NAB 2018: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[jordan levy]

same, the screen is five inches which is huge on a smaller camera like that, we have been using 2.5 inch screens on 5ds and A7's.
as well that really really bad one on the old pocket cam i even made work walking around with a little sun hood, focus peaking and doing manual focus.

 

[Alex.Mitchell]

What John said.

I did ALL of the things, that Jacek think is impossible, since 2012 with different BM cameras, and make a living of it.

Looks like he is ether

1. - totally wrong
2. - has no hands on experience with those cameras
3. - or John and I have superpowers

Not to dogpile but yeah, very little of that post made much sense from my experience with BMD cameras. Different strokes I guess?

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Not to dogpile but yeah, very little of that post made much sense from my experience with BMD cameras. Different strokes I guess?

See that's exactly my point: your past experience. You can keep doing what you've been doing and you'll keep receiving what you've been receiving. BMD had an opportunity with this camera to take it to the next level with the user experience. They chosen not to. Features have been shot with 5D2. The creatives found the way. It does not mean it should stay that way. The essence of progress. Of all people the creatives should get it. Apparently not....

 

[Misha Engel]

See that's exactly my point: your past experience. You can keep doing what you've been doing and you'll keep receiving what you've been receiving. BMD had an opportunity with this camera to take it to the next level with the user experience. They chosen not to. Features have been shot with 5D2. The creatives found the way. It does not mean it should stay that way. The essence of progress. Of all people the creatives should get it. Apparently not....

Can you explain what you can't do with an UMP and/or BMPCC4k what you can do with an other brand cinema camera?

 

[jordan levy]

on the contrary, they DID take it to the next level in mu opinion, waiting 5 years pays off. im not sure what else you would want in a pocket camera.
seems to be packed full on functions, its going to be a music video making machine for one, great for doc stuff, limitless.
if there are no huge qc issues this camera will take over the indie market like the 5d did in its time.

 

[C. Burkhart]

It's always the same story. BM releases a new camera and massive threads and interest appear. It's like the second coming.
I have to say BM is good at buzz. HOWEVER, previous experience has shown that with BM it is best to wait and see what the reality is when it is finally out there. As with all cameras usually people find that there are issues and the deflation begins. The only thing that matters to me is the degree of the issues. And yes, there will be issues. It's normal.
Personally, I think that if anyone expects a $1200 camera to perform like a $50K one there is already a bit of a problem.
For me it is down to QC and realistic expectations. The first is BM's responsibility and the second is the enduser's.
So I reserve further judgement until it is actually released and I see the results in the grading suite.
I will just be happy to not see FPN, magenta corners, moire, aliasing, black sun's, etc. etc.
If they do manage to release a camera that is rock solid, this may just be the burger which sells their fries and probably the rest of their happy meal as well.
In the meantime I will be content to eat a nice piece of steak with a normal salad instead. I'm a bit tired of fast food.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

on the contrary, they DID take it to the next level in mu opinion, waiting 5 years pays off. im not sure what else you would want in a pocket camera.
seems to be packed full on functions, its going to be a music video making machine for one, great for doc stuff, limitless.
if there are no huge qc issues this camera will take over the indie market like the 5d did in its time.

Of course I said that they will sell a boat load. But It could be better and should be better. We all should strive for better. It looks like it's only me... I will remind everyone here when there is all the bitching and moaning about the dim touch screen with finger prints all over, the crappy AF and the anemic battery life... Because there will be bitching and moaning about that once the high of buying the newest and "greatest" fix wears out and the buyer remorse /withdrawals kick in.... The joys of consumerism;-)

 

[jordan levy]

i really dont think anyone is going to bitch and moan about a 1200 dollar camera, unless it has poor quality imagery. and even then... its costs less then one of my minimags.
and my 4.7 touch monitor on my raven sucks as well...never bitched though.
Jacek, you are an amazing technician, no denying that!

 

[Frank Glencairn]

Dissing a touch screen with finger prints all over, and anemic battery life of a camera, on a RED forum - LOL

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

That's my point Frank, again.
It doesn't mater what forum, what camera. I think you are too wrapped up in politics, these are strictly technical discussions...

 

[Misha Engel]

That's my point Frank, again.
It doesn't mater what forum, what camera. I think you are too wrapped up in politics, these are strictly technical discussions...

It has a touchscreen + a lot of button's, strictly technical speaking

 

[Savannah Miller]

I think part of the negativity towards lower-end camera systems is that the truth is, the difference between a 50K and 5K camera these days is almost nil when you factor in lenses, lighting, production design, and final graded output. And then when you factor in the way the camera will be used, in many ways the camera might even be BETTER. The idea of blackmagic having poor QC, etc. seem to be mostly from people that don't know how to use their cameras as Blackmagic is in a much lower price-bracket than their cameras otherwise perform. People who shoot with log gamuts for the first time and start lifting up their underexposed images and claiming they see too much FPN or that the cameras are "unusuable."

