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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New Fast Prime Set WOW

cwsonderoptics_01.jpg


CW-Sonderoptic>>>

Weller-Feinwerktechnik>>>

ViaOptic>>>
 
Georg said:
CW Sonderoptic is a 100% subsidiary of the owner of Leica Camera AG. It propably has something to do with the entirely different distribution process (it wouldn't make much sense to sell cine-lenses in Leica shops).

But these lenses are manufactured by Leica Camera AG in Solms, they have 160 years experience (including their own >3 year training for mechanics, optics and mechatronics - msot production people in Germany are not trained-on-the-job, they're specalists) in optical design & manufacturing and are capable of very complex designs (Zeiss is the other one) - this knowledge has never been outsourced (even Leitz Canada - today ELCAN - which designed and manufactured the Panavision Primos - never made these designs) and was never achieved by many optical companies (that includes most optical brands trying to sell "revolutionary" cine-lenses for RED-users).

Dr. Kaufmann insources former Leitz-divisions that were outsourced over the past decades and relocates them at the Leitz Park in Wetzlar - Leica Camera AG is going to follow and Weller-Feinwerktechnik (they manufacture the mechanical parts) is alreay operating there. Viaoptic is only manufacturing plastic-mold-lenses. Delicate technology for many applications, but not for high-performance-lenses, yet.
Click to expand...

George

You are getting a bit warmer :-)

But, keep in mind that Elcan did not design the Primos and that Leica Camera AG doesn't make cine lenses, its not just a difference in distribution.

Feb 15th is coming sooner than you think.



In seclusion and preparation high above Maui... in sublime Kula
 
Michael Bravin said:
George

You are getting a bit warmer :-)

But, keep in mind that Elcan did not design the Primos and that Leica Camera AG doesn't make cine lenses, its not just a difference in distribution.

Feb 15th is coming sooner than you think.



In seclusion and preparation high above Maui... in sublime Kula
Click to expand...


Some more facts that you could maybe put some of them together and try to draw your own conclusion:



About ELCAN and Panavision relations:

"To push the envelope of cinematographical excellence to the next level,
Panavision developed a “wish list” set of specifications for a revolutionary new lens system in 1983.
Panavision’s optical supplier at the time found the specifications and tolerances to be too tight and refused to even try.
Panavision then approached ELCAN with their vision for a new standard of visual experience through their new designs....

...Panavision’s challenge to ELCAN Optical Technologies was to develop a series of lenses with exceptional sharpness & contrast,
even field illumination and negligible veiling glare, ghosting or distortion and importantly, that were color-matched across the entire series.

ELCAN started their solution by selecting a new high-performance glass material that was risky, but offered huge advantages.
This new glass was critical for the novel optical design that Panavision wanted to try.
ELCAN then utilized a new multi-coating technique to control the color aberrations
as well as increase the total transmitted light through the lenses.
This combination of design and manufacturing innovation made it possible to shoot multiple angles and
shots with multiple lenses without the need for filters or intensive post-production editing.

The end result was a new family of optics specifically for motion picture cinematography,
the Panavision Primo-L lenses, which are still the sharpest lenses available."

Academy Award Winning Lenses founded on Optics by ELCAN>>>



Also about Leica AG and various business relationships with related parties:


"In the opinion of the management of Leica Camera AG, these business relationships are
on an arm’s length basis:

General supply agreement with and rental payment guarantee for VIAOPTIC GmbH

Under the general supply agreement of September 1, 2003 with VIAOPTIC GmbH, a
company 86%-owned by the Company’s majority shareholder, ACM Projektentwicklung
GmbH, the Company is obliged to take delivery of injection moulded plastic parts.
In the period from April 1, 2008 until March 31, 2009, VIAOPTIC GmbH has delivered
goods and rendered services in a volume of € 167,000 (previous year: € 96,000). As at
the record date, there are accounts payable in the amount of € 41,000 (previous year:
€ 7,000). In the period from April 1, 2008 until March 31, 2009, Leica Camera AG has
delivered goods and rendered services in a volume of € 57,000 (previous year: € 13,000).
As at the record date, there are accounts receivable in the amount of € 1,000 (previous
year: € 6,000).
To secure rents receivable from VIAOPTIC GmbH, Leica Camera AG has assumed a
directly enforceable guarantee.

As a shareholder of VIAOPTIC GmbH, ACM Projektentwicklung
GmbH has undertaken vis-à-vis Leica Camera AG to reimburse any drawing on
the guarantee.

