensor. But, here in Norway, the Arri cameras are preferred and the rental houses send them out much more often. I have also lost quite a few jobs because having the "wrong" camera. Luckily often still got the job, but not been able to rent out my package.

For business purpose, and of course the Arri Mini is a superb camera, I am considering investing in the Mini. I would like to have two cameras for many reasons; rentals, two whole camera packages, back up, one camera on handheld/tripod and the other one ready on the gimbal, different customers, different shooting styles and needs.
I also think I will be able to get to use both cameras on my own stuff still if they are not the same brand. I do not think I will get to much trouble mathing them and just be a bit smart on what kind of shots the different cameras will be used for. Of course it would be great with two Reds for that, but I do not think it wise to invest in another Red when the Arris are more popular.

I am just arguing with myself at the moment in need some second opinion on this "problem".
Should I go for the Mini?
Almost all the high end jobs are done with Arri in my country.
Or should I go with another Red?

Cons? Pros?

Thanks,
Eirik Nicolai Heim

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

If a solid chunk of my income came from rental I would certainly invest into Arri. This said, we all know why many here on the forums own a Red. But the market doesn't reflect that. At least here in Europe. The only exception is the Red Monstro. But if you're able to return the investment of a Red Monstro in a meaningful time is at least questionable. Does depend on many factors. However, in most markets Arri is leading.

Hans

 

[Brandon Veen]

Ultimately it’s up to you what route you decide to go.
I think there’s a fair amount of people on here (although still very much a minority) who have both an Alexa and a Red of some flavor, and they could probably answer the best out of anybody.

Some theoretical benifits of getting another RED, if you were to get another Epic-W, would be:
- Really easy to match, like you said.
- If Hydrogen takes off, and you like the holographic aspect, you’d be able to shoot in 3D and convert to 4-View.
- Accessories would work on both cameras (although a lot would work on ARRI if it’s non-RED).
- Potentially Price Difference? (When factoring in 4:3 and ARRIRAW licenses)
- 4K/8K
- RED’s Upgrade Path

I think the biggest of those for me is the potential with Hydrogen for making holographic content. That to me seems like it could be something fantastic, but we still have to wait to see what it’s actually like, and from a business standpoint may not be practical as many of us hope. From a pure business standpoint, an Alexa Mini, especially if you can get a good deal on a used one, makes more sense.

Depending on your timeline though, it might be a good idea to watch and see how things go with the Alexa LF in your rental market in regard to Minis, if the rentability is a big factor in the choice for you.

Definitely pros and cons for both. Hopefully some of that helps you decide.

 

[Eirik Nicolai Heim]

Yeah, hopefully some with both also will give some inputs, but thanks for yours.

The main reason I guess comes down to that feels that Arri is excepted by every one around here, but when it comes to Red people are more sceptical and if they have both opportunities most of the times they choose Arri. Even if I am the only one around my parts of Norway, they fly in the Arri camera no matter what.

I agree about the reasons you are listing up Brandon. But I will still have one came with 4k/8k and upgrade path. I have ordered the Hydrogen, but I do not see myself as a big content maker.
Luckyly most of my accessories can be used on both cameras. I have an Arri rig already for the Red cam, and monitors, wireless follow focus, wireless link and so on will work perfectly.

 

[C. Burkhart]

Arri, for whatever reason, tends to hold it's investment longer. The advantage of the Mini is that it is small and nimble enough to do the lighter work. It also appears as a complement to the bigger more classical bodies and the new LF does not look it will have a complimentary mini version for quite some time. I think the choice would be clear for me.
By the way I love Norway and the spirit of the people. I lived in Oslo many years ago and I found a great degree of inventiveness and intelligence mixed with kindness from the folks I encountered, you might be on the edge of the world but are squarely centered in the modern stream of things. Even if things are darned expensive !

 

[Milano Questa]

Arri. I doubt you'll make a quick ROI on an extra Red camera, whereas owning both Red and Arri will give your much more flexibility in your offering. Like you mentioned yourself, Arri is favored pretty much everywhere and by everyone.

Arri just released their true 4K LF sensor, which isn't available for the Mini yet. They might release a Mini LF next year. I'd wait for that if i were you.