I think 2017 was the year that manufactures such as Blackmagic, Kinefinity, etc. put out their best work and as the years continue, RED will continue to break technical boundaries and their cameras will get further and further ahead in terms of camera specs, but in reality the gap in image quality to the end consumer is fairly small. RED was the new kid that forced everyone to lower their prices and produce a better product, but now Blackmagic is able to do that on another level entirely. They don't have ridiculous patents or IP protection the way RED does because all they care about is delivering the best product at an affordable price with no market segmentation.

It's a different way of making cameras that saves them lots of money, and whether it's the right way or not, it brings a reliable, quality product at an affordable price.

People always like to bring up the lifespan of a RED camera and how it reliably lasts for 10+ years. Why are you using a 10-year-old digital camera exactly? Because it makes you look cooler to clients because it says RED on the side?

 

[Alex.Mitchell]

People always like to bring up the lifespan of a RED camera and how it reliably lasts for 10+ years. Why are you using a 10-year-old digital camera exactly? Because it makes you look cooler to clients because it says RED on the side?

Well, the point is you could still shoot an amazing film on a Red One MX. There are things about Red’s cameras that put them ahead of a lot of modern cameras out there, which makes them a solid investment if you’re a working professional.

See that's exactly my point: your past experience. You can keep doing what you've been doing and you'll keep receiving what you've been receiving.

I suppose that’s the thing we’re disagreeing on; I want more of the same, but iterated upon in helpful ways, because I like what I am making and how I’m making it. At this point I don’t feel like the equipment is holding me back, and for my personal stuff I really prefer the DSLR form factor—it travels in my backpack well, feels good in the hand, and doesn’t draw attention to itself. Hell, if they had released a boxy BMMCC or EZ Cam inspired version of the 4KPCC then I’d probably just build it to work like the current DSLR form factor anyway. I know what you’re gonna say—but having the choice to build it would be innovative—and I also disagree; in these times of camera design, I feel like being able to use a solid cinema camera straight out of the box after only attaching a lens is innovation.

If you feel like camera design industry wide is limiting your creativity I’d be curious why that’s the case. I don’t think you’re giving BMD enough credit for the really interesting innovations on display here, but I guess it’s a lot easier to criticize when you haven’t tried it yet (For the record though, neither have I). Either way, I think a lot of people are going to make good work with this thing and I’m excited for those creators to have fun doing it.

HOWEVER, previous experience has shown that with BM it is best to wait and see what the reality is when it is finally out there. As with all cameras usually people find that there are issues and the deflation begins...

So I reserve further judgement until it is actually released and I see the results in the grading suite. I will just be happy to not see FPN, magenta corners, moire, aliasing, black sun's, etc. etc.

Truth man. Gonna be interesting to see what the other shoe is when it drops.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Of course I said that they will sell a boat load. But It could be better and should be better. We all should strive for better. It looks like it's only me... I will remind everyone here when there is all the bitching and moaning about the dim touch screen with finger prints all over, the crappy AF and the anemic battery life... Because there will be bitching and moaning about that once the high of buying the newest and "greatest" fix wears out and the buyer remorse /withdrawals kick in.... The joys of consumerism;-)

When a manufacturer sells a "boatload" of such cameras, even at a lower price they make enough margins and the total profits become huge. That means they can further invest in R&D. Low volume high end players would sooner than later get a hard knock from such smaller players. Remember DJI? with its crappy phantom 1 it sold a dream to millions at some $600 or some such price. My copter had plunged from the air like a missile. Many others had such issues as well. Many of us have DJI and other copter paperweights. However by virtue of the millions of the phantoms and other copters that DJI sold it got into a position of buying Hasselblad and is now an emerging monopoly in certain segments.

We had laughed at the quality or lack of it in BMD's cameras. However, now blackmagic appears to be doing much better than the initial days. It appeals to a certain core constituency who repeatedly buy their products and is also now appealing to many of us as well. I won't be surprised if by 2020 its next iteration of cameras really increases the blood pressure of the other camera manufacturers.

It is good to have many options. We need such camera manufacturers to keep other companies honest. I wish AJA CION had been a bit more successful.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

I have bought one and I'm waiting for September delivery. The two things that worry me about the camera is battery life and aliasing.

I feel pretty confident that someone will make a DSLR-style battery grip and I would probably pick that up. Preferably not just a grip that takes two LP-E6N, but maybe something more like a RAVpower power bank designed to stick into the battery slot and screw in like a normal camera grip. RAVpower is one of many companies that sells these convenient power banks and one size example is their ACE 12000 mAh pack that is smaller than the bottom of the camera and would add less than an inch in height. It costs $19. So that's $19 for the capacity of 6 LP-E6N that would add an inch to the height....

