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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New Epic X Price Prediction

Not me, I'm totally cool with Scarlets. Why the death wish? Less Rentals I assume?

Tim Whitcomb said:
many of us Epic owners feel SCREWED BY SCARLET in the first place and cant wait for its ignoble death.
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Red one is 25k, it got the MX sensor and it has been around long enough to pay for it's R&D. Epic has some more powerfull bit's in there but is also more manufactured at red and time has moved on and components are probably getting cheaper. So my guess is right above 25k for brain only.

Then the question is what they do with Red one pricing...
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
Well Gavin many of us Epic owners feel SCREWED BY SCARLET in the first place and cant wait for its ignoble death.
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Epic customers have absolutely nothing to complain about. Every single RED shoot I've been on has been with an Epic. If they can afford an Epic, they'll go with the Epic. I've never seen a production that could afford an epic decide to skimp and go with the Scarlet. I don't think Scarlet is eating into Epic's rentals at all. And your Epic would have probably cost another $10k+ if it wasn't for Scarlets eating the cost of the Epic boards. Imagine a world without Scarlet... and you have 4 epic boards that have to be thrown away and added to the price of each epic. No way would Epic have been $30k if that had happened. If you had the money, the Epic has always been the WAY better deal. Cheaper upgrade, 500% better bang for the buck compared to Scarlet. Scarlet just competes with F3 rentals.

Also tons of Epic customers got nearly $20,000 off their purchase with RED One Trade ins. They paid as much as a Scarlet after getting plenty of time to pay-off a RED One. And they knew Scarlet was coming. When RED Announced Epic they simultaneously announced Scarlet. Scarlet S35 was supposed to have 30p 5k (w/ 72fps burst) @ $7k. We ended up with 12p 5k @ $10k. That's a 33% price increase and a 50%-83% feature reduction. The Epic got a 20% performance boost and a 20% price increase. So if an Epic customer was suddenly shocked that the Scarlet came out cheaper then they weren't paying attention. Scarlet got worse and more expensive from the announcement. If you still chose the Epic over the Scarlet then RED didn't screw you, you just chose wrong.

"Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal"
- Wash

Björn Benckert said:
Red one is 25k, it got the MX sensor and it has been around long enough to pay for it's R&D. Epic has some more powerfull bit's in there but is also more manufactured at red and time has moved on and components are probably getting cheaper. So my guess is right above 25k for brain only.

Then the question is what they do with Red one pricing...
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Kill it. The FPGAs for the RED One probably just aren't going down in price for RED. Like you say, now that RED makes their own chips they get cheaper over time.
 
Even if I find the price reduction a very good step for the industry (and more particularly for the film maker), I wonder why they took this decision?

They could have put this money in an nother bucket like the Meizler, or the Dragon update...

I think the price is not THE selling argument for their cameras as it is allready fearly cheap (in regards with the 120'000 Euro Penelope Delta).

What let the competition sell Alexas / Deltas... is not the price.

It would be more :

- Form factor, looks more like a camera than a versatile "box" (bigger is better), OVF (option).
- Ease of use (QT, industry standard connectors in ONE box, no need for modules and 3rd party accessories...)
- Less noise form the cooling system and it's overheating troubles.
- Afraid to go with an evolving BETA type of system (based on upgrading and REDUSERing to overcome issues) This would mean an overall better quality check before release.
- No/less rolling shutter
- Higher DR (...?) the argument I still hear.
- ...

I'm sure they will sell more cameras, but the one that are skeptical about RED camera family won't change their mind before the known issues are adressed.

Europe is extremely pro-Alexa, and extremely anti-RED. Look at the AFC web site, it looks like an ARRI add ;-)
This is surely not only due to these known issues but more due to the proactive way RED kiks the balls of the industry. IMHO. Changing this attitude could sell more cameras than a price reduction.

But to adress all of those issues, they will have to make a new camera design... I see something new coming 12 months after Dragons are out of the cage.

Jim certainly is also a visionary business man. I'm sure he made a wise move for his business.


