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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB 2018: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

C. Burkhart said:
Middle grey is always the reference. Call it whatever you chose. Highlight latitude is much more difficult to achieve than shadow information.
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Not if you know how to expose it. Just meter for a higher ISO give your footage more room in the highlights like you would with a RED.
 
Check out that video I referred to in my last post. My concern is not with people who nail exposure for on a job. Its with the idea that this is a walk around camera for the masses and I suspect its going to be a lot less tolerant than people believe.

The flip side to this, is that often when they become aware of this, they in fact overcompensate and begin underexposing too much, leading to a lack of color information. Unlike a RED with tremendous bit color info, you cant just pull those colors back up easily, regardless of how noisy your information is.
 
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The same sensor (Sony Starvis) in the GH5s has the following DR value's

Like709 10.3 stops
HLG 14.6 stops
LogL 13.5 stops
CineLike - D 13.9 stops

4096x2160 4:2:2 10bit All - Intra 400 Mb/s

The pocket can shoot 4096 x 2160 CinemaDNG RAW - 2160 Mb/s 12 bits
So the codec won't be the problem.

Don't expect this $ 1.300 camera to be a replacement for an $ 80.000 ARRI camera.
Since when is an ARRI camera a walk around camera?
 
I do wish Blackmagic offered an All-I 400Mb/s codec because the closest similar size is Prores 422 LT and we know that's nowhere near the same quality. Prores is obviously much better, but for the average consumer looking into a $1300 camera the file sizes are going to be a letdown for them compared to similar quality coming from DSLR/Mirrorless cameras.
 
Savannah Miller said:
I do wish Blackmagic offered an All-I 400Mb/s codec because the closest similar size is Prores 422 LT and we know that's nowhere near the same quality. Prores is obviously much better, but for the average consumer looking into a $1300 camera the file sizes are going to be a letdown for them compared to similar quality coming from DSLR/Mirrorless cameras.
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So... You want BMD to include a codec that has basically 0 advantage over ProRes? What you’re suggesting is kind of nonsense... :/
 
Maybe I was wrong. There is an advantage and that is file size. Prores 422 HQ is over twice the size of the 400mb/s all-I codec and barely better IQ. The 422 LT is similar to the 400mb/s option but it's very poor quality. I think the average consumer prioritizes IQ in a low file size over better playback and higher-quality codecs. I feel like the average user will be shocked at how large the files are, and they will try to increase the compression and be dissapointed with the images.

5dmark IV records to a very stupid MJPEG codec that many people were criticizing as an odd choice and too "large." Sure it plays back poorly, but fine details are preserved very well with that codec. If MJPEG from that camera in 4K is "too large" I can't imagine what the average consumer will think when they start shooting prores.
 
Quick chime - the discussion that the RED logo gets work Is inaccurate it’s the deliverable.
I’ve found R3D to simply speak for itself
Case in point weather channel
They were Terrified of the work flow and now in love
Simple.
I’ve been fucked by FPN, magenta corners, moire, aliasing, black sun's, etc. etc. but still love the 2.5k wired to vinatge contax.
Still won’t pay the bills if it can’t get on the podium

less about the logo and more about the deliverables is what I’ve found

I will still maybe buy one easy to spend 1200 on kambucha haha

Much ado about nothing until the images come thru, no?

Fun toy tho !
 
Chuck Greenwood said:
Quick chime - the discussion that the RED logo gets work Is inaccurate it’s the deliverable.
I’ve found R3D to simply speak for itself
Case in point weather channel
They were Terrified of the work flow and now in love
Simple.
I’ve been fucked by FPN, magenta corners, moire, aliasing, black sun's, etc. etc. but still love the 2.5k wired to vinatge contax.
Still won’t pay the bills if it can’t get on the podium

less about the logo and more about the deliverables is what I’ve found

I will still maybe buy one easy to spend 1200 on kambucha haha

Much ado about nothing until the images come thru, no?

Fun toy tho !
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That's pretty generalized comment because only one Blackmagic camera has has black sun, and the resolve fix for it is VERY easy. FPN is not an issue unless you underexpose your shots and try to lift it back up in grading. Is that maybe what you did there? I don't think FPN is an issue outside the Production 4K sensor but even then it's not unusable by any stretch. Magenta corners was only a big issue on the 4.6K and that was was quietly addressed with both firmware as well as physical fix on the PRO version and possibly subsequent 4.6K models too. Also moire, aliasing, also decreased significantly once Blackmagic switched to 4K+ acquisition and if you buy an 3rd party OLPF it's basically a non-issue.

Prores deliverables are still way better received than R3D and that's why RED was forced to add it to their cameras. There's a reason 90% of network TV drama is shot 1080p prores 4:4:4 as it just works so well. Actually as a Compositor I have no problems working with Prores materials either and the occasional Netflix show that shoots RED is no better when it comes to post and just takes extra time to deal with the images.

It seems like maybe you learned and made mistakes with Blackmagic cameras and as you got more experienced you switched over to RED. So the mindset that Blackmagic had all of those issues and that EPIC MX is a "much better" camera comes from just generally more experience?
 