I'm not sure what the catch is here, but whatever it is, it must be solvable. And if a practical solution takes more time, I'll just carry a few extra LP-E6Ns. It's not like they're V-Mounts....

And regarding aliasing, I just can't stand where parts of the image is "moving" (like crawling pixels around diagonal lines) when they shouldn't. But apparently I can expect filters to be sold separately if necessary.

At this point we're all just waiting for the first images to show up. Let's see what they look like.

 

[Savannah Miller]

I have bought one and I'm waiting for September delivery. The two things that worry me about the camera is battery life and aliasing.

I feel pretty confident that someone will make a DSLR-style battery grip and I would probably pick that up. Preferably not just a grip that takes two LP-E6N, but maybe something more like a RAVpower power bank designed to stick into the battery slot and screw in like a normal camera grip. RAVpower is one of many companies that sells these convenient power banks and one size example is their ACE 12000 mAh pack that is smaller than the bottom of the camera and would add less than an inch in height. It costs $19. So that's $19 for the capacity of 6 LP-E6N that would add an inch to the height....

I'm not sure what the catch is here, but whatever it is, it must be solvable. And if a practical solution takes more time, I'll just carry a few extra LP-E6Ns. It's not like they're V-Mounts....

And regarding aliasing, I just can't stand where parts of the image is "moving" (like crawling pixels around diagonal lines) when they shouldn't. But apparently I can expect filters to be sold separately if necessary.

At this point we're all just waiting for the first images to show up. Let's see what they look like.

The catch is dynamic range. In normal usage it looks around 12.5 stops and once you hit 1600+ iso that number drops to 10. If Kinefinity Terra 4K and GH5s are any indication, the dynamic range definitely lacks compared to other sub 10K cameras such as Ursa Mini Pro, FS7, EVA1, C200, etc.

Compared to RED MX sensor it will be maybe marginally worse so it's still respectable numbers.

 

[C. Burkhart]

The catch is dynamic range. In normal usage it looks around 12.5 stops and once you hit 1600+ iso that number drops to 10. If Kinefinity Terra 4K and GH5s are any indication, the dynamic range definitely lacks compared to other sub 10K cameras such as Ursa Mini Pro, FS7, EVA1, C200, etc.

Compared to RED MX sensor it will be maybe marginally worse so it's still respectable numbers.

The issue is not just dynamic range. It is how the optimal distribution of stops works over and under middle grey for this particular camera. A lot of people think you can just drop the exposure until your highlights fall in, but what they dont realize is that if a camera has 7-8 stops under, it only has 5 stops over. Meaning that its sensitivity is just not very well adapted to good highlight rolloff. So a lot of people talk about the pocket as their new walk around camera, but the problem is we just dont know how well it is going to perform in high contrast situations, which in my opinion actually represent the majority of outside circumstances as soon as the sun is out. Remember BM started making "cinema" cameras - meaning cameras meant to be used in very "controlled" lighting circumstances. With a walk around camera the philosophy needs to be different. There needs to be a larger sweet spot - more latitude for error. I fear this may not be the case. It may thus still
be a "cinema" camera in a different form factor. My experience is that an Alexa for instance, loves over exposure, BM cameras less so. Now if we are expecting the pocket to have at least 2 stops less than the UMP, I fear a lot of less experienced individuals are going to make a lot of unrecoverable footage. Get those ND filters ready !

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

The catch is dynamic range.

Not a catch at all in my book. I'm sure it will be fine. To me, it's much more critical that the DR that you get is distributed appropriately, like with BMD Film, and that it doesn't get "crushed" already in camera.

This camera does not compete/replace with cinema cameras. If you can use a box of a camera for your project, or something that needs to be carried on a shoulder, then by all means do that—it's better. And a completely different design target.

This camera competes with the 1Dx mkII and smaller. Mirrorless cameras like GH-series and Sonys on one handed gimbals. iPhone on an Osmo. That type of thing.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

…it only has 5 stops over.

I think I just LOL'ed. Is that what the kids call it? =)

 

[C. Burkhart]

I think I just LOL'ed. Is that what the kids call it? =)

Middle grey is always the reference. Call it whatever you chose. Highlight latitude is much more difficult to achieve than shadow information.

In order for people to properly understand what I am speaking about, take a look at this video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk7ZFx7j8f8


By the way, people ask why I and others still prefer the Alexa to other cams and here is why. It is a very clear illustration of what I see regularly.

Watch what happens at +3, 4 and 5 "stops over". The Alexa is almost completely recoverable to a normal looking image which resembles one made at base exposure, the Ursa Mini's limit is +3, which is largely respectable (they are fans of the BM camera by the way). However, my fear with the pocket 4k, is that with 2 stops less than the ursa, you only really have about 1-1.5 stops of overexposure latitude before the information is gone forever. A bit worrisome for a walk around on the fly camera. Look at what happens to the models skin in the video when this happens. Remember, the sensor small size does not help in recovery detail either.