Movie-Camera Maker Red Accuses Rival Arri of Corporate Espionage

[Vance Colvig]

Would have been interesting to have been a fly on the wall when the villain had his private talks with Arri before his employment by them and while he was working for Band Pro gladly accepting his pay check. Unfortunately greed and low moral character seem to be evermore popular in big business these days. When the ends justify the means in either business or politics, we are in big trouble as a society. Although 2 years probation seems light, by the time this gets resolved in court, this worm probably won't have a pot to piss in and couldn't even get a job as a greeter at Wallmart. Would like to be a fly on the wall at Arri in Munich right now.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

"disgorgement" seems to be key here.

Any time that a CEO's email is hacked, there is potential for the dissemination of sensitive and potentially damaging information to have occurred. RED really has an unfortunate obligation to its own corporation to get to the bottom of how much, if any, damage might have been inflicted.

It's a certainty that Bravin wasn't bothering to forward Jim Jannard's "Make it a great day, Amnon!" emails to Arri executives. He was making hay with top officials at his company, over a period of six months. That is not the casual gesture of a renegade hacker, casual snooper, or a curiosity seeker -- it's systematic espionage. Those emails had to have some kind of meaningful or sensitive content for him to take this level of risk.

Corporate spies don't run around in Snidely Whiplash mustaches and tuxedoes - they're nice guys who are knowledgeable in their field, with broad technical knowledge, who like to share the fruits of their expertise.

But their actions are compromising the level playing field of competition. Even worse, to some degree, they are betraying the employees of their own company - betraying their own employees' right to make an honest dollar with their hard work and their labor...possibly and ultimately destroying their livelihoods, if it goes that far. We don't know.

Really, the only way for RED to know the extent of the damage, if any, is to file this lawsuit. At the very least, RED needs to know exactly what happened and its impact on their company...it's not as if either Michael Bravin or Arri are going to volunteer or willingly share this information. It's part of the process of discovery, and RED's only recourse to accessing the fullest truth of what happened.

It will be very interesting to see how Arri pushes back.

Bearing in mind that RED has had its corporate HQ broken into, its first publicly distributed EPIC-M stolen under very unusual circumstances, and now this...I think it is time for RED to put up the dukes a little bit and say, "no more."

 

[Erik Franzén]

At least they didn't screw up as badly as Ocean Marketing did!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Whoa. That's heavy stuff.

I'm trying to understand what would drive someone to do that. Greed? Or something deeper like envy? It's none of our business, but I think you have to be pretty f'ed up inside to do shit like that... imho. Totally reprehensible.

It's certainly dishonest, illegal and disreputable but I just don't see the greed or envy motivation. The most likely motivation for logging into an Ex-Boss's email is probably the same as the most likely for motivation for logging into an ex-girlfriend/boyfriend's email: to see what they're saying about *YOU*. The challenge is for RED to establish that Bravin *read* and used information in private emails related to RED camera and their employees. If you log into an ex's email account to see if they're talking shit about you and your ex happens to have emails related to business it doesn't mean you've commited corporate espionage. And the volume of emails doesn't strike me as odd. If you log into a Pop3 account with default settings it'll often download the last couple months of emails automatically. If the average person sends/receives about 150 emails a day (probably more for a CEO) then 7,000 emails is about a month's worth of emails.

It seems like the contents of those emails to other Arri emloyees will be the center of the case. I just can't imagine though what information from December to February could have come up on Epic to help Arri market the Alexa. The Alexa was practically done. The Epic was practically done at that point. The marketing was obvious to the entire planet and needed no special insider information to know you sell the alexa by 1) Downplaying the resolution advantage 2) Playing up image quality of Alexa. That's exactly what Arri did. And that's exactly what every other RED competitor has done too.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

I just can't imagine though what information from December to February could have come up on Epic to help Arri market the Alexa. The Alexa was practically done. The Epic was practically done at that point. The marketing was obvious to the entire planet and needed no special insider information to know you sell the alexa by 1) Downplaying the resolution advantage 2) Playing up image quality of Alexa. That's exactly what Arri did. And that's exactly what every other RED competitor has done too.

Gavin,

you could be probably right at the most points you've wrote

but also about "special insider information" that Arri have got (from Bravin) could help them fast and easy to react and spread Alexa to the maker segments that was still not covered by Epic during that 6 to 8 months period.