 

[Sergio Perez]

My 2 Cents:

If you are making your own productions and mainly doing TV Commercials, chroma keys and music videos, the versatility of Red is unbeatable. If you are doing Mainly narrative fiction and renting your gear for income, than the Mini might be a better solution.

If you're being hired because of you and not because of your gear, I would probably choose a camera that would make me evolve creatively. I wouldn't look at the Mini but to the new full frame Alexa, or the Red Weapon Monstro. Different looks, something you could get the grips with or offer extra compared to the competition.

I'm going Monstro myself, but I'm not renting out my gear!

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Arri just released their true 4K LF sensor...

Why did you put true in there? Its technically not a 4K camera. (Not even tier2?)
It has about the resolution of a Redone. But well Netflix accepted it so who cares to be true 4K?

The trend is SOOO big for Vistalike format I would definitely go for bigger sensor. There will be a mini with vista sized sensor as the push for it is so big and Arri goes where the money is.

In this realm Red could win back some market... Who knows. It depends of people like you. ;-)

 

[Eirik Nicolai Heim]

I am leaning towards Arri and at the same time keeping my Red as I think they will complement each other very well.

I have of course been looking at the monstro and the new LF, but I will not have any glass locally to take advantage of those cameras except stills glass.
I still love the look of S35 and I think I get more of two S35 series glass than maybe 3-4 lenses that fits new large format/vista vision sensors.

I will be the only one where I live in the country with a Red and now maybe an Arri Mini. And there are no other with lenses as well.

I do no think I will be able to compete with the bigger rental houses further south when it comes to productions going for Large formats; Arri LF, Monstro or Arri 65.
That is also one of the reasons why I am going for Atlas Orion and Cooke Speed Panchro i/Classics instead of Arri UP or the likes. Then I have to very nice camera packages and not directly competing with the bigger ones in Oslo that allready has Cooke S4, S5 and I guess S7 soon, Leica Summicon/lux and Thalia and so on.

With the Mini I will have to complete camera packages, and both will also fit my Movi Pro. They both have some advantages and different use that will complement each other. I can rent out one and still have another package to use my self.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

This could be the last year that sub-4K sensors will rent. So exploit that as much as you can. Get a really nice Mini for a good price and screw it for all it's worth. At the same time, maybe mine some cryptocurrencies on the side.

 

[Eirik Nicolai Heim]

Totally see that sub 4k "issue". But then again I will have my Red which also is a great camera. But then again I can not see for now, with the sensor Arri has, that they will make a camera that still is S35 but has greater resolution. The only glass I will have that covers something bigger is Canon L-series glass.
As I understand Arri has "maxed" the resolution on the sensor and the bigger sensor sices is the same sensor "melted" together for 3 or 2 times on the 65 and now the LF?

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Totally see that sub 4k "issue".

Erik, in a foreseeable future, Neflix aside, there will be no sub 4k issue in TV-land, commercial land, TV-movie land, even cinema land and most lower profile productions if it's an Arri. So in a European context, with a Mini, you will be able to cover 95% or more of all productions.

And please check the Mini's UHD up-res. Since the colour science is the best in the market (hard to argue against) the up-res looks great. Only in long shots with deep focus you may want more resolution for UHD. Never understood the Netflix policy in this regard. How many deep focus long shots are in a show? It's a decision by number counters, surely not visually triggered. For reference check out Deakin's Oscar winning masterpiece Blade Runner 2049 in a 4K cinema. Most shots are regular Alexa. Go figure.

And before I start unwanted a resolution vs colour fidelity discussion, yes resolution matters and Red's colour science is very good. But I'm not the market.

 

[John David Pope]

This could be the last year that sub-4K sensors will rent. So exploit that as much as you can. Get a really nice Mini for a good price and screw it for all it's worth. At the same time, maybe mine some cryptocurrencies on the side.

Obsolescence is not always as rapid as some predict. While the statement "could be the last year that sub-4K sensors will rent" was in the context of a particular market segment, I think we should be careful about writing off sub-4k and careful about writing off s35 sensor cameras, something I am also seeing done.

In 2019, rental houses such as VER will still be turning a buck renting out sub-4k cameras. There will still be much 2k production taking place in 2019 just as here in 2018 I am getting rentals for my 2/3" ENG camera for a major tv network that still shoots in 720p.

