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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Movie-Camera Maker Red Accuses Rival Arri of Corporate Espionage

Jay Birch said:
It's an interesting point. Much like the hacking scandal in UK, "News of the World" were one subsidiary of News Corp. Can you tar the whole corporation with the same brush?
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Yes, you should. That is until the entire management bench has resigned, been forced out, and replaced. They are responsible - across the board.
 
Emanuel A. said:
Jay,

It depends on the criminal responsability of the deeds imputed to the authors. But, if they are not responsible strictly under the point of view of criminal jurisdiction, they can be under the civil angle anyway. Until to fulfill their participation on the subsidiary corporation or entity (if it is not the case of a corporation, an individual for example). There's also a subsidiary civil responsability beyond the criminal domain.

Saudações para a terra Natal se é o caso de estares em Portugal (Algarve?)

Emanuel :-)
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yea, it get's confusing... I think though that REDusers should wait and watch, rather than hate on the whole ARRI company (just my point of view)

obrigado amigo, tu tambem.... sim, eu vivo em Portimao (algarve) mas este mes, vou trabalhar em londres
 
Jeff Coatney said:
Yes, you should. That is until the entire management bench has resigned, been forced out, and replaced. They are responsible - across the board.
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So News Corp should be completely taken apart, because one subsidiary was mismanaged? What of the other subsidiaries that clearly have nothing to do with it?

Should I stop watching Fox because a UK newspaper acted wrongly?

If it is proven that the phone hacking went right to the very top, then I would agree that drastic measures would have to be taken.... but, as of now, it hasn't.

Anyway, I do not know enough about this to get involved.... I wont be making any judgement on ARRI (parent company) until the dust has settled.
 
Jeff Coatney said:
Can you imagine choosing to shoot with an Alexa only to be ordered by the court to cease and desist halfway through your shoot? That would suck.
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Or even worse imagine if aliens came in and shot it with a death ray! How inconvenient!
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
Gavin,

you could be probably right at the most points you've wrote

but also about "special insider information" that Arri have got (from Bravin) could help them fast and easy to react and spread Alexa to the maker segments that was still not covered by Epic during that 6 to 8 months period.

I think that was a crucial thing that Arri thanks to that "special insider information" combined to its old film connections and influence established Alexa as a sort of hype, desirable digital camera chick and cinematographer friendly digital cinema camera system.

And potentially to illustrate and give you an idea what I'm talking about could be found at Indiewire 2012 Oscar Predictions:

Best Cinematography

1. The Artist- Panavision Film cameras
2. The Tree of Life -Arri Film cameras
3. War Horse- Panavision Panaflex Film cameras
4. Hugo - Arri Alexa
5. Moneyball - Panavision Panaflex Film cameras
6. Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy Arri Alexa
7. The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo - RED ONE MX and Epic -M
8. Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close - Arri Alexa
9. Melancholia - Arri Alexa
10. We Need To Talk About Kevin - Panavision Film cameras and Canon 5D

Movies shot on film cameras have got 5 predictions, 5 movies on Arri Alexa have got predictions and only one prediction for the movie shot on RED ONE MX and Epic -M.

Source>>>

That's all.
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-tinker tailor soldier spy was shot on panavision panaflex not alexa.

-tree of life has scenes shot with REd MX
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Or even worse imagine if aliens came in and shot it with a death ray! How inconvenient!
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Funny, I should've mentioned this earlier. Thomas Edison regularly sent snipers to film sets that smuggled international motion picture cameras into the United States. Renegade producers who refused to work under his "enforcement agency" had their cameras shot at on set; crews would cover European cameras with blankets to hide them from Edison thugs.

Jay Birch said:
yea, it get's confusing... I think though that REDusers should wait and watch, rather than hate on the whole ARRI company (just my point of view)
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+ 1 x 10[SUP]12
[/SUP]
 
Peter Dmitriyev said:
-tinker tailor soldier spy was shot on panavision panaflex not alexa.

-tree of life has scenes shot with REd MX
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Corrected!!!

You are right for Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy but also we learned that no any RED MX shots appeared at the end in Tree of Life.

Also Terry Terrence Malick Malick shot his latest project Lawless on Alexa.
 
Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy was shot on 35mm and processed in a 4K pipeline.
 
Jeff Coatney said:
Yes, you should. That is until the entire management bench has resigned, been forced out, and replaced. They are responsible - across the board.
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Again, I don't think we know enough facts about the case to say who knew what and when they knew it. I suspect a lot will come out in the trial, which could take years and years to wind through the courts. There have been much bigger cases that literally took 10 years to actually get to trial.

