New MacPro predictions? Hopes? Fears?

[Mike Halper]

You are correct in that you will need at least one mac..but if you use the apps out there like resolve, You can have a mac mini in the network and then rely on a much faster newer tech Windows/linux machine to do all of the heavy lifting. So it is correct that you would need at least one mac... but not a mac that needs to be CURRENT or CUTTING EDGE. It really takes the pressure off in my opinion and frees you up to really have a robust setup. Obviously if you don't use resolve or other similar programs then you are f*****. I use resolve and have no issues here...but i will say that I migrated to resolve for this kind of flexibility. It has been wonderful.


When it takes 4 or more to release something new or fresh (and then it still doesn't hit the pro mark) and thats what you rely on for your business...that in my opinion is a bigger problem than prores and should require "workarounds" to get what you need. Computer tech moves too fast for that. Camera tech moves too fast for that.

A Mac Mini isn't going to cut it when you need a good GPU in a fast computer to render a full feature at 4K full debayer with noise reduction, especially if the original source is 5K, 6K, or 8K. You'd still need a pretty powerful Mac to do what you're saying as the Mac is actually what's doing the heavy lifting in Resolve in those situations.

There really hasn't been much advancements in the computer tech in the last 4 years. Intel's newer Xeon CPU's are only marginally faster than what was available in 2013. Moore's Law is dead. If I spent thousands of dollars on a new Mac Pro in 2013 I wouldn't be looking to upgrade for a while, until it was absolutely necessary. Really the only upgrade that's been sorely needed is the GPU, and I do think that's where Apple has missed the boat. But AMD's new generation of GPUs are just now coming out. I think we'll still see a Mac Pro update in the next few months now that there are new GPU's from AMD and Thunderbolt 3 with USB-C. There have been indications of a newer MacPro ID in MacOS. Perhaps the reason is that Apple realized they do need to offer PCIE slots so the GPU could be more easily changed. That would be a good explanation for the delay on even newer GPUs.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Is there anyway on a Mac to have a networked GPU resource, in that the mini is givenntje task but farms out GPU operations to another computer (like your wundiws machine issuing the initial request totje mini. Its sounds absurdly inefficient run aroand, but makes the point that can be demonstrated to companies publucally, about the level the hardware and software are at).

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Well, I think you're making a big deal about nothing (to me).

Well thank you for your assessment.

It's really not that difficult to find a way around using adapters. And I've used adapters before without issues. The only reason I could see there being an issue is if you're moving the components around while they're on, but then you probably shouldn't be doing that in the first place.

Okay, those are the issues you see.

Anyway, it sounds like the new MBP isn't the computer for you.

No sadly it isn't.
And sadly it isn't for many others as well.

Before : "It just works". "Think different"
Now: " It works IF you do only this and that way exactly and except when it doesn't." . "Think as we say. Comply".

If the world decides to adapt to the pink unicorn tale from the spaceship reality bubble so I don't have to bring 4 adapters everywhere for a professional mobile tool which should make my life easier, I'll reconsider.

 

[Antony Newman]

And so I was thinking … if we started with the task of the Data, and Data processing requirements, what sort of Laptop would we be sufficient to edit in an FCP-X like timeline?

+) Input 300MB/s : 8K UHD R3D
+) Edit window : I believe a 2000 x 1000 pixel image at 24 fps would be sufficient

REDs R3D file format has embedded within it 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8 the original size.

If Reading data from an SSD is performed by hardware (using Direct Memory Access), then this would NOT use the Laptop CPU (or GPU).

+) CPU Requirement : Decrypt, Decompresss & Debayer : 2K stream @ 24 Hz
Would 3 cores of a Quad Core Xeon be sufficient for a 2K?
 I would guess the answer is Yes.

Next - GPU needs. How much processing per individual pixel do you think we would need?
100 calculations perhaps .. per pixel? Would that be enough?
What about 1000? Do we think that a professional system would need enough GPU horsepower to perform 1000 Maths operations on each individual pixel for each individual frame?

+) Lets see Apple has included in the top end 15” Mac Book Pro.
+) Mobile Polaris GPU : 1.86 TFLOPS = 1,860 GFLOPS = 1,860,000 MFLOPs = 1,860,000, 000,000 Floating Point operations a second.
+) Number of pixels in one second = 1920 x 1080 x 24 bfs = 49,766,400 pixels to process each second.
+) 1,860,000, 000,000 FLOPS / 49,766,400 pixels = 37,374 FLOPS / Pixel.

