New Epic-W vs. Alexa Mini test

[William Tracy Babcock]

http://nofilmschool.com/2017/02/shootout-arri-alexa-mini-vs-red-epic-w-helium


A few people I know conducted this shootout, having shot it almost two months ago. They just finished post on it this week, with the final published results appearing on NFS today.


It's one of the better tests I've yet seen, and all those involved are incredibly talented commercial/narrative DP's, along with a top-notch colorist.


I have to say the results have me a bit disappointed, as the 6-year old sensor in the Mini outperforms the Helium in many of the of categories tested. Including most notably, a stop and a half difference in highlight retention. There are absolutely some caveats, which they note in the write-up, including:

- Both cameras are rated at 800 ISO, though they found the Helium should be rated more accurately around 1280 (which to me should be the biggest variable to consider)
- They performed this test prior to the newest version of IPP2, while obviously the Alexa's pipeline has had years to mature.
- They conduced the entire test with the Standard OLPF
- They shot the Helium at 6:1 Compression in 8KHD, though Resolution was not part of the test.


However with that all being said, and as a VV depositor who just sent in their CF Weapon for upgrade to Helium I really hope there's more to be pulled out of the new sensor. The DxO test, which I believe tests the raw sensor prior to most processing (please correct me if this is wrong) definitely shows the Helium to be a clear upgrade to Dragon, while I'm not sure this text exactly confirms that.

 

[Olivier Gresse]

Well, I'm a little disappointed too.

How a camera announced with 14 stops (dynamic range) can beat by one stop and a half, a camera announced at 16.5 stops!!!!

How a 8K camera can be less sharp than a UHD camera?

How can one have such horrible skin colors in natural light?

Please Graeme !!!!

 

[Charles Bergquist]

Damn.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I'm about to grab some popcorn and watch this one unfold....

 

[Björn Benckert]

Yet another test between two cameras where people start to look a color rendition and highlight rendition without taking the difference in dr distribution into acount.

Helium has its DR slided to the left in comparision, Which is difficult to argue being a bad thing. Before the two are aligined in the right end of their spectrum all comparisions in terms of colors etc is just causing confusion if you ask me. I see some of it allready in this thread, and in the comments revolving most of this type of tests.

In short this test shows that Weapon is able to produce the same image with only 33% of the amount of light that the alexa needs. Or atleast thats my conclution. But from reading the comments about this test and reading the summary writen by those that made it, its quite clear that mots others looks at this very differently than I do.

 

[Brad Grimm]

The test is flawed from the standpoint that the Helium has a 1280 ISO Base, no question.

Also, I hear rumors that the official IPP2 has much better highlight range.. or something...

The tinting to green is a known issue that hopefully gets addressed ASAP.

But, even as it stands now, with proper exposure, the Helium is creating amazing images.. I am blown away everyday.

The Alexa sensor is amazing, no doubt about it... but its a much lower resolution sensor as well, If they could achieve the same results at a higher resolution, they would have released it already... we will see.

The fact that the Helium can compete with the Alexa sensor being far younger, and having much higher resolution is impressive.

 

[Olivier Gresse]

The fact that the Helium has a 1250 ISO Base means that we must use the camera at 1250 iso in priority and not at 800 iso ?

 

[Brad Grimm]

The fact that the Helium has a 1250 ISO Base means that we must use the camera at 1250 iso in priority and not at 800 iso ?

If you want a very clean image shoot 800 ISO.

If you want the most DR, Like a sunny day, Shoot 1280- 1600.

 

[Nick Vera]

you're saying at ISO 1280, Helium will beat Alexa's Dynamic Range?

 

[Curtis boggs]

The loss in the upper dynamic range and the clipping they experienced was simply
because they didn't know how to control dynamic range with the Helium.
Sure as heck shouldn't have shot at 800 iso and they even admit it themselves.

Test is crap IMO

C

 

[Brad Grimm]

you're saying at ISO 1280, Helium will beat Alexa's Dynamic Range?

I am not saying it will beat the Alexa, but it will absolutely perform better. This example from Phil's test is a great example.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Tests have already been done that show that Dragon sensors have a stop over the Alexa, FWIW. I think some people don't know how to test cameras.