Savannah Miller said:
Maybe I was wrong. There is an advantage and that is file size. Prores 422 HQ is over twice the size of the 400mb/s all-I codec and barely better IQ. The 422 LT is similar to the 400mb/s option but it's very poor quality.
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I’m just going to lean back and wait for you to actually prove this. Can’t wait to see how you came to that conclusion. ;)

[Edit] By which I mean the image quality notes. The data rate is kind of incontestable.
 
Savannah Miller said:
That's pretty generalized comment because only one Blackmagic camera has has black sun, and the resolve fix for it is VERY easy. FPN is not an issue unless you underexpose your shots and try to lift it back up in grading. Is that maybe what you did there? I don't think FPN is an issue outside the Production 4K sensor but even then it's not unusable by any stretch. Magenta corners was only a big issue on the 4.6K and that was was quietly addressed with both firmware as well as physical fix on the PRO version and possibly subsequent 4.6K models too. Also moire, aliasing, also decreased significantly once Blackmagic switched to 4K+ acquisition and if you buy an 3rd party OLPF it's basically a non-issue.

Prores deliverables are still way better received than R3D and that's why RED was forced to add it to their cameras. There's a reason 90% of network TV drama is shot 1080p prores 4:4:4 as it just works so well. Actually as a Compositor I have no problems working with Prores materials either and the occasional Netflix show that shoots RED is no better when it comes to post and just takes extra time to deal with the images.

It seems like maybe you learned and made mistakes with Blackmagic cameras and as you got more experienced you switched over to RED. So the mindset that Blackmagic had all of those issues and that EPIC MX is a "much better" camera comes from just generally more experience?
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I have seen plenty of FPN in the shadows on BM material m the previous generation of cams, even in properly exposed shots. That was what was so troubling about it. Its not true that it was just in underexposed work. I havent seen much of it lately though from the UMP.

I agree Prores is a generally appreciated workflow. For example I dont see a great deal of afvantage shooting codex raw on the alexa compared to Prores 444. I do think that RED's R3D is the unsung hero of the company, but I fully expect PRORES Raw to take the market.
 
Actually it's not just Prores that's appreciated, it's the Alexa in general. It might seem like I'm whining here but because 90% of American TV is shot on Alexa, at your average VFX house, their pipeline is 100% built for the Alexa. Everything from their automation to all the preset values within the Nuke nodes themselves. So it means the difference between doing 2 shots per hour to doing 4 or 5. I have seen firsthand artists do 30+ green screen driving shots in a single day and that's all possible because every show seems to use the same codec/camera which makes life easier. Jumping back and forth between cameras systems and recording formats makes things generally take longer.

I remember seeing some weird stuff from a popular netflix comedy show where the original camera files looked like fully colored rec.709 images. And this is one of their most popular shows, so it struck me as odd that they completely disregard the netflix 4K recording requirements entirely.
 
Actually my experience with BM was a feature shot ona 2.5k and it did just fine. I got a then magenta unit and that was it for me. Too much hassle. I even think a pocket with a switar 26 f1.1 is awesome but personally yes, RED has been a godsend to me and my clients for sure, yes personally best thing ever. Much respect to all image painters yes.
 
The Ursa Mini Pro is a huge step up from previous Blackmagic cameras. A night/day difference. Color and dynamic range are noticeably better. When over/underexposing, colors fall apart a lot more than maybe Helium/Alexa but otherwise color to me I feel is almost better than DSMC1 Dragon cameras. With the newer RED color science, especially weapon/helium then I feel like there's much more of a difference, but it's still not huge in normal scenarios.

Hopefully this "Gen 4" color science is not just marketing hype and lives up to their latest offerings.
 
Savannah Miller said:
I do wish Blackmagic offered an All-I 400Mb/s codec because the closest similar size is Prores 422 LT and we know that's nowhere near the same quality. Prores is obviously much better, but for the average consumer looking into a $1300 camera the file sizes are going to be a letdown for them compared to similar quality coming from DSLR/Mirrorless cameras.
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I hope they will come with a cineform in camera codec(s).
Cineform is low on compute resources and has a very good compression to quality ratio.
 
Misha Engel said:
I hope they will come with a cineform in camera codec(s).
Cineform is low on compute resources and has a very good compression to quality ratio.
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Can Cineform go higher than 4:1 ?
Having more compression could come in handy in more than one situation.
 
That's very interesting.
I think Blackmagic will need higher compression ratios as soon as they move to higher resolutions.
 
Stefan Antonescu said:
That's very interesting.
I think Blackmagic will need higher compression ratios as soon as they move to higher resolutions.
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I don't see Blackmagic moving to higher resolution any time soon. 4K is more than enough resolution for 99% of productions, and if Blackmagic ever builds a larger-format sensor, they will probably just use larger photosites like Arri does. My guess is Blackmagic's next camera will be the same 4.6k sensor but with 4K 120fps and 1080p 240fps enabled. Probably they will use some of the materials of the Pocket camera to shave off some weight too.
 
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