My Dragon Thoughts

[Liam Hall]

Technological advancement and adaptation are a part of life and career. This industry is built on this concept.

Innovation has led to smaller crews and cheaper gear. One could argue this has led to an undignified race to the bottom in certain sectors of the industry, but it has also broadened the range of jobs that seek a high-end cinematic look and feel without the budget usually necessitated by that form of production. That's a good thing. I spent the first fifteen years of my career only working on film and pretty much only worked on TVCs and music videos. The medium defined the work we did and the budgets we had at our disposal. Digital changed all that, nowadays, I work on anything and everything, large or small. Mainly small, but it is way more dynamic and wide ranging than before.

I can see what impact Dragon will have at the very top of the industry, where you and Christopher work, I'm not so convinced about the impact it will have further down and I worry for all the poor sods who are about to raid their kids' trust funds in the hope that Dragon will deliver them to some elevated position within the industry. I'm not trying to be negative, just trying to offer a little balance. I'm just thankful I rent!

I have to say that of the Dragon footage that I've seen around here, there is certainly a qualitative difference between it and all the other digital cinema cameras.

I agree, though whilst I've seen some stellar footage, I've also seen not so stellar footage from Dragon. The limiting factor is, as it has always been, talent.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Some valid observations here. And yes Dragon won't immediately turn you into the world's greatest filmmaker...it's a tool to do the work you need to do. But I envision some incredible naturalistic images about to grace this site, and on screens around the world very soon.

What is it with Canadians and naturalism? Why would Dragon lend itself more to naturalism than well-lit, non-imporvised, coordinated, old-Hollywood style imagery or even fashion photography? Naturalism will never grace screens around the world because audiences are generally repelled by it. No wonder our country spends my tax dollars making films no one sees here or anywhere. But I digress.

I am actually very excited about shooting Dragon, literally drooling over all these posts, but I can't, because I support a family, decide to spend 9.5 K if it won't give me a cash return of any kind with reasonable probability. I really hope rentals will be good on Dragon, and steer popular favor back to Red, so I can justify the expense of buying the upgrade over renting Dragonized Epics when needed. What I'm saying is yes its' wonderful, but be careful all you young aspiring cinematographers, with what you buy vs rent and when, no matter how sexy the new toy, you can always rent it when you need it, and it might get way cheaper in the meantime.

Someone talked about "showing up with an iPhone" but I showed up this week with a full set of S4 primes and a technocrane. Did I buy those things? Of course not. I rented them for one day using my client's money for the shoot. "If I owned them could I not use fancy fun things like that more often?" Not really. It would still cost less to rent them as needed, even if I had to pay for the rental out of my own pocket and my client refused to pay. It's not just buying that stuff, it's the money you loose over how that money would pay off in other investments (like say a mutual fund, or real-estate) the cost of insurance (which is crazy expensive), the cost of maintenance, place to store it...

The upside to depending on this to make a living is you don't spend half your day making coffees at Starbucks or whatever - at some level then your whole work life is one dream job after another - but the downside is you really have to start thinking of it as a business and make a lot of decisions on those terms. Only a hobbyist can afford to invest in gear "with their heart". As someone who pays the rent and mortgage with this, you can't. So as you make your choice of what to buy vs waiting (and renting the same items to do the same shoots - one Dragon Epic is the same as the next, so it won't change your work at all if you shoot with someone else's rented Dragon or with your own)

You have to decide: do I want to be able to quit that Barista position and never go back? If the answer is yes start being very careful with your money right now.

Put all your passion on set - but turn it off completely when buying tools. Buy tools with your head only (and a calculator, and advice from an accountant), not your heart.

i just watched a friend go almost bankrupt over this - for him gear lust became a terrible addiction: Don't be like him. Go to your local rental house. They have millions worth of toys there that you can use anytime you have a shoot planned, at very reasonable cost. For $1000 you could negotiate renting about $100 000 worth of gear. Don't like something? Just don't rent it again. It's really fun.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Rob makes good points. Now if he could just magically put a decent rental house in decent proximity to where I work and live...

Cheers - #19

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

One of my greatest compliments for some of my films is, 'That doesn't look like a Canadian film." I guess it means overlit, everything on screen in focus, F900/MOW land exposed to F8 or something -to which we're all to familiar on our Pay TV services up here.