Stephen Webb said:
Arri, Inc is not "Arri". Arri, Inc did not develop the Alexa. I can see why you would be upset at Arri, Inc but (Like Arri Media and Arri Lighting here in the UK) they are a separate entity from the camera manufacturer. If Arri, Inc were passing the info they got from your e-mails to Arri in Germany then I'd agree that "Arri" had some explaining to do. But you don't seem to be claiming this, either in your suit or on here.
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I'm sure it will come out during the discovery process as to how much the Munich office knew about the emails being read in LA. I think the trick will be how to assess damages, and from what little I know about the legal process, that's not necessarily simple. If Red's legal team finds a smoking gun, Arri could be held liable and -- in theory -- Red could get an injunction against competing products. But that's a big stretch. Usually, that kind of thing only happens in outright patent theft and stuff like that.

My gut feeling is that Arri will try to settle and pay a big chunk of money to make it all go away. But this may not be an option Red wants to accept.
 
Well I have to say, reading the PDF of the court filing was interesing reading.

I've also found that looking at Google's cache of "Ed Carlton's" posts on reduser.net (since deleted on this forum) are quite interesting, and paint Mr. Bravin in an evenmore interesting light.

http://www.google.com/#q=site:reduser.net+"ed+carlton"&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1095&bih=1289&fp=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&cad=b

You have to click on the arrows to the right of each result to see Google's cached version of the post.

-sc
 
I think this is a legal matter from now on and no need for further discussion...We believe Red will win against these people by law and by their technology...We wish them a fantastic happy new year and waiting for their game changing strategies....Jannard and his team are setting the standards in the industry and Red will be a major player in 4k market ...
 
Michael Panfeld said:
Indeed, akin to The Social Network. The real question is whether it will be shot on the Epic or the Alexa ;)

But seriously, this is some really nasty stuff. If proven, I hope Red takes Arri to the cleaners.
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They would start off on alexa, then the arri engineers would accidentally hot swap one of their own cables damaging the cameras.

Then they would slap themselves on the head wondering why they are filming a feature film on HD and didn't pick Red to begin with...
 
Matt Steinauer said:
Gavin. I really don't understand anything you're saying. Really. Anything.
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My apologies that the educational system failed you. ;)

I'll do my best to help make up some lost time.



- "Can you imagine choosing to shoot with an Alexa only to be ordered by the court to cease and desist halfway through your shoot? That would suck."

This statement is what we call "absurd" because there is no legal situation where a purchased product would be recalled by the government leaving you without a camera because a marketing executive read someone else's emails.

Which brings us to my response:
- "Or even worse imagine if aliens came in and shot it with a death ray! How inconvenient!"

This is called "sarcasm" it's often considered a form of "irony". In this instance an absurd situation is used to highlight the absurdity of an equally ridiculous and improbable scenario (your camera being taken away from a shoot).

Let me know if you need any help working through any other posts! Glad to help!
 
Jonas Rejman said:
The things that happened on the "Hansel And Gretel" shoot is very, very bad.
This is not the first time I hear about certain rough practices at ARRI.
But its something entirely different, having it black on white.
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Uh this one is so highly interesting. I was dealing with ARRI Post Berlin at the time and I heard rumors of a Alexa vs. RED shootout. That was at a time when the Alexa didn´t have RAW yet enabled (I was VFX Supervising one of the first German Feature Films Shoot on Alexa just a month before). The Arri people where very proud that in the end the Alexa won the shootout but it was strange cause the shootout went well into production - I knew this cause I worked literally across the street from the Soundstage. Then I briefly talked to a technician and he told me there was a fault on the RED camera "as per usual" and thats why the production choose the "more robust" Alexa in the end - that was a half year later when I went on a new production with a RED One MX - rented from Arri - again with a faulty monitor cable that send one of the two cameras straight to heaven :(

This sheds some light on all this :O I wondered all along why a Hollywood production would choose a 1080p camera (thats what it was at that time - not even 2k).
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
My apologies that the educational system failed you. ;)

I'll do my best to help make up some lost time.



- "Can you imagine choosing to shoot with an Alexa only to be ordered by the court to cease and desist halfway through your shoot? That would suck."

This statement is what we call "absurd" because there is no legal situation where a purchased product would be recalled by the government leaving you without a camera because a marketing executive read someone else's emails.

Which brings us to my response:
- "Or even worse imagine if aliens came in and shot it with a death ray! How inconvenient!"

This is called "sarcasm" it's often considered a form of "irony". In this instance an absurd situation is used to highlight the absurdity of an equally ridiculous and improbable scenario (your camera being taken away from a shoot).

Let me know if you need any help working through any other posts! Glad to help!
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Priceless....makes me want to watch Monty Python.

;)
 
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