I think that was a crucial thing that Arri thanks to that "special insider information" combined to its old film connections and influence established Alexa as a sort of hype, desirable digital camera chick and cinematographer friendly digital cinema camera system.

And potentially to illustrate and give you an idea what I'm talking about could be found at Indiewire 2012 Oscar Predictions:

Best Cinematography

1. The Artist- Panavision Film cameras
2. The Tree of Life -Arri Film cameras
3. War Horse- Panavision Panaflex Film cameras
4. Hugo - Arri Alexa
5. Moneyball - Panavision Panaflex Film cameras
6. Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy - Panavision Film cameras
7. The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo - RED ONE MX and Epic -M
8. Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close - Arri Alexa
9. Melancholia - Arri Alexa
10. We Need To Talk About Kevin - Panavision Film cameras and Canon 5D

Movies shot on film cameras have got 6 predictions, 3 movies on Arri Alexa have got predictions and only one prediction for the movie shot on RED ONE MX and Epic -M.

Source>>>

That's all.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Who would bash a camera on set?

"Professionals" acting like amateurs.

I've seen it happen.

Once.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

The challenge is for RED to establish that Bravin *read* and used information in private emails related to RED camera and their employees.

True, but they have no way of wholly ascertaining these facts without filing the lawsuit - now that Bravin has pled guilty, "disgorgement" will wash more details onto the shore. Moreover, right now RED is really the only party in the position to ascertain the value of the information those emails contained. As transparent as RED has been until recently, there's a lot we don't know about how they are positioning themselves in a variety of competitive markets. Making cameras is the cornerstone of what is in the process of becoming a larger empire (c'mon RedRay!) That RED was in talks to acquire Band Pro, a major reseller of competitors' products, is powerful stuff. No doubt there's more than meets the eye.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Gavin,

you could be probably right at the most points you've wrote

but also about "special insider information" that Arri have got (from Bravin) could help them fast and easy to react and spread Alexa to the maker segments that was still not covered by Epic during that 6 to 8 months period.

I think that was a crucial thing that Arri thanks to that "special insider information" combined to its old film connections and influence established Alexa as a sort of hype, desirable digital camera chick and cinematographer friendly digital cinema camera system.

And potentially to give you an idea what I'm talking about could be found at Indiewire 2012 Oscar Predictions:

Best Cinematography

1. The Artist- Panavision Film cameras
2. The Tree of Life -Arri Film cameras
3. War Horse- Panavision Panaflex Film cameras
4. Hugo - Arri Alexa
5. Moneyball - Panavision Panaflex Film cameras
6. Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy Arri Alexa
7. The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo - RED ONE MX and Epic -M
8. Extremely Loud and Incredibly Close - Arri Alexa
9. Melancholia - Arri Alexa
10. We Need To Talk About Kevin - Panavision Film cameras and Canon 5D

Movies shot on film cameras have got 5 predictions, 5 movies on Arri Alexa have got predictions and only one prediction for the movie shot on RED ONE MX and Epic -M.

Source>>>

That's all.

Sanjin,

Not bad seen at all... I agree with you. Jim can claim whatever he wants once there was unscrupulous and disruptive tactics over here.

Unfair advantage (to take position) by a competitor with results well seen and felt in the RED's pockets.

Ours too. Any damage to RED can also reach us even indirectly. The same for Jim's success. Our luck and choice as his customers.

E

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Making cameras is the cornerstone of what is in the process of becoming a larger empire (c'mon RedRay!) That RED was in talks to acquire Band Pro, a major reseller of competitors' products, is powerful stuff. No doubt there's more than meets the eye.