My comment about naturalistic has nothing to do with my Canadian-ness, at least not that I'm aware of, unless you mean fantastic images that don't look like they've been manipulated by artificial sources -i.e. the lights we use to get whatever ambience we require to 'light' a particular scene or setting. Naturalistic to me means images from some of the masters like the late Conrad Hall.

And that's my point -one becomes absorbed in the story and appreciate how beautiful the frames look but are not otherwise bothered by the composition within the frame. Some may say time and money cure all to offensive lighting, which is true to a point but I digress...

But Robert you do make a good point about the lust for gear...yes it can be an addiction and we ought to be mindful of it. Just because someone has a Dragon or two and motion mounts doesn't guarantee rentals. We all have to make sound business decisions. Is there enough in our own pipelines to justify the expenditures? For us, thankfully, the answer is yes. And I look forward to capturing some of those performances. 2014 should be a very good year.

 

[paulherrin]

great points about rental rob - makes sense for that market. one question...

who in this thread works at starbucks?

 

[Eric Santiago]

..i just watched a friend go almost bankrupt over this - for him gear lust became a terrible addiction: Don't be like him. Go to your local rental house. They have millions worth of toys there that you can use anytime you have a shoot planned, at very reasonable cost. For $1000 you could negotiate renting about $100 000 worth of gear. Don't like something? Just don't rent it again. It's really fun.

For me owning my own Scarlet gear was the best move I've made.
Where Im located we dont have the luxury like NYC/LA so renting at anytime is very limited.
However we do have a great guy here with two Dragons in waiting
I think for now, i'll cut my teeth on the Scarlet, then rent Dragons in the future

 

[Nick Morrison]

i just watched a friend go almost bankrupt over this - for him gear lust became a terrible addiction: Don't be like him. Go to your local rental house. They have millions worth of toys there that you can use anytime you have a shoot planned, at very reasonable cost. For $1000 you could negotiate renting about $100 000 worth of gear. Don't like something? Just don't rent it again. It's really fun.

I think it depends on your business model. I'm pretty confident I'll be able to pay off my first RED I'm about to purchase in about 6 months. I'm actually considering buying a second now.

For me, owning SMART gear makes me more flexible, and better able to serve my clients. I believe in having a good "in-house" set of everything you need. I can rent the huge stuff. But I like having the "indie" equivalents in house. My jobs are small, and reoccurring, and I like to have a small, light very organized package full of "tricks". I can't predict what clients will want or need on set (and they often rely on my to suggest), but I like to come armed to the teeth, even on small jobs. Hence I roll up with 15 cinemodded Contax Zeis lenses, covering every focal length I'd EVER need, I bring tons of filters, a big light package, overkill for small, beauty interviews, but necessary to keep it "fresh" every time. I work in promo, people get bored easy.

But I agreed. I'd never plunk down $100k for a set of 5 lenses. I'd rather have 4 Dragons. I want more options, not less. Even if some of them are compromised. I know my Contax Zeiss set isn't ideal for big commercial jobs, but it's rare to have a set that covers SO MANY needs that can fit into two tiny 1510's. Which for me is more important.

Horses for courses.

I think you invest WISELY to be creative. And RENT the big stuff that blows out your look. But spending a ton on Rolls Royce level gear when indie versions will suffice...is...I agree...not always wise.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Christopher, as others have mentioned, hearing your high praise for the Dragon carries a lot of weight. Not that other's opinions don't matter, but I do remember your take on the Red One and in a way your warming up to RED seems right in line with how the company has progressed. As Jim has said, they didn't know anything at the beginning (not literally of course) because they jumped in head first and needed to get a camera under their belt. Now we are seeing the results of nearly 10 years of effort, where the cameras are improving quite a bit and the company has evolved as well. I suspect more cinematographers will consider RED as an option moving forward, even the die hard anti-Red crowd. I've never had a problem with DPs who choose a certain camera over another because they believe it is the better choice for their vision for the project. I've always believed one can be a fan of Arri, RED, and Sony without going to extremes. We are currently at a point in time where one has more cinematic tools available to them than at any time in history. Think about how amazing it is that you can choose film, Red, Alexa, F65, F55, Phantom, Blackmagic, DSLRs that shoot RAW video, GoPros, iPhones, and of course hundreds of other digital cameras that capture moving images.

