More SSD questions $$$$$

[Greg M]

OK.

Basically, it's about 2.5K more to get involved with SSD and it is not a good idea to stay with CF as it is (for all intents and purposes) EOL.

David

This isnt required...you can always stick with your Red Drives from your Red One if you dont want to spend an extra $2500

 

[David Battistella]

This isnt required...you can always stick with your Red Drives from your Red One if you dont want to spend an extra $2500

Yes,

But I think those are EOL as well.

David

 

[D Fuller]

Agree. This is true for still frames.

Part of what is nice about these discussions is that a good idea emerged here:

Consider making a CINEMA drive that will cover 90% of shooting situations that will be lower cost. Many users might go for that.


david

Yes, David, I agree that's an idea worth exploring. I should think that for people doing narrative work especially (or exclusively) that would be a worthwhile option.

Most of my work is in commercials, and the demand for stills to be shot during the same shoots is increasing all the time. For a whole list of reasons it doesn't work very well to do both with the R1 at this point, so it's much easier to have a Nikon standing by. But I'm hopeful that the Epic DSMC's ability to change modes with just a switch, combined with the form factor, will make that work in a way that is more practical for delivering both. For these situations, it doesn't seem like a good idea for the media to limit the codec.

 

[David Battistella]

David,

Check out the video that Tonaci Tran did with TED. You will see that it's literally a flip of a switch to go between STILLS and MOTION mode. So extracting stills from motion with EPCI is less critical than it is with the R1 because EPIC has a full stills mode (the DSLR part of EPIC).

1/48th and the motion blur with motion isn't the most desirable way to grab stills and being able to switch instantly (between shots) to stills mode is MASSIVE thing.

David

 

[Deanan]

We all support what RED is doing, but there has to be some push back.
David

We respond well to feedback. Push back is something else...

The SSDs are priced $250 less than the equivalent 4x 16GB cards and are 3-4x faster for write speeds as well as faster for offloading.

 

[M Most]

We respond well to feedback. Push back is something else...

The SSDs are priced $250 less than the equivalent 4x 16GB cards and are 3-4x faster for write speeds as well as faster for offloading.

While that is, of course, true, there are some other factors:

1. You're getting 4x the capacity, but on many productions, you don't need 4x the capacity because in order to move through a production day without incurring a backlog for file backups, you tend to keep file loads to a comfortable size - say, about 20 minutes per card. So in effect, you're paying 3.5x more for capacity that you may not use.

2. The additional capacity is clearly aimed at accommodating higher data rates for the planned lower compression ratios. On many productions, this won't be used.

3. The SSD's are indeed faster to offload, but that doesn't really change the need to keep each load manageable in order to keep backup operations moving and not take chances on potential lost data. A production will likely need to carry just as many SSD's as they do CF cards today despite the larger capacity.

4. People should understand that tech isn't free. Sometimes it isn't cheap, either. Developing and deploying new things costs money, even if it is based on commodity technology. The need to have faster write speeds and higher capacity for larger frame sizes and lower compression ratios seems to me to be the driver behind the switch to SSD's. Justifying the additional cost of doing this shouldn't be necessary.

 

[Elsie N]

1. You're getting 4x the capacity, but on many productions, you don't need 4x the capacity because in order to move through a production day without incurring a backlog for file backups, you tend to keep file loads to a comfortable size - say, about 20 minutes per card. So in effect, you're paying 3.5x more for capacity that you may not use.

In these cases, can't you just use 16 GB CF cards? Let's a user cut his cost of media down to the one-quarter segments that are apparently enough for some who do not plan to use the higher data rate shooting.

 

[ericyoung]

In these cases, can't you just use 16 GB CF cards? Let's a user cut his cost of media down to the one-quarter segments that are apparently enough for some who do not plan to use the higher data rate shooting.

You might be able to, but having larger capacities means you have more flexibility in exactly when to swap to avoid repeat takes or missing important moments.

 

[Elsie N]

You might be able to, but having larger capacities means you have more flexibility in exactly when to swap to avoid repeat takes or missing important moments.

I agree completely. Just suggesting a way to get around the argument that 64 GB SSDs are overkill both in price and capacity. Personally, I'm wanting bigger... not smaller capacities.

 

[David Battistella]

We respond well to feedback. Push back is something else...

OK.

So I am somehow being negative by starting this discussion? Just want to make sure I am reading this right.

You are responding as though pushback is a negative thing.

The SSDs are priced $250 less than the equivalent 4x 16GB cards and are 3-4x faster for write speeds as well as faster for offloading.

I have never disagreed that SSD is the way to go. Did I?

 

[Michael Hastings]

Snips...

IE:

Stage 2
EPIC reader ------- 1500
I believe it is fair to have a decent idea of what the extras will be and I appreciate you clarifying some of the costs.

.... I seriously don't even remember what the stage two EPIC is anymore. David

Where has it been finalized that there would a charge for the epics ssd side module? It was my understanding that the ssd is the standard and CF module is no more (except as a future option - think still shooters with lots of cfs), and that Jim hasn't decided if or what the add'l charge would be. If you look at the red station modules both cf and ssd are $250 so add'l hardware cost should be minimal and presumable no more than $250 at most since the entire separate ssd unit is $250 retail - the side plate is otherwise essentially the same with the LCD connectors, rec switch, etc. so once you decide to go in that direction in volume costs should be almost the same.

