Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB13- Proxy Module

A. Clint Litton said:
I've longed for the day to sell the PIX240 and have an integrated proxy module, which combined with Dragon would put the Epic back on top...but for now I guess we'll just have to see if the Dragon sensor is enough to do that on it's own. From a DP's perspective, it will likely be a great leap forward, but for all the blowback we'll invariably get from post houses / producers / etc, it will remain a difficult sell.
Click to expand...

exaclty what i hoped for, waited with the purchase of a pix of for a long time waiting for this module, but now it doesn't have any advantage over a pix 240, i will just get one of those...really dissapointed :( Red says the listen to the customer, but if customers are asking for something for over 1.5 years, and even make sketches of what would work, and they deliver this proxy module, doesn't look like they really listen...
 
A. Clint Litton said:
You're likely right, Steven. That said, it seems like this proxy module was not well thought out.

As was always mentioned by Toia and others, this proposed module's ability to record off-speed material with correct timecode to match the raw footage would make it a true proxy device. Pulling the HD-SDI feed to do so, the inability to record a different gamma or colorspace from what you're monitoring, the requirement of cabling which can lead to (possibly undetectable) errors in the recording...these all make for a sub-par product.

I understand wanting to discourage people from using the proxy module to get realtime deliverables, but I for one would rather give the end user the option to do so, trusting that they should know the true benefits of going back to the raw, as opposed to just closing the door on it and handing a gigantic market segment to Alexa, Canon and whoever else will give the people what they're asking for. Maybe it was that they figured the cost of making a proper proxy module was just too high for most users (+$5k?), or maybe it was the size that would be required that ultimately led to this "stripped down" implementation. I know it must be frustrating for the hardworking people at Red to hear these kinds of criticisms when they're trying to please us with an integrated feature set, but I can't help but feel that whoever gave the go-ahead on this design had settled for something that may have been too easily deemed "good enough." Maybe that's naive of me to think...it could have been a calculated business move to protect Meizler/Rocket/Redcode. Whatever the reason, I would rather have a product that was okayed by the same people who continually want to push their sensor tech until it delivers beyond expectation...even if it means that product doesn't actually ship for another 6-12-18 months. Yes, there is the meizler, but let's be honest, it is an awesome piece of hardware with a ton of functionality built-in, and some of us just don't need all of that functionality. And the Rocket isn't always practical or economical. So while I'm glad that they wanted to provide users with a highly requested module (probably #1 on the vast majority of users' lists), this sadly falls short of expectation and does nothing to bring Epic closer to winning back all those jobs that went to other cameras because of workflow. I've longed for the day to sell the PIX240 and have an integrated proxy module, which combined with Dragon would put the Epic back on top...but for now I guess we'll just have to see if the Dragon sensor is enough to do that on it's own. From a DP's perspective, it will likely be a great leap forward, but for all the blowback we'll invariably get from post houses / producers / etc, it will remain a difficult sell.

My nickel's worth...

Clint

P.S. Sorry, Steven, if you felt this was directed at you...definitely not my intention. I guess I'm growing weary of constantly making excuses and trying to sell people on this wonderful camera. I know the many benefits of shooting Redcode Raw in a tiny form factor, but my reasons don't always align with those making the final decisions. 4k/UHD is the future, clearly...Red was spot-on with that. But here and now, people still want to simplify their workflow and walk away with footage as opposed to paying someone to keep up with transcodes, rocket rental, OT, etc.

P.S.S. I'd also like to reiterate that I've been a longtime supporter/proponent of Red as a company, as a belief, and I still think the people behind this company have done the unthinkable in revolutionizing the camera and film industry. I just think this particular decision was short-sighted (or too damn future-aware).
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it won't sell. But I agree with you. A real proxy module would create DNxHD MXF files with complete metadata. This is an HD-SDI recorder. Yes, it's better that it's made by Red, so it IS a step in the right direction. But it's not really what we've been asking for, AFAICT.
 
Peter Moretti said:
I'm not saying it won't sell. But I agree with you. A real proxy module would create DNxHD MXF files with complete metadata. This is an HD-SDI recorder. Yes, it's better that it's made by Red, so it IS a step in the right direction. But it's not really what we've been asking for, AFAICT.
Click to expand...


I was also hoping for more regarding this module,
most of all a TC master clock to get rid of the clockit.
A second EVF/LCD out would have been perfect, too!

I don't mind so much off speed recording, cause it could still be done via playback, I guess.

4:2:2 10 bit recording and different codec options plus no glitches is more important imo.

I've had bad experiences with three different pix240, that could not be solved after months of testing.
But the image quality coming from the SDI was already stunning, as recorded by the pix.

For certain projects I need reliable high quality 1080 recording for TV productions that don't pay for 4k grading.

Please Red, clarify what this thing does and doesn't do.

Recording formats (DnxHD 180/220, Prores HQ), connectivity, weight?

And: what could be expected from future fw upgrades?
(Different colorspace/gamma settings for EVF and HD-SDI i.e.? Is 2k recording on the horizon?)

I appreciate the form factor and will keep my hopes up till we know more!!
 
Last edited:
Steven Caesare said:
I think there may be the assumption that everything is in those pins after processing.... from a few recent modules (this proxy module, the Meizler, and the +1 module) I think it's more likely that the pins are the data bus that the rest of the architecture, including the sensor, ASICs, and conversion electronics ride on.

Thus the raw sensor data is there, but it's the ASIC's/conversion circuitry that generate feeds for HDMI, SDI, audio, etc...