Red will continue to have a special place in my heart because they dared to do what others wouldn't at the time when they launched the Red One. Higher resolution cameras they wanted to get in the hands of people that could never dream of owning something like that because of cost barrier. At the end of the day, I believe they have succeeded and hopefully will continue to be leaders even as other companies join the game.

 

[paulherrin]

+1 - red rocks for getting us here. no question they have changed the game, and i don't think i've ever used that phrase before in my life.

let's just say we've come a long way since...

"scam"

&

"it's not really 4k"

&

"skintones are off"

[how you dudes at red put up with this silliness is beyond my patience level. kudos and karma.]

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Different markets demand different things. As do different business models and how you market yourself. Largely the perspective you share is your own localized one. Even if a production isn't finishing in 4K, there are other advantages, such as VFX considerations.

While I understand that the "mass market" isn't 4K heavy yet, do understand that there's a portion of the market that is. And more is on it's way. Some prefer to be on the early adopter train, some seek out comfort in the tried and true bus route that they take everyday. While I'm mostly a realist, I do have high demands for the work I do in the real world and that is reflected in the footage and format choices I make. However, I come from and work in a world that was primarily Super 35mm based. So that's my own localized experience.

But remember this critical point. From the get go the 1080p standard and 2K in general were born out of compromise from where I come from which in effect trickled down to everywhere. 4K is literally doing the same thing. And the place I come from tends to contain the ones paving the road for the future of visual entertainment and who demand more from their image quality. Technological advancement and adaptation are a part of life and career. This industry is built on this concept.

The place I coem from is very simple (while I hear the value in what you say..) I get paid to deliver client needs. It doesn't really matter what I think is best because that is not was pays the rent here.

There just aren't any 4K clients here at this time - and my "localized"world is new York major, mainstream record labels and ad agencies that we do post for. Name me one music video for any band, no matter how gigantic the artist, that is released in 4K, name me one commercial. There just are not any, not one. And that I can't argue with, even if I wanted to, because maybe 0.0001% of the home audience has a 4K screen. Maybe in two years there will be. Who knows? I;m sure the tools will be cheaper by then, so I'll wait. Meanwhile what I work on has a very short shelf life, so nobody cares about "future proofing" and besides, 1080p looks fine even on a 4K monitor, not super-terrible like SD. Skyfall was mastered/acquired in 2K and looked awesome even on an Imax screen.

Also that said, doing post in a 4K pipeline (like green screen) has many advantages and we make full use of them, but no need for a 4K screen in the suite or a 4K end delivery format.

 

[Phil Holland]

The place I coem from is very simple (while I hear the value in what you say..) I get paid to deliver client needs. It doesn't really matter what I think is best because that is not was pays the rent here.

There just aren't any 4K clients here at this time - and my "localized"world is new York major, mainstream record labels and ad agencies that we do post for. Name me one music video for any band, no matter how gigantic the artist, that is released in 4K, name me one commercial. There just are not any, not one. And that I can't argue with, even if I wanted to, because maybe 0.0001% of the home audience has a 4K screen. Maybe in two years there will be. Who knows? I;m sure the tools will be cheaper by then, so I'll wait. Meanwhile what I work on has a very short shelf life, so nobody cares about "future proofing" and besides, 1080p looks fine even on a 4K monitor, not super-terrible like SD. Skyfall was mastered/acquired in 2K and looked awesome even on an Imax screen.

Also that said, doing post in a 4K pipeline (like green screen) has many advantages and we make full use of them, but no need for a 4K screen in the suite or a 4K end delivery format.

I think Matt Ryan just posted that Muse did a whole live concert thingy in 4K. But, yes I understand the world you're coming from and that's certainly a neighborhood of people doing things fast and as inexpensive as possible.

I'm fully aware that not much of the market is ready for 4K right at this very second. However, this time next year we'll be looking at an entirely different world and I do think that will impact the fields you're in within the next few months even. Heck, the Sony Plastation 4 is coming out on November 15th of this year and will push out 4K motion pictures. As does the upcoming Xbox One. There will be new quality affordable UHD 4K displays real, real soon. We'll be looking at several million 4K screens soon enough.