Supply agreement with Uwe Weller Feinwerktechnik GmbH

The Company has entered in a supply agreement dated November 7, 1996 with Uwe
Weller Feinwerktechnik GmbH, a company 74.9%-owned by the Company’s majority
shareholder, ACM Projektentwicklung GmbH. Uwe Weller Feinwerktechnik GmbH supplies
the Company with workpieces.
In the period from April 1, 2008 until March 31, 2009, Uwe Weller Feinwerktechnik
GmbH has delivered goods and rendered services in a volume of € 1,860,000 (previous
year: € 2,627,000). As at the record date, there are accounts payable in the amount of
€ 250,000 (previous year: € 159,000). In the period from April 1, 2008 until March 31,
2009, Leica Camera AG has delivered goods and rendered services in a volume of € 500
(previous year: € 1,000). As at the record date, there are no accounts receivable (previous
year: less than € 1,000).

Business relationship with ACM Projektentwicklung GmbH

In the period from April 1, 2008 until March 31, 2009, ACM Projektentwicklung GmbH
has delivered goods and rendered services in a volume of € 264,000. As at the record
date, there are accounts payable in the amount of € 202,000. The existing agreement
has been annulled effective April 1, 2009.
Additionally, in the period from April 1, 2008 until March 31, 2009, Leica Camera AG has
delivered goods and rendered services to ACM Projektentwicklung GmbH in a volume
of € 22,000. As at the record date, there are accounts receivable from ACM Projektentwicklung
GmbH in the amount of € 16,000.

Business relationship with Optic Beteiligungs GmbH

With Optic Beteiligungs GmbH, a company 100.0%-owned by the Company’s majority
shareholder, ACM Projektentwicklung GmbH, the Company had a consultancy contract
in the fiscal year under review.


Business relationship with CW Sonderoptic GmbH

With CW Sonderoptic GmbH, a company 100.0%-owned by the Company’s majority
shareholder, ACM Projektentwicklung GmbH, the Company has had a cooperation
agreement since April 25, 2008.
In the period from April 1, 2008 until March 31, 2009, CW Sonderoptic GmbH has deliv -
ered no goods and rendered no services to Leica Camera AG. As at the record date, there
are no accounts payable. In the period from April 1, 2008 until March 31, 2009, Leica
Camera AG has delivered goods and rendered services in a volume of € 609,000. As at
the record date, there are accounts receivable in the amount of € 114,000."

Leica Camera Annual Report Fiscal Year 2008/2009.pdf (pages 56-57)>>>

Lens optical design:

Kölsch + Schröder

"Our service is the layout, design and realization of optical systems.
The development is done in close cooperation with the customer
in order to achieve tailor-made solutions
that are optimum with regard to technical results as well as cost.

Through cooperation with experienced partners we are also in the position to offer mechanical design and production of the developed lenses.

Since early 2008 we dispose of measuring equipment so we can do the quality control of manufactured lenses in house."

LINK>>>


Lens sales and distribution:

"Band Pro announces new set of 4K “Mystery Lenses”

Burbank California, December 17, 2009--At the One World on HD event,
Band Pro Film and Digital introduces a groundbreaking new brand of ultra-high
performance PL mount prime lenses, designed to deliver optical performance for true 4K imaging and beyond.

After three years of design and prototyping, the new T1.4 lenses, still code named “Mystery Primes” within Band Pro,
are fully developed and 3 focal lengths are due to be demonstrated on the F35 camera at the event.
The series of prime lenses, available exclusively worldwide from Band Pro, will eventually total 15 different focal lengths,
ranging from 12mm to 150mm. Delivery of production models of eight of the lenses will begin in early summer of 2010.

“A unique use of aspheric technology and cutting-edge mechanical cine lens design provides the “Mystery Primes” with unmatched
evenness of illumination across the entire 35mm frame and into the corners with no discernable breathing” said Michael Bravin, Chief Technologist of Band Pro.
“Suppression of color fringing into the farthest corners of the frame is superior to any lenses I have ever seen.”

The entire set of “Mystery Primes” features unified distance focus scales, common size and location of focus and iris rings,
and a 95mm threaded (for filters) lens front--all allowing quick interchange of lenses in a busy production environment.
Another unique feature is an integrated threaded net ring in the rear of the PL mount. Designed to be light in weight yet rugged on the set,
the mount and lens barrel are manufactured using lightweight high strength titanium materials. For example, a typical Mystery Prime weighs just 3 lbs (1.4kg).

The core set of “Mystery Primes”, which will start delivering by June 2010, includes 16mm, 18mm, 21mm, 25mm, 35mm, 40mm, 50mm, 65mm, 75mm, and 100mm lenses.
Additional focal lengths will be delivered in a second phase.