So perhaps the question should be .. is our Software ‘Professionally’ written?
Do we think that software that can’t create a real time image with > 30,000 maths operations per pixel … per frame is making full use of the system?

For comparison : The Canon 5D2 Single Core microprocessor running on a ARM946E-S 200Mhz was manipulating the underlying 1.87K image data at 24fps.

And so if 200MHz was enough to manipulate a ~2K image (Real time zoom, Zebra, Overlay, & LUT)
Would a modern day laptop with a GPU that can process 9,300 TIMES more computations per pixel be enough to edit 2K?

What about a spare 3 GHZ XEON core on top? (15 x CPU performance of the ARM core).

.. Anyhow. I guess my view is that Even if Apple DID throw in the Top of the line Mobile Nvidia GPU in the laptop, and 32GB RAM … they might Double the horsepower (and half the battery time / and run the system a fair bit warmer or louder) …. BUT … what on earth is going on the land of Software design?

AJ

 

[jake blackstone]

Simple answer to that is no, there is no such way and I think that status will not change any time soon. Sure a few programs let you network render or jump from one platform to the other but it's very rare that it would be done simply.

Resolve 12.5 offers Remote Render option now- grade on Windows and send the render to Resolve on Linux or Mac for Prores delivery...

 

[jake blackstone]

You are correct in that you will need at least one mac..but if you use the apps out there like resolve, You can have a mac mini in the network and then rely on a much faster newer tech Windows/linux machine to do all of the heavy lifting.

If you're using Resolve on Linux, like you'd mentioned, you don't need a Mac for rendering Prores...

 

[M.Halsell]

I'm clearly in the minority that feels that every product in the Apple lineup has some merit in a professional workflow, even the lowly macMini. Good riddance with I/O slots on the mac. They were glitchy even way back in the Nubus days, and the cost/benefit made for Uber expensive peripherals. Not to mention limited offerings. Either Apple didn't play nicely with third party vendors, or markshare was never big enough slice. Steve Jobs never liked the enterprise market, procurement and expectations were too fiddly. My standing opinion was Apple felt compelled to have something in that space when viewed themselves as a computer company. Apple has since seen the light and revisioned themselves as a personal device company.

Apple computers operate most software at an acceptable level, even power users. The clear exception for most will be Resolve. And smartly Blackmagic offers a Linux /Windows version for those that need to jack up the volume.

I died a slow death when SGI lost it sustainability. Took me a whike, but I'm all better now. The stuff that regular plain vanilla boxes can do is unbelievable. A RED 8K signal sitting on a timeline, on a MBP sitting on my lap, with a Foster's Lager in hand on my train commute home. Life is good.

" Be wary of giving a man free bread, because he'll want butter."

 

[Nicholas Croft]

I'm going to really stick it to Apple and only buy two of their new Mac Book Pro's! ;-)

 

[Bob Gundu]

Still hope for 32GB next time around.
http://www.macrumors.com/2016/10/31/macbooks-2017-price-cuts-32gb-ram/

 

[Tim Bonython]

What they still make Fosters in the BIG SMOKE?

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Still hope for 32GB next time around.
http://www.macrumors.com/2016/10/31/macbooks-2017-price-cuts-32gb-ram/

Yeah, my 2012mbp is still pretty quick. I generally don't cut or grade full res remotely, so I think I will stick it out another round for the next update. MacPro however? I really wish they gave us an idea with what's going on there. I have the loaded 2012 tower that I might be able to squeeze another year out of as well...but the Apple power workstation future doesn't look promising...

 

[Jason Osterday]

http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-sys...smlink_US_launch&utm_campaign=razer_blade_pro

For anyone interested in jumping ship. Here ya go. Checks off a lot of boxes.

Also for 64GB of RAM:
http://www.aorus.com/Product/Features/X7 DT v6

 

[Mike Halper]

http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-sys...smlink_US_launch&utm_campaign=razer_blade_pro

For anyone interested in jumping ship. Here ya go. Checks off a lot of boxes.