I agree there's no real need to edit in 4K or 6K, although I do it regularly via 1/4 debayer with audio using the native .R3Ds. But that pipeline isn't great for every type of project. Especially if you're looking at 96TB REDCODE RAW and the editor you're working with doesn't have anything close to that in his suite.

I am a big advocate of 4K on 4K displays though. Even with the fancy up-scaling algorithms now coming out with some UHD 4K displays.

Skyfall did look lovely, but keep in mind that the 4K DCP and IMAX versions were made from 2.8K ARRIRAW converted to DPX and utilized a fairly common up-scaling (rerez and sharpen) algorithm that's used to shoot at 4K on the film recorders utilized. This is actually a common practice in motion pictures when worked on at 2K and filming out for theatrical projection. That is a dirty little secret that I've never really liked actually.

Also, true IMAX material has a much larger resolution than 4K. Those are a joy to watch, but a pain in the butt to shoot.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

both points of view are quite valid,

Future Proofing is a bit of slippery concept. While there is absolutely no reason not to capture in 4K, or 5 of 6K, working with such resolution files at their raw state is highly impractical in most applications. RED offers the opportunity to shoot at a film equivalent resolution, but then to work with the ease of much smaller digital formats. People seem to forget that just because they can monitor their .R3D footage at 1/4 resolution or whatnot, that those files are still the same size of the drives, that is, very, very, very large. And for the most part, data throughput is still the biggest bottleneck we fight with on most situation on most setups. I am a small operator, organized enough not to shoot what I don't need and with enough capacity to hold and work with several hours of .R3D but still, every time a project goes over 300 clips, sometimes less, I revert to using proxies. Having the ability to deliver in 4K when and if needed is indeed a great peace of mind, as is the capacity to revert to raw when performing the grade, but the idea that you need to stay at high resolution/raw state the whole way is, well, incorrect and counterproductive in most cases.

The world Robert is talking about is where the large majority of professional work still takes place. When you turn on your TV and surf through the hundreds of channels, you'll see hundreds of commercials playing, and with a shelf life of a short 2-3 months, you can calculate that there will be thousands, probably tens of thousands, of advertisement pieces playing on a yearly basis over the airwaves, or the copper wire. And the same goes for music videos. That stuff needs to happen fast and it has no future expectancy whatsoever. Now, Phill moves in a different part of this universe, where by his own story/timeline he published on another fascinating thread, he has worked from the very beginning of his career in a world where 4K scans where commonplace even when most professionals had no idea what 4K meant. So, from his own unique perspective of working on the bleeding edge for such a long time where such rarefied work becomes the norm, he must understandably see things in a different way. But in truth, although the move to 4K will be far quicker than the SD to HD transition was, it will still take SEVERAL years until 4K is TRULY commonplace and it becomes a real requirement for most types of work. It may not take 10 years, but it won't be next year either that this will come to pass.

Which does not in any way, of course, negate the many advantages of capturing in as high a resolution, as pristine as possible, a format as you can. But exercising a bit of common sense and restraining oneself from doing things that actually clog up our pipelines and hinder the speed (and thus creativity) with which we can work just because we can does not mean that we should. Oh, and, he/she who cannot grade on an HD (yes, yes, calibrated, 10 bit, running proper LUTs, etc, etc, etc) display, simply cannot grade, period.

 

[paulherrin]

it's only a question of when, guys. i realize that a lot of media that gets made has no 'future expectancy' and honestly probably doesn't hold up to multiple viewings. but there are some great works out there and i don't think are just based on pure luck of the draw. i'm not saying there is a formula or i'd be better off, but i am saying that what most of those kinds of works have in common is an uncommon level of commentary that is thoughtfully intended to be lasting. others just happen to hit a nerve and may not be masterpieces. let's do a quick case study and let's pick a music video. may not be everybodies styles here and remember all of this is based absolutely on MY PERSPECTIVE of what i think is important and valuable - which is going to be totally different from everybody else, we're all different - which is why some things are appreciated in their time and others are not at all or might be later, but i digress - here we go... quickly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwuy4hHO3YQ