The first 25 sets of lenses will be delivered to Otto Nemenz International. Their experienced team provided invaluable user input from the beginning of the design process."

Band Pro announces new set of 4K “Mystery Lenses”>>>

The first customer:

Otto Nemenz International>>>
 
Dr. Kaufmann owns the former mechanical department of Leitz, today Weller Feinwerktechnik who also manufactured the only titanium lens barrels I know of (M7 anniversary).
Dr. Kaufmann also owns Leica Camera, "accidentally" the only company which is capable of manufacturing sophisticated aspherical designs of this kind in this area. CW Sonderoptic is also registered to a Leica-employee. There are smaller development studios (like the one from Mr. Kölsch) who might be involved into this lens system - but it's hardly imaginable that Leica Camera doesn't play a major role in it.

ELCAN did not produce/design the Primos?

That's your very own statement:
"Panavision developed a “wish list” set of specifications for a revolutionary new lens system in 1983.
Panavision’s optical supplier at the time found the specifications and tolerances to be too tight and refused to even try.
Panavision then approached ELCAN with their vision for a new standard of visual experience through their new designs...."

And that's what was told me as well. Panavision manufactures barrels/mechanics and specifies the optical systems according to cinematographers needs - but they don't design or manufacture the lens elements themself. ELCAN does, and they were still a 100% subsidiary when they developed the Primos so they should have full access (although no patents) to the Primo-knowledge.
 
Georg said:
Dr. Kaufmann owns the former mechanical department of Leitz, today Weller Feinwerktechnik who also manufactured the only titanium lens barrels I know of (M7 anniversary).
Dr. Kaufmann also owns Leica Camera, "accidentally" the only company which is capable of manufacturing sophisticated aspherical designs of this kind in this area. CW Sonderoptic is also registered to a Leica-employee. There are smaller development studios (like the one from Mr. Kölsch) who might be involved into this lens system - but it's hardly imaginable that Leica Camera doesn't play a major role in it.

ELCAN did not produce/design the Primos?

That's your very own statement:
"Panavision developed a “wish list” set of specifications for a revolutionary new lens system in 1983.
Panavision’s optical supplier at the time found the specifications and tolerances to be too tight and refused to even try.
Panavision then approached ELCAN with their vision for a new standard of visual experience through their new designs...."

And that's what was told me as well. Panavision manufactures barrels/mechanics and specifies the optical systems according to cinematographers needs - but they don't design or manufacture the lens elements themself. ELCAN does, and they were still a 100% subsidiary when they developed the Primos so they should have full access (although no patents) to the Primo-knowledge.
Click to expand...

Lens designer is the person or people who design the lenses. The grinding and manufacturing of mechanical parts is not the designing.

That's really all I can say. Since I already know who the lens designer(s) are and who the manufacturer(s) are of the glass and mechanics and what designs were used and what core competencies were brought to bear, I'd suggest you wait till February 15th when ALL will be publicly revealed.

Dr Kaufman has made no secret of his "involvement", we (Band Pro) had him at the official announcement of the "lens who's name will not be revealed till Feb 15th" and he spoke at the announcement, which is on You Tube :-)

All that said... you are quite warm, but not as hot as you believe:-)
 
Georg said:
Dr. Kaufmann owns the former mechanical department of Leitz, today Weller Feinwerktechnik who also manufactured the only titanium lens barrels I know of (M7 anniversary).
Dr. Kaufmann also owns Leica Camera, "accidentally" the only company which is capable of manufacturing sophisticated aspherical designs of this kind in this area. CW Sonderoptic is also registered to a Leica-employee. There are smaller development studios (like the one from Mr. Kölsch) who might be involved into this lens system - but it's hardly imaginable that Leica Camera doesn't play a major role in it.

ELCAN did not produce/design the Primos?

That's your very own statement:
"Panavision developed a “wish list” set of specifications for a revolutionary new lens system in 1983.
Panavision’s optical supplier at the time found the specifications and tolerances to be too tight and refused to even try.
Panavision then approached ELCAN with their vision for a new standard of visual experience through their new designs...."

And that's what was told me as well. Panavision manufactures barrels/mechanics and specifies the optical systems according to cinematographers needs - but they don't design or manufacture the lens elements themself. ELCAN does, and they were still a 100% subsidiary when they developed the Primos so they should have full access (although no patents) to the Primo-knowledge.
Click to expand...

I never made any of the statements about ELCAN or Panavision or Leitz or Leica except to say that Leica Camera AG does not manufacture cine lenses.
I stand by that statement.

Lens designer is the person or people who design the lenses. The grinding and manufacturing of mechanical parts is not the designing.