The predictions like "very soon everyone will be shooting in 8K and only 8K!" are a bit like the predictions that we'd all be commuting in flying cars by now. We get excited about new technology and as a result tend to over-predict rapidity of adoption and advancement. In the context of "high-end" production, yes, a camera that is not capable of anything greater than 4K risks being left behind in the near future.

 

[H Dewey]

Agreed there will be late adopters to 4k broadcast, but TV manufacturers are said to only manufacture 4k TVs starting soon. These people have to know the market ahead of time.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

There will still be much 2k production taking place in 2019 just as here in 2018 I am getting rentals for my 2/3" ENG camera for a major tv network that still shoots in 720p.

What camera is that, where can I get one, and who is your client? Kidding... ;-)

The predictions like "very soon everyone will be shooting in 8K and only 8K!" are a bit like the predictions that we'd all be commuting in flying cars by now. We get excited about new technology and as a result tend to over-predict rapidity of adoption and advancement. In the context of "high-end" production, yes, a camera that is not capable of anything greater than 4K risks being left behind in the near future.

In that case, people will stick with old Alexas as they are now cheap. No point to the 4K ones.

BTW I'm pro-S35, for photography as well as video/cinema.

 

[Phil Holland]

About broadcast and resolution (and frame rate and HDR as well).

November 2017. The ATSC 3.0 specs we're put in place. Much of the reason we haven't seen broadcast 4K is the ATSC 1.0 specs top out at 1080p.

ATSC 3.0 has support for UHD 4K, HDR, high frame rates, and even support for 8K through and extension.

I mention this because consumer grade televisions are shipping this year supoorting this new standard. Inexpensive televisions that people can grab easily. The goal is to have an appreciated market share within 2 years leading up to 2020 and beyond.

Outside of that, digital streaming already supports 4K and HDR. And you can find 8K even in the world of YouTube. 8K streaming begins at the very end of the year.

Theatrically, I've seen 4K and 8K screens incoming. Lots of focus on not using a projector, which makes sense in the realm of HDR.

The whole bar is moving right now and will continue to do so for a hot minute. And yes, people will be finishing out 720/1080p for a while. But that's not where the most interesting work is in the industry.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Lots of focus on not using a projector, which makes sense in the realm of HDR.

That's surprising. Projectors make a lot of sense as screens get larger. You can have 'mini IMAX' in your house with a projector, which makes it easier to have different aspect ratios. I live in a spacious home but even so, projectors make more sense than TVs. One reason is that I can move a projector from one room to the other fairly easily.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Investing such sums of money is not childs play. So one should think in terms of business. One should consider how many days the Arri goes out in a month and within how many days ie how quickly you can recover the cost. This seems favourable in your market. So it may be better to buy the Mini and get your rental income and make the camera productive from day one. For resolution, anyway you have a RED.

 

[L. Langer]

That's surprising. Projectors make a lot of sense as screens get larger. You can have 'mini IMAX' in your house with a projector, which makes it easier to have different aspect ratios. I live in a spacious home but even so, projectors make more sense than TVs. One reason is that I can move a projector from one room to the other fairly easily.

Once you've seen the new wall-type stuff from Sony, Samsung, and LG, you'll want to drop your projector at the nearest electronics recycling location. There simply is no competition from projectors. Even IMAX is building a prototype setup in the old IMAX style - like what you'd find in museums/educational institutions/whatnot - that will be a game-changer for their brand.

 

[Eirik Nicolai Heim]

Thanks for all the inputs yet again.
Feels like the "only" cons of the Mini is the resolution and for that I have the Red.

Picture wise I think I still like the Arri a bit more actually than my own Red.

But I think it all comes down to what is the smartest camera business wise for me, and it feels like the Arri Mini is a winner there. I get the resolution "problem", but at the same time I am not sure that people will move from S35 sensors any time soon in my area, and as I understand, Arri will not have a S35 camera with 4k or more resolution any time soon. The LF is much more expensive, much bigger and I would need bigger and new glass. It will not fit into a Movi Pro and so on.

Feels like as long as Arri have the upper hand on rentals and for my jobs, and no S35 4k or more cameras, the Arri mini is the way to go. I am not dissing Red, I have been very satisfied with it. It has had the upper hand on resolution for a long time now, but still "all" wants the Arri Mini.