Pat
 
Gavin - you are not addressing my context - indies in Portland - used to rent M-X all tje time now they hire the guy with a scarlet and barely enough acks to call it a kit for $100-$200 a day ... WITH the less than great operator. Most everyone else in pr marlet rents Alexa and F3 ... I have plenty to complain about but had the foresight to sell my Epic hoping they would drop on the used market later in the year . I got even luckier with this announcement and nothing you say from your context affects my market reality. Micro budget Indies are mostly about price first, talent second 25-30 Scarlett's when there were 6-8 MX makes a huge difference in small cities like mine
 
Mike Kushner said:
that's going to make it hard to sell my red one mx. I thought obsolescence was obsolete???
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Your upgrade path was the insanely generous Stage program. Complaining about a seven year old camera being not-obsolete-but-merely-of-lower-resale-value in a market where every other actually-obsoletes their cameras every 2-3 years...odd choice.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
Gavin - you are not addressing my context - indies in Portland - used to rent M-X all tje time now they hire the guy with a scarlet and barely enough acks to call it a kit for $100-$200 a day ... WITH the less than great operator. Most everyone else in pr marlet rents Alexa and F3 ... I have plenty to complain about but had the foresight to sell my Epic hoping they would drop on the used market later in the year . I got even luckier with this announcement and nothing you say from your context affects my market reality. Micro budget Indies are mostly about price first, talent second 25-30 Scarlett's when there were 6-8 MX makes a huge difference in small cities like mine
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But again, that was *always* the plan. Epic was always supposed to be for the small fraction of people who needed a specialty camera. The owner/operator was supposed to buy a Scarlet and then rent an Epic from a rental house for the high-speed work. You can only say RED screwed you if Scarlet was a surprise--you had 2 years knowing it was coming out. And the indie market was already going to go for the 5D Mk3 and GH2 and the F3. If it wasn't 25-30 Scarlets it would have been 25-30 FS700s.

Simultaneously destroying the resale market and not offering any upgrade plan. Now that would be getting screwed.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
Well Gavin many of us Epic owners feel SCREWED BY SCARLET in the first place and cant wait for its ignoble death. I don't blame RED for going after demand, I just wish they had waited until AFTER RED LASER RED RAY to release a low end 4K Camera. I like the idea of RED leading the 4K revolution with the BEST cameras... not pandering to a group better served with prosumer gear. Everything in life changes has been Jim's MO since DAY 1 and you can feel however you want but if Im them... TOUGH DECISIONS need to be made.
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Disagree. 4K @ 30fps (plenty for 99% of filmmakers [not prosumers, not consumers, FILMMAKERS]) could be delivered at $10k. Arri/Sony wouldn't do it so that those who could afford Epic but really only needed a Scarlet would be forced to buy/rent an Epic, those who could only afford a Scarlet be damned. But calling, "bullshit," on that business model it's Red's whole reason for existence.

Gavin Greenwalt said:
You can only say RED screwed you if Scarlet was a surprise--you had 2 years knowing it was coming out.
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To be fair, that's not really true. Until the last minute, we thought the Scarlet was going to be a 2/3" camera for a completely unrelated / non-overlapping market.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
But again, that was *always* the plan. Epic was always supposed to be for the small fraction of people who needed a specialty camera. The owner/operator was supposed to buy a Scarlet and then rent an Epic from a rental house for the high-speed work. You can only say RED screwed you if Scarlet was a surprise--you had 2 years knowing it was coming out. And the indie market was already going to go for the 5D Mk3 and GH2 and the F3. If it wasn't 25-30 Scarlets it would have been 25-30 FS700s.

Simultaneously destroying the resale market and not offering any upgrade plan. Now that would be getting screwed.
Click to expand...

Nobody knew the price or features of Scarlet and Epic was the Red One replacement - trade- in. Ill just agree to disagree with you.
I never said Red screwed me... I just wish we had more time with Epic before it came out so I'm
Again thrilled to see its impending doom, which is not saying I hope you and others lose
I'm sure there will be an upgrade path... and there will be a market for Acarlet it just won't hold it's value like
The R1 did because that camera had a loyalty program attached. My opinion, is merely that. I would rather shoot
With an M-X than a Scarlet.
 