That's really all I can say. Since I already know who the lens designer(s) are and who the manufacturer(s) are of the glass and mechanics and what designs were used and what core competencies were brought to bear, I'd suggest you wait till February 15th when ALL will be publicly revealed.

Dr Kaufman has made no secret of his "involvement", we (well Band Pro) had him at the official announcement of the "lens who's name will not be revealed till Feb 15th" and he spoke at the announcement, which is on You Tube :-)

All that said... you are quite warm, but not as hot as you believe:-)



Still in seclusion and in preperation high above Maui... in sublime Kula
 
“These lenses have cost $10m to develop and are designed to fit the needs of future digital cameras. They can scale up to the demands of next generation digital cameras and are half the size and weight of any existing lenses on the market since they use lightweight high strength titanium materials.”

http://leicarumors.com/2010/01/07/leica-4k-cine-lenses-almost-official.aspx/
Click to expand...

Does this ability to "scale up" mean Full Frame 35mm, aka Vista Vision?
 
@Tom L
As far as I understood it, these are "Super35"-lenses with an image circle of about 30mm (for 18x24mm) in diameter. A 12mm F1.4 for 24x36mm seems very unlikely...

@Michael Bravin
I'm sorry I mixed your statement with the one from Sanjin Jukic

But I'm not a big fan of the "stupid-production"-theory pushed by economics and marketing: "It doesn't matter how (and by whome) it's manufactured, only the brand matters"... This behaviour is supported this way.

According to the statement from Sanjin Jukic, ELCAN did design the optical system of the Primos. A close relationship of development and production is crucial, especially in this segment. Leica Camera does develop and manufactures state-of-the-art lenses and when they manufacture the lens-elements, they would automatically get the full know-how implemented into the lens design.
I'm eager to see the official statement, but to me it just looks like another example of veiling background facts - for whatever reason.
 
fire away

fire away

Hi Guys & Gals,

For a variety of reasons, I will be relieving Michael on this thread, and fending off your questions and misdirecting you from now on :) If there is anything new I will let you know, probably by making a new thread and also leaving a pointer on this one.

Kind of love the detective work going on here though.

Randy Wedick
Technical Consultant
Band Pro Film & Digital
 
Michael Panfeld said:
That has been asked and answered by Michael: NO
Click to expand...

Then can anyone tell me what "They can scale up to the demands of next generation digital cameras," means?

Because the next generation of digital cinema cameras, from my point of view, are full-frame 35mm Epics made by Red. Not to mention the extreme popularity of Canon and other DSLR FF35 HD cameras.
 
Tom L said:
Then can anyone tell me what "They can scale up to the demands of next generation digital cameras," means?

Because the next generation of digital cinema cameras, from my point of view, are full-frame 35mm Epics made by Red. Not to mention the extreme popularity of Canon and other DSLR FF35 HD cameras.
Click to expand...

Tom,

I know that you are pretty excited with use of Canon 5DMK2 that has FF35mm sensor size but must tell you that for the first FF35mm digital cinema camera (Epic,...) we must wait a couple of years.

Why?

There so many issues with the hardware and workflow that need more time to be solved properly.

You just have to search this forum and you'll find many of that info....

But fortunately we have M-X 4.5K that is coming up soon and that's enough for a while...

Leica's Mystery Primes perfectly fit to M-X 4.5K and even handheld and stedicam shots with R1MX are going to be much easy than before with many other cine prime sets...

Also R1MX is going pretty easy to beat the new Arri Alev III Electronic Viefinder camera when it comes after NAB 2010.
 
Sanjin, my friend, make no mistake, I am very excited about MX 4.5K. :sifone:

But the Band Pro marketing says these lenses "can scale up to the demands of next generation digital cameras."

Well, S35 is "current generation." For me, "next generation" means FF35.
 
Tom, my dear friend,

I know what you mean but also must consider that FF35mm lens design has its own optical and physical limits.

You just have to see what is currently possible and available in terms of lens speed from many different lens vendors like a Canon, Nikon,

Zeiss, Leica M series, Sigma, Tokina, Tamron,...

With S35mm image circle is much smaller than FF35 and it is easy with new aspherical elements to reach speed across entire set.

So you could now try to re-think that notion that FF35mm are only new digital cine cameras.

Maybe that Monstro sensor design if it could reach noiseless image @ ISO 12800 would work for available light with aperture wide open @ T 2.8

but we have to wait for that a couple of years to come...

4072662489_14ba9f7c6d_b.jpg
 
Damn Mitch, sorta gansta.

Hey Randy, welcome to Red User group gang beat down.
I guess your officially jumped in.
 
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