Also for 64GB of RAM:
http://www.aorus.com/Product/Features/X7 DT v6

1. You can't actually order it... yet. It just says "Notify Me" and it's been like that for a long time.

2. User reviews for the current model are not good: https://www.amazon.com/Razer-Blade-Gaming-Laptop-512GB/dp/B00FZHCW0O

3. Barefeats points out some issues and negatives vs the new MacBook Pro. http://barefeats.com/rmbp2016.html There's only one Thunderbolt 3/USB-C port. No USB 3.1 gen 2. Thunderbolt and USB can't seem to achieve as high bandwidth as they are supposed to. No DCI P3 color gamut. Internal storage on MacBook Pro will be faster than Razer Blade Pro.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side...

 

[Marc Wielage]

ADK appears to make a variety of laptops specifically for post-production, including some they're pitching as desktop replacements:

https://www.adkproaudio.com/music-production-laptops

Some include top-of-the-line NVidia GPUs and Thunderbolt 3, and they start at around $3000 for a fairly hefty 17" model. These are among the very few Windows laptops I've seen that look like (if I interpret the specs correctly) they could run 4K Raw through Resolve.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

https://www.adkproaudio.com/adk-extreme-ws-daw

 

[Jason Osterday]

1. You can't actually order it... yet. It just says "Notify Me" and it's been like that for a long time.

2. User reviews for the current model are not good: https://www.amazon.com/Razer-Blade-Gaming-Laptop-512GB/dp/B00FZHCW0O

3. Barefeats points out some issues and negatives vs the new MacBook Pro. http://barefeats.com/rmbp2016.html There's only one Thunderbolt 3/USB-C port. No USB 3.1 gen 2. Thunderbolt and USB can't seem to achieve as high bandwidth as they are supposed to. No DCI P3 color gamut. Internal storage on MacBook Pro will be faster than Razer Blade Pro.

The grass isn't always greener on the other side...

The Pro 17" was announced on Oct 20th. I believe orders are shipping mid-late Nov. Similar to the Macbook. The user reviews are a little spotty since they cover a large amount of models and variations dating back to 2013. They are a good baseline for the support and overall potential build quality going into the "Pro" though.

You're correct, there's only one TB3 port. USB 3.1 is supported there though. The question will be how these "desktop" laptops divvy up their PCIe Lanes. Considering the Razer comes stock with a PCIe SSD RAID arrangement, that means the M2 slots are using up lanes and we aren't sure if they'll be Samsung 950/960 or some other variant. Either way, if they're receiving proper lane management, then it's likely they'll actually be faster than what is in the MBP. We only have 16 PCIe Lanes to work with on these 4 Core CPU's.

We aren't sure about DCI P3 spec but it's likely a no, and I doubt it'll match the MBP's 500 nits. It does cover 100% Adobe RGB though.

ADK seems to have a good deal going with their desktop CPU driven laptops. I built out a 6700K, GTX 1080, 64TB, 512GB SSD, 17.3" 4K for $4K on the nose.
Regardless, I'm still on the MBP train with the Bizon Box 3 announcement. I keep stressing to people how clutch it is to have 4 TB3 ports. I guess you can daisy-chain but I wouldn't be surprised if the single TB3 port on any of these Windows machines is operating at sub 40Gb/s speeds.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Does anybody do their own custom desktop motherboards with extra features, such as desktop gpus etc? In the old days companies used to roll their own boards and cards, instead of using slightly modified off the shelf reference designs.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Does anybody do their own custom desktop motherboards with extra features, such as desktop gpus etc? In the old days companies used to roll their own boards and cards, instead of using slightly modified off the shelf reference designs.

Very few... When it comes to desktop or workstation hardware that's a firm "no" unless you're talking about Apple. Recently the only computer on the market that really falls into the custom hardware category, or something that isn't a minimally-altered reference delight, is the Mac Pro [trashcan]. Most PC notebook companies seem to be using ref designs, even Apple to some degree. And when they do really customize, they tend to milk that design for several cycles. This latest MBP is minimally different than the previous models all the way back to the first MBP retina in 2012. I think the latest in their customized designs is the MacBook.