^listen to the song and watch - this wasn't pushing technology, ideas, etc. and understood even at the time as a landmark? i'm still studying this work and so are others.

now, let's look at right now. fall out boy is halfway through a narrative series with their return to music. they are very knowledgeable about music history, etc. they know what they're doing, and they're not just doing it for this moment, they're trying to do something within our culture that's lasting - and i believe this stuff will and should be looked at well into the time that 4k is around - and of course it's ridiculous to say that resolution is the most important thing about what's going on... let's keep that in mind. but the point is we are in a moment of history and we need to prepare and there's simply no reason to be in denial. if you're just working on a small part of stuff you may never know or care if it's quality or not, especially if you don't pay attention to or care about context/subtext in relation to art and human history, among other markers in culture. art isn't just about commerce, that's been a weird development. it's not about making a killing (for execs) or a living (for slav- i mean, artists), it's about participating in a conversation that's been going on, i dunno, forever. anyways, listen to the music and watch - are these not meant as markers of a cultural scene?

https://myspace.com/falloutboy/music/album/save-rock-and-roll-19047301
^full album right here - for free. not saying these guys aren't making money, but they're absolutely not in it for that at all. ook at this and this if you think otherwise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkIWmsP3c_s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hDZbroaQDc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZvHkOAtUYQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFhEBmNwX_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGPAv1Hq2-g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSfKSUd31MM

don't bother reading/skimming any further if you're not going to watch that stuff, listen to it, and think about it just a bit before you respond.

the point here is - we should do our best at whatever we're doing to give the best quality, because really... wtf do we really know about the future? what you're working on today could turn out to be very important tomorrow - even if that's not intended or expected. everything that happens changes the world. that's life. i'm going to do it the best i'm able. anybody that wants monopoly money should choose a different industry, i'm not being mean, i'm giving you solid financial advice. don't be an artist.

details MATTER. textures are IMPORTANT. small fluctuations in light and color CHANGE THE BRAIN. it's all subtle... welcome to the world of art.

 

[David Kudell]

The 4K debate is downright old at this point, it's already happening. But it's not even about whether or not you need to finish in 4K...it's about spending money on a camera system that handles 4K. Redusers are covered for many years in the future with their equipment, while 2K camera owners are going to be shelling out more money in the near future.

 

[Christopher Probst]

Taking the Dragon out for a walk... Starting in LA shooting Kobe Bryant on stage... Off to Turkey to shoot plates and exteriors... with a meet up with Kemalettin... and now in Barcelona to shoot Messi!

Joseph Kahn and I in center of my Turkish camera crew and Kemalettin on the left...

 

[Matt Ryan]

Christopher,

Now that you've shot a bit more with Dragon, what is your opinion? What are you finding out now that you couldn't have known without using it thus far? What are your thoughts on the 16.5+ stops of DR and what ISO level are you comfortable pushing it to if need be?

Thanks for your time!

 

[Tom Van]

Taking the Dragon out for a walk... Starting in LA shooting Kobe Bryant on stage... Off to Turkey to shoot plates and exteriors... with a meet up with Kemalettin... and now in Barcelona to shoot Messi!

I hate you so bad... #SETLIFE

 

[Nick Morrison]

I hate you so bad... #SETLIFE

Haha. Totally agree. Hey, Christopher gives us all something to shoot for. On and up!!!

 

[paulherrin]

well, i have to say... at least you skimmed to the important part and didn't waste anyone's time, including your own. success.

:crazy:

for future reference, anyone that wishes to make personal comments please feel free to message me privately or shoot me an email... no need for trolling. sorry if i contributed to the thread-jacking and i hope i haven't offended anyone else by trying to prove my points passionately and sharing my philosophies freely. would still love to hear thoughtful counter-arguments... nothing better for the brain than proving its ideas wrong.

 

[paulherrin]

chris - any particular reason you chose bluescreen with the dragon? guessing it just had to do with that grass. in any case, do i even need to ask if it was a good experience? have you pulled a key or talked to the compositor about it?

and do you have to use the high speed mags for dragon, or just higher resolutions, or just when you want those extra datarates?

thanks again for sharing your experience.