 

[Phil Holland]

Neat test.

These are "wildly" different sensors and as such, should be shot accordingly.

I rarely post for no reason, but in case this was missed:

Phil's RED Dragon and Helium Notes

ISO

Here are the Balanced ISO Ranges for both Dragon and Helium. Take note that they are different for each OLPF.

Side note. REDWideGamutRGB/Log3G10 is being "buttoned up" and will be done soon-ish. Proper IPP2 implementation will reveal even more detail out of RED footage due to the new demosiac, which at the moment is supported only in beta REDCINE-X Pro. Helium is still young and things are changing rapidly. None of that is a defense really, but there's more to this sensor than what is seen in the test.

 

[Nick Vera]

The loss in the upper dynamic range and the clipping they experienced was simply
because they didn't know how to control dynamic range with the Helium.
Sure as heck shouldn't have shot at 800 iso and they even admit it themselves.

Test is crap IMO

C

Attached is what they said.

 

[Nick Vera]

I am not saying it will beat the Alexa, but it will absolutely perform better. This example from Phil's test is a great example.

Copy.

 

[Phil Holland]

Attached is what they said.

Then image noise does not matter?

It's a bit harder to test, but comparing image quality in motion also includes noise performance. And there is a notable difference between Helium, Dragon, and Alev III at their respective maximum resolutions and the general image noise when finished out for 4K and 2K for that matter.

For instance, if you are looking to match image noise on an observational level and you require raising the ISO on Helium, which would produce more retained highlight detail.......

A more interesting test, and more interesting in the sense of the ISO range tested, would have been to use the Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF IMO.

It's all good, I'm actually just happy people are testing, but it's also important to point things out that were missed. Especially if they are known quantities.

 

[Nick Vera]

Then image noise does not matter?

It's a bit harder to test, but comparing image quality in motion also includes noise performance. And there is a notable difference between Helium, Dragon, and Alev III at their respective maximum resolutions and the general image noise when finished out for 4K and 2K for that matter.

For instance, if you are looking to match image noise on an observational level and you require raising the ISO on Helium, which would produce more retained highlight detail.......

A more interesting test, and more interesting in the sense of the ISO range tested, would have been to use the Skin Tone - Highlight OLPF IMO.

It's all good, I'm actually just happy people are testing, but it's also important to point things out that were missed. Especially if they are known quantities.

Agreed. I'm just putting what one of the test takers actually said in response to a previous comment earlier on the first page haha

Best!

-Nick

 

[Olivier Gresse]

Thanks Phil for your document.

Have you done your test with the STH OLPF too, to see the difference in the Highlights with the SDT OLPF?

 

[Aaron Lochert]

Attached is what they said.

Lol.

When is anyone going to understand that if they have different sensitivities, but you shoot them at the same ISO, then one camera is going to be exposed perfectly and the other will be underexposed/overexposed and push/pull processed (in camera)?

Would you compare ASA 100 film and ASA 500 film the same way? Meter and light both for 500 and complain that the 100 speed film lost all it's shadow detail by being underexposed 2 1/3 stops and pushed back to normal?

Someone could come out with an ISO 50 native cinema camera and shoot it along side Alexa, both at 800, for a "true comparison" and claim it has many more stops of "highlight retention." Yeah, there might be no shadow information left, but check out that highlight retention!

Ugh. Frustrating. And for what it's worth, I still love the images coming from ARRI.
RED is a different tool for a different job.

 

[Phil Holland]

Thanks Phil for your document.

Have you done your test with the STH OLPF too, to see the difference in the Highlights with the SDT OLPF?

Anytime Olivier.

This thread contains much of what you are looking for:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?154113-RED-8K-Sensor-Test-2017&p=1705884#post1705884


And just to everybody, it's easy to crap on a test, but it's better to communicate and share/distribute information.

Helium is new to a lot of people, heck OLPFs and how they effect the image is new too for a lot of folks.

Looking deeply into any digital cinema camera requires a bit of a technical eye as well as one tuned towards the aesthetics, which sometimes makes you look two different ways and while you're missing out what's going on in the middle where things are happening. Which is why I've conveniently grown a third eye Kidding. Maybe kidding.