Lee Saxon said:
Disagree with every word. If 4K @ 30fps (plenty for 99% of filmmakers [not prosumers, not consumers, FILMMAKERS]) could be delivered at $10k and the only reason not to do it is to preserve rental rates and a sense of exclusivity to the 1% who need/can afford massive overcrank...not doing it is the Arri/Sony business model. Calling, "bullshit," on all that is the whole point of Red's existence.
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Call it whatever you want - Scarlet cannabilized Epic rentals in my market. That is not bullshit it's a painful fact
 
Lee Saxon said:
To be fair, that's not really true. Until the last minute, we thought the Scarlet was going to be a 2/3" camera for a completely unrelated / non-overlapping market.
Click to expand...

Only if you ignore the Scarlet S35 -> EpicS -> Scarlet-X. I was still hoping for a FF35 Scarlet at the announcement. Instead I got a crippled Scarlet S35 with the promise that it could be upgraded to something similar to the Scarlet FF35 in the second half of 2012 (and the not too subtle hint that the Scarlet-FF35 was dead so buy the Scarlet-X if you wanted the closest thing.

red-scarlet-epic-specs.jpg
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
Call it whatever you want - Scarlet cannabilized Epic rentals in my market. That is not bullshit it's a painful fact
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Just curious, The rental price for a scarlet package and an epic package can not be that much different as the camera body is quite a small part of it all, or? As if you need everything from camera filters to Dolly and DIT. I do not know about your setup, but I find it odd that people think that they could make money from renting out one camera package. I find it impossible to compete that way with bigger rental houses that has more gear and can provide a better total deal, with lights, camera, grip etc. Back when we all shot film I do not remember anyone that though that investing family funds into a 435 was sound.

Digital film cameras will get out of date just as fast as still cameras has done. So I think if you do not have your money back within a few months then you might as well rent.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
lol Dan 11K for Epic? You are dreaming pal :)
i think you sould be little bit realistic with the prices.And they stated no price reduction on Scarlet.I think 10K is exactly good price for scarlet.
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I'll throw my hat in the ring for this one: Red Epic X - $29,000 - $30,000
 
With my hard earned bucks, I'd spend $5k on a Red One, $7k on a Scarlet, and $14k on an Epic - bodies only
 
Will Keir said:
So they cut Epic prices by 10k?
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It would be nice to see something for customers who placed their order on a Scarlet barely 24 hours after Jim's announcement on 3rd November last year. We love our cameras and it would be great to have some sort of a piggyback, so we can reach out to the Epic.

A
 
Antonio Ribeiro said:
It would be nice to see something for customers who placed their order on a Scarlet barely 24 hours after Jim's announcement on 3rd November last year. We love our cameras and it would be great to have some sort of a piggyback, so we can reach out to the Epic.

A
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Agreed, I think if Scarlet owners are left without an upgrade path that'd be a pretty hard pill to swallow. Regardless costs always drop. From what I understand RED was plenty welcoming in bringing R1 owners into the Epic family. I'm not scared as I doubt RED would have made Scarlet a great entry system to just dash those hopes.
 
Isaac Marchionna said:
Agreed, I think if Scarlet owners are left without an upgrade path that'd be a pretty hard pill to swallow. Regardless costs always drop. From what I understand RED was plenty welcoming in bringing R1 owners into the Epic family. I'm not scared as I doubt RED would have made Scarlet a great entry system to just dash those hopes.
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I wouldn't swallow it. Without a good upgrade to Dragon as originally promised I'm out. RED said that I should buy RED because 'the other guys' make you buy a new camera but RED lets you upgrade which saves you money. But iff the upgrade costs as much as a new camera and I can't resell my old camera then I'm just overpaying. Especially since compared to Epic the Scarlet is the same weight, same loud fan, same power draw but 1/10th the speed. The Epic-S was a much much better value but without an avenue to dump broken Epic chips, epic would have been way more expensive and Epic-S wouldn't have been affordable. So the Scarlet was a short term compromise to compensate for poor yields imo. I say it's the Scarlet customer's turn to get a little benefit for helping out the Epic program in its time of need now that the Epics are so profitable.

If though they offer a trade-in-upgrade to Epic for cheap (say $5k-$7k) then it's a killer deal and a no-brainer upgrade. It would still then be a $13k upgrade to Dragon but you at least get a huge performance boost in the process.

I assume if I'm doing this math so is RED and they see the challenge they've set for themselves.
 
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