Ummm all that the lawsuit said was that they were discussing strategic partnerships. I read nothing about acquisition. And again... I would imagine those discussions had been going on for months on reselling/support contracts during which Bravin was still a key employee of Band Pro. So no reason to hack an email to learn about that. You're absolutely right that RED has to file in order to get the legal information to condemn or clear Arri... I just suspect they aren't going to find anything in their investigation. If this was a movie in which they were guilty I would say it was riddled with plot holes and poorly written characters whose motivations made no sense. I believe in conspiracy theories. I just don't believe in conspiracy theories in which none of the conspirators profit. And I just can't see how Arri would profit from this. Which ultimately is good news for RED, Arri, Bravin and us the customers. The best outcome of a trial is to discover nobody was hurt. We should all hope that RED's suspicions are just that.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Ummm all that the lawsuit said was that they were discussing strategic partnerships. I read nothing about acquisition. And again... I would imagine those discussions had been going on for months on reselling/support contracts during which Bravin was still a key employee of Band Pro. So no reason to hack an email to learn about that. You're absolutely right that RED has to file in order to get the legal information to condemn or clear Arri... I just suspect they aren't going to find anything in their investigation. If this was a movie in which they were guilty I would say it was riddled with plot holes and poorly written characters whose motivations made no sense. I believe in conspiracy theories. I just don't believe in conspiracy theories in which none of the conspirators profit. And I just can't see how Arri would profit from this. Which ultimately is good news for RED, Arri, Bravin and us the customers. The best outcome of a trial is to discover nobody was hurt. We should all hope that RED's suspicions are just that.

Gavin,

sometimes the information of a detail is enough for giving solid advantage over a competitor.

I'll give you an example. I know of a recent case of an employer who knew how much a competitor would be paying for a key employee to be hired. The contract ended to be signed but not with the primary party. Back door help.

Moreover, we know nothing about the content of those emails. But one of them could be enough to give to ARRI an unfair position over the competitor.

And we know ARRI was aware of some previous reprehensible behaviour of Mr. Bravin:

http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/12/23/RedCam.pdf

As well, if it is true that they denied when the first news came to light as even I reproduced them in these boards, but there were emails to be forwarded among them, I guess this speaks by itself.

To play the devil's advocate here, or to give them the presumption of innocence until the jury rules out, is to play the foul part in this case IMO (granted what it comes described in that document, a legal submission BTW, not a mere thread's entry posted somewhere over the rainbow). I simply don't want to be there. As simple as that.

E

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

[off topic]

At least they didn't screw up as badly as Ocean Marketing did!

Please remove me from this mailing list

EPIC

[/off topic]

 

[Mark Toia]

In one way or another, Jim, you will own Arri some day. ;-)

Now that would be funny!
Then Jim can charge 4x as much... for 1/4 the resolution... hehehehheee..

 

[Terry VerHaar]

... The challenge is for RED to establish that Bravin *read* and used information in private emails related to RED camera and their employees. ...

Gavin, obviously you are very eager to believe the best in people; Michael Bravin, in this case. That is admirable, but I don't think it is going to fall upon RED to prove to some level of "absolute" that these emails were actually read and "used." The mere fact that so many were accessed and some information was shared and perhaps acted upon is probably somewhat de facto proof that RED was wronged.

I think it would be hard for Mr. Bravin, Arri, et all to say "Yes, we had all the emails but we didn't read them... really!!" or "Yes, we had all these facts and information about RED, but it didn't effect our actions one bit." If they actually accessed all this information, I'd say things don't look good for them in defending themselves. Just my two cents.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

+ 1 - Gavin, you are obviously a big fan of Red, no one would accuse you of taking Arri's side, and you're right - innocent until proven guilty, but come on -- you have no idea the extent of the content to which Bravin was privy to. What if Jim's emails had been discussing the exact product roadmap for the next 12-24 months? Or specs of upcoming Scarlet that everyone was wondering about? And on and on -- this is not a significant competitive advantage??? Come on!

And seriously, when you read that doc, it's frequently alleged that Arri knew of his activities and in fact sanctioned them. That is HUGE and makes Arri massively liable in whatever information was obtained.

I too don't know exactly what was obtained, and I wonder how this will all be proven -- especially if Bavin was smart and perhaps "cut and pasted" sending hacked email content from other IPs and accounts that were not his own. Will or were all Arri's servers be subpoena'd? They sure have had time to erase traces of activities by this point... but who knows. The repeated allegations that others at Arri knew/sanctioned his activities implies there is evidence to corroborate this.

All in all, this is sad. But IF (notice I said "if") they are guilty to the extent that's stated in that court document, I hope the penalties are far in excess of what numbers are listed thus far... in other words, that Red receives millions back and it's made known to the entire industry what Arri sanctioned/did here.

Hopefully justice will be served.....