If a module wants to provide an additional output or data format, it has to grab the data off the bus, debayer or decode it(depending on if it wants pre- or post-compression), and then generate it's own output, or re-encode to something like ProRes.

That's likely on of the costs contributing to the Meizler being more expensive, and having it's own fan to cool it. And why things like the +1 module or this proxy recorder are cheaper, and don't have as much active electronics in them.

-sc
Click to expand...

if thats really the case, then, wow, the modular system has some serious flows.
 
Bob Minervini said:
if thats really the case, then, wow, the modular system has some serious flows.
Click to expand...

I think that's a very unfortunate way of looking at it. "Flawed" implies it doesn't do something it was designed to do. In my opinion, the modular design was a leap ahead of the capability that any other camera system had, and works just fine. The original Intel Pentium was flawed: it didn't perform a math function correctly. The Epic is necessarily limited... any system is... which is why you never see anything successful stop at V1.0 and never advance... this goes double for digital systems.

What I believe we are seeing creative methods of delivering solutions that users are clamoring for at several different cost points, using the facilities available.

The Meizler takes the high-end approach, and actually generates it's own discrete outputs using data off the bus. It also includes a crapload of other functionality.

This proxy module is designed to be affordable, and forgoes the cost/size/power/heat requirements of that solution and instead utilizes an existing output and delivers a new realtime proxy encoder.

Is there room in the middle for something that includes the debayer/decode circuitry along with the encoder for a cable-less solution that can also handle high-freamerate footage, yet doesn't also include wireless motor controls, etc... from the high-end solution? Perhaps. Who knows, maybe it's even in the works.

I'm sure it would be nice (if technically feasible), to include the SDI/HDMI outputs in the bus connectors in the future. But that doesn't mean the system architecture is flawed now. And I suspect that RED doesn't plan on standing still... system architecture included.

-sc
 
Its frustrating that these announcements are made but the technical details are not included. What exactly does this proxy module do? Does it include Red Metadata and most importantly the clip names? What flavours of Pro Res and DNxHD does it record? Will we be able to automatically record high speed footage into the proxy recorder? Doesn't Red know yet or is it a deliberate policy only to feed the basic information first? It only seems to breed wild speculation.
 
I've come around to liking a lot about this module since the start of the week. I can imagine buying one, even at $2500, if a mini card reader and two mini cards came in the same price.
 
Bob Minervini said:
if thats really the case, then, wow, the modular system has some serious flows.
Click to expand...

I've been thinking the same thing.

I'm liking this module more and more though, purely from an aesthetic point of view. I hate seeing pictures of Epics that look like they've been cobbled together with spare parts from a DSLR rig. At least this keeps things neat, tidy, and ultimately more professional looking.

Dave
 
Had a chance to put it on a scale at Red Germany: it's 700gr.
It requires the module adapter or +1 adapter to mount.
Prores family is supposed to be there first, then DNxHD and finally H264 they said.

Subject to change of course...
 
connects via hdsdi cable ? :-(

very sad. so i will stay with my pix240i. it connects also via hdsdi cable. and adds high quality audio. and a ambiend timecode gen. and a small monitor.
as well it is a standalone device, record and playback in every situation. using of cheap ssd drives, not expensive red ssd media. aaaaah, and cf cards as well.
and it is here. now!

can´t understand why a module must be connected with a hdsdi cable. not very sexy. sad...

i needed a 2nd evf/monitor connector, red offered a evf "module" which takes use of the hdmi connector. this brought me to the pro i/o module, which i bought.
because i don´t want to feed a module, which i see as "part of the camera" with a cable from the camera. i may better describe it as: go out from the camera into the camera ???

a little bit frustrated, sorry about that.

norbert
 
What happened to the days where Jarred and Jim would throw out a crazy idea or comment and everyone would chime in on what they thought would make it perfect? The idea for the proxie mod was to make this camera a bit more "today" friendly. This just complicates things with another card, another reader, another part, another cable. I'm sure if Jarred posted the ideas for this mod we all could have made suggestions and made this much more of what we needed. It looks cool as shit though!
 
David Litchfield said:
I've been thinking the same thing.

I'm liking this module more and more though, purely from an aesthetic point of view. I hate seeing pictures of Epics that look like they've been cobbled together with spare parts from a DSLR rig. At least this keeps things neat, tidy, and ultimately more professional looking.

Dave
Click to expand...
The meizler module definitely takes the cake for changing this camera into a crazy "neat and tidy" beast. I just hope they can make it work consistently. It seems to still have gremlins inside.
 
Tom Gleeson said:
Its frustrating that these announcements are made but the technical details are not included. What exactly does this proxy module do? Does it include Red Metadata and most importantly the clip names? What flavours of Pro Res and DNxHD does it record? Will we be able to automatically record high speed footage into the proxy recorder? Doesn't Red know yet or is it a deliberate policy only to feed the basic information first? It only seems to breed wild speculation.
Click to expand...


As far as I know you'd have to record off speed first and the play-back and record that to the Proxy but I could be wrong... Everything changes.

- E
 
no high speed in the 1080 module? if so, not very useful for my applications...and yet another set of cards and card reader to carry. i think the point has been missed.
 
Mike Kushner said:
no high speed in the 1080 module? if so, not very useful for my applications...and yet another set of cards and card reader to carry. i think the point has been missed.
Click to expand...


Not a new card reader. There will be an adapter to use with existing reader.
 
Has anyone considered the Oddessy 7Q by convergent design? Super cool...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top