Some of the "mobile workstation" laptops are more customized at times, but they seem to adapt a lot of the ref designs out there for blades or for notebooks and shift and adjust components to fit different CPUs or chipsets. The real trick on these systems is to manage power consumption and thermal aspects. Something most of them struggle with. Pretty much every such laptop like this I have owned has melted itself under real use. I tend to shy away from them, but every now and then I see one with good reviews and I'll take the plunge. And then it melts itself after an hour or two of intense work.

 

[L. Langer]

Does anybody do their own custom desktop motherboards with extra features, such as desktop gpus etc? In the old days companies used to roll their own boards and cards, instead of using slightly modified off the shelf reference designs.

Yes, but unless you're buying in large numbers and willing to spend at least $1 million before you get the first board, your business is worthless to them. Otherwise, you are limited to a handful of companies that do custom manufacturing for embedded/industrial systems, which wouldn't be as good as mainstream computing designs.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The Pro 17" was announced on Oct 20th. I believe orders are shipping mid-late Nov. Similar to the Macbook. The user reviews are a little spotty since they cover a large amount of models and variations dating back to 2013. They are a good baseline for the support and overall potential build quality going into the "Pro" though.

The current Razer Blade, not the new pro model, is a piece of shit. Hopefully Razer tries a lot harder with this one. But they're cramming a lot of stuff into that thin form factor and using a lot of off-the-shelf tech as well. I have serious doubts about the Blade Pro being able to power through intense day-long work scenarios without seriously throttling itself or spontaneously combusting.

You're correct, there's only one TB3 port. USB 3.1 is supported there though. The question will be how these "desktop" laptops divvy up their PCIe Lanes. Considering the Razer comes stock with a PCIe SSD RAID arrangement, that means the M2 slots are using up lanes and we aren't sure if they'll be Samsung 950/960 or some other variant. Either way, if they're receiving proper lane management, then it's likely they'll actually be faster than what is in the MBP. We only have 16 PCIe Lanes to work with on these 4 Core CPU's.

We just won't know until the real reviews and benchmarks come in. Their dual M.2 SSD arrangement could be using a separate PCIe v2 X4 connection for each SSD, or they could be sharing a single X4 connection. I'd really like to see a couple more TB3 ports on this system. There's a lot of power under the hood and the I/O is pretty crippled compared to some of the other less powerful notebooks on the market now. Then again, professional media workflows are not what this system is designed for. It's a mobile gaming rig, first and foremost.

We aren't sure about DCI P3 spec but it's likely a no, and I doubt it'll match the MBP's 500 nits. It does cover 100% Adobe RGB though.

Hopefully it's a lot better than the screen on the current Blade. No, it's not going to rival what Apple is using (other than being bigger and having more pixels), nor what Microsoft is now using on the SurfaceBook i7.

ADK seems to have a good deal going with their desktop CPU driven laptops. I built out a 6700K, GTX 1080, 64TB, 512GB SSD, 17.3" 4K for $4K on the nose.

Have not tried any of the ADK systems, but they're not their own systems, these are customizable OEM notebook units being offered by several vendors out there. Not a bad deal for what we can cram into a notebook form factor, but also their pricing seems to be in line with most others. One thing to consider when comparing mobile workstation type systems with true mobile platform notebooks is the pricing will never line up. Mobile class hardware is generally more expensive and less powerful. While many people are upset with Apple's pricing of the new MBP, it's right in line with the rest of the industry right now. Prices are up pretty much everywhere.

Regardless, I'm still on the MBP train with the Bizon Box 3 announcement. I keep stressing to people how clutch it is to have 4 TB3 ports. I guess you can daisy-chain but I wouldn't be surprised if the single TB3 port on any of these Windows machines is operating at sub 40Gb/s speeds.

The 4 x TB3 ports on the new MBP is awesome. I think a lot of us are in this situation. Letting most of my frustrations subside and reflecting back on the announcement and what the new MBP is actually good at, I think most will be very pleased with it. There are going to be some growing pains for the coming months until USB-C is more ubiquitous. No different than when Apple dropped the FW800 port or the ExpressCard slot and we saw the equivalent of mass hysteria amongst all the Apple user base. Having lugged around some pretty big notebooks over the past 20 years, I can truly appreciate the attention to thin and light. OTOH, Apple usually takes such things a little too far. I would have gladly kept the existing 2012 thru 2015 MBP form factor if that afforded me 32GB RAM and a beefier GPU.