Gavin, obviously you are very eager to believe the best in people; Michael Bravin, in this case. That is admirable, but I don't think it is going to fall upon RED to prove to some level of "absolute" that these emails were actually read and "used." The mere fact that so many were accessed and some information was shared and perhaps acted upon is probably somewhat de facto proof that RED was wronged.

I think it would be hard for Mr. Bravin, Arri, et all to say "Yes, we had all the emails but we didn't read them... really!!" or "Yes, we had all these facts and information about RED, but it didn't effect our actions one bit." If they actually accessed all this information, I'd say things don't look good for them in defending themselves. Just my two cents.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I think it would be hard for Mr. Bravin, Arri, et all to say "Yes, we had all the emails but we didn't read them... really!!" or "Yes, we had all these facts and information about RED, but it didn't effect our actions one bit." If they actually accessed all this information, I'd say things don't look good for them in defending themselves. Just my two cents.

I suspect it's already known whether or not upper Arri management in Munich received copies of the emails. To me, based on what's in the complaint, Red will win the lawsuit just based on this alone; the only question is how much punitive damages they're going to get.

 

[Peter Plevritis]

Unfortunately distracting. Unfortunately necessary.

Sometimes there are fights you have to fight.

Companies I've dealt with have their tone set very high up in the chain. If the tone is set to allow or look the other way, this can give people with the potential of this type of behavior encouragement.

While not exactly the same story... but back in 2006 some genius who had access to Coke's 'secret' formula contacted Pepsi to sell it to them. Pepsi immediately contacted Coke. Coke contacted the FBI.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06188/704045-28.stm

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Gavin, obviously you are very eager to believe the best in people.

Quite the opposite. I believe the worst in people. I believe they act in self-interested, emotional and often with self-righteous motivations. I think people would backstab their mother for a buck. What I find it less likely they'll pay a buck to backstab their mother haha. One wrongdoing does not make two either. Reading your boss's email does not make you a murderer, or a spy or any number of things. I have absolutely no problem imagining a disgruntled ex employee snooping on an employer, it's almost cliche. Remember, Bravin is in marketing and sales. His job is to sell existing product. Knowing what's in the pipeline... not really useful. And again everyone knows what's in the pipeline: Smaller, More Dynamic range, More Resolution -> Lightfield and Exotic imagers -> 3D Scanners/Virtual cinematography -> Holodecks.

 

[Evan Starkey]

Pepsi immediately contacted Coke. Coke contacted the FBI.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06188/704045-28.stm

Yep i cant get passed why Arri didn't do this......as for the rest i can only guess

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Sanjin,

Not bad seen at all... I agree with you. Jim can claim whatever he wants once there was unscrupulous and disruptive tactics over here.

Unfair advantage (to take position) by a competitor with results well seen and felt in the RED's pockets.

Ours too. Any damage to RED can also reach us even indirectly. The same for Jim's success. Our luck and choice as his customers.

E

Emanuel,

you are absolutely right but

we still have to see who are the winners and losers soon at the California Central District Court in Santa Ana and at the Kodak Theatre in Hollywood.

Always should count on a possible effect of the two sides of reality...

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Ummm all that the lawsuit said was that they were discussing strategic partnerships. I read nothing about acquisition. And again... I would imagine those discussions had been going on for months on reselling/support contracts during which Bravin was still a key employee of Band Pro. So no reason to hack an email to learn about that.

Go back and read the filing, Gavin, it sounds as if you missed this section - p. 26. 15. 116-120 - it's actually one of the most striking bits of the filing, and it states it pretty clearly that the possibility of an acquisition was on the table. The word "acquisition" is used several times and stated quite clearly ("RED was considering acquiring Band Pro")...granted, "acquisition" can mean many things, wholes or parts of businesses, more things we don't know. Only RED knows and only RED is positioned to evaluate the extent of lost opportunities right now.

I agree that the extent of what happened is not clear...still, it's hard to characterize hacking a CEO's email in a highly competitive business environment as "nothing," especially with the possibility of an acquisition as part of the stakes. But we have no way to gauge exactly what it means or how deeply the consequences run. Time will tell, and only one thing is for certain - more facts will unfold in due course....

The Arri executives had to know that they were exposing their company by accepting this information and taking no action to stop it, as Peter points out. They knew where all of this material was originating and did nothing, in the best-case scenario and who knows, in the worst case scenario. That's a real sticking point, either way.