 

[David Battistella]

Where has it been finalized that there would a charge for the epics ssd side module? It was my understanding that the ssd is the standard and CF module is no more (except as a future option - think still shooters with lots of cfs), and that Jim hasn't decided if or what the add'l charge would be. If you look at the red station modules both cf and ssd are $250 so add'l hardware cost should be minimal and presumable no more than $250 at most since the entire separate ssd unit is $250 retail - the side plate is otherwise essentially the same with the LCD connectors, rec switch, etc. so once you decide to go in that direction in volume costs should be almost the same.

Thanks for clearing this up Michael.

I had no idea that there would be no additional charge and that the SSD just replaces the CF and all we need to be concerned with is the cost of media.

If this is correct then I have learned something.

David

 

[Michael Hastings]

Thanks for clearing this up Michael.

I had no idea that there would be no additional charge and that the SSD just replaces the CF and all we need to be concerned with is the cost of media.
If this is correct then I have learned something.
David

To be clear, all that seems definite is that SSD rather than CF is the standard.

Not quite so definite, but IIRC, Jim said he wasn't sure if there would be an add'l charge or not for the Epic-X package.

I quoted your "can't remember... Stage 2" because I've lost track also.

All else is my speculation based on other things announced and my own experience. (Obviously, I'm lobbying for the no charge scenario. :wink5: )

 

[Kevin Wild]

My gosh...this is the downside to the way RED delivers information...

I could be wrong here, but I thought there is no SIDE SSD module for the Epic and that YES, there is a definitely a charge for it.

Am I crazy? Thought I read this...

 

[David Battistella]

Thanks Michael.

I was not trying to put words in your mouth and you make a very good and welcome point.

David

 

[Deanan]

While that is, of course, true, there are some other factors:

1. You're getting 4x the capacity, but on many productions, you don't need 4x the capacity because in order to move through a production day without incurring a backlog for file backups, you tend to keep file loads to a comfortable size - say, about 20 minutes per card. So in effect, you're paying 3.5x more for capacity that you may not use.

2. The additional capacity is clearly aimed at accommodating higher data rates for the planned lower compression ratios. On many productions, this won't be used.

3. The SSD's are indeed faster to offload, but that doesn't really change the need to keep each load manageable in order to keep backup operations moving and not take chances on potential lost data. A production will likely need to carry just as many SSD's as they do CF cards today despite the larger capacity.

4. People should understand that tech isn't free. Sometimes it isn't cheap, either. Developing and deploying new things costs money, even if it is based on commodity technology. The need to have faster write speeds and higher capacity for larger frame sizes and lower compression ratios seems to me to be the driver behind the switch to SSD's. Justifying the additional cost of doing this shouldn't be necessary.

#1: Not true for Epic. 5k is now a higher data rate and you have to drop below REDcode 28(RC 10:1) for the 5k on 16GB cards. Since most people are recording at higher than redcode 28, 16GB cards won't be very useful. Even if they could record fast enough to do Redcode 42 (RC 7.5:1), the run times would under 4 minutes.

At 5k 2:1 and REDcode 5:1 (which will likely be what most features shoot with), a 64GB SSD will be about 12-13 minutes.

#2: I think we'll see RC 5:1 become the norm for most productions based on the feedback we've gotten.

#3: True and that doesn't change the cost and performance advantages over 16GB cards especially considering their use on Epic.

#4: Agreed. If you're buying Epic and expect data rates go down, that doesn't make sense.

 

[Kevin Wild]

Deanan-About your #1...Will having the HDRx mode on reduce that number significantly or is that record time of 12-13 min spec'd WITH HDRx on?

 

[David Battistella]

#1: Not true for Epic. 5k is now a higher data rate and you have to drop below REDcode 28(RC 10:1) for the 5k on 16GB cards. Since most people are recording at higher than redcode 28, 16GB cards won't be very useful. Even if they could record fast enough to do Redcode 42 (RC 7.5:1), the run times would under 4 minutes.

At 5k 2:1 and REDcode 5:1 (which will likely be what most features shoot with), a 64GB SSD will be about 12-13 minutes.

#2: I think we'll see RC 5:1 become the norm for most productions based on the feedback we've gotten.

#3: True and that doesn't change the cost and performance advantages over 16GB cards especially considering their use on Epic.

#4: Agreed. If you're buying Epic and expect data rates go down, that doesn't make sense.

This helps me make sense of a lot of things and also helps me understand why SSD makes sense as the viable recording option.

Can we still shoot 4K on EPIC or does that mean it crops or scales?

David

 

[Michael Hastings]

This helps me make sense of a lot of things and also helps me understand why SSD makes sense as the viable recording option.

David

SSD really is the sweet spot, a) it is price competitive with even COTS CF now with much better performance due to it's being used in other extreme performance applications where cf is not and won't be (I.e. Workstations, servers, etc.); b) small enough for our purposes; and c) prices will continue to fall and capacities will continue to rise for quite awhile into the future.

 

[David Battistella]

Yep.

No issue with this move to SSD.

david