More new color science...

[Julian Fort]

Exciting! When can we see some sample footage?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

As to redlogFilm, open your RCX and choose it under gamma...

 

[Nick Shaw]

It would be immensely useful to be able to push a user button and show REDlog F in camera

Another vote for that one.

It would among other things allow the use of external LUT systems like Truelight On-Set.

 

[M Most]

I think we're a long way off (maybe 5 years) before we have an established "standard" as to image-pipelines and processing in the "digital cinema" context, and RED pushing the envelope is all good.

As someone who is somewhat involved in the IIF/ACES effort, I disagree. We're a lot closer than that. The system is largely developed and very real, and supported by a multi party group. With some manufacturer cooperation, it could be implemented a lot sooner than you think, at least on the studio/professional side.

For better or worse, that is what putting RAW in the hands of "laymen" has opened for: Constant development.

It has significant downsides, I agree, especially for projects where noone have researched the workflow before starting up, but that would be the case for a filmshoot, too - don't you agree?

No, not really. In the first case, projects develop as they develop. Post facilities are not necessarily hired at the same time as production personnel, and visual effects companies are a separate issue as well - not to mention that there are often multiple VFX companies involved in a project of any significant size. On film, there are universal standards for processing (it doesn't matter whether you shoot Kodak or Fuji, the labs know what to do and they all do it essentially the same way), scanning, and, to a great degree, display. With Red, there are a lot of choices but no standard. As I said earlier, that's good and fun for individuals, but not a lot of fun for professionals working on longform projects with multiple vendors over months of production.

I think I'm going to bow out of this conversation. A few things are clear to me now. First, my view is in the minority here (it usually is). Second, the main reason for that is that the world I work in is not the world the vast majority of posters here work in. It has different needs and requirements, and different problems to solve. And given that out of the thousands of cameras Red has sold, only a very small percentage - probably no more than 5%, if that - are used on the kind of productions I deal with, it likely doesn't represent Red's primary target of users, and is thus a bit lower on the development target list. I understand that, I just feel it's useful to sometimes offer a different point of view than a lot of the individuals represented here. But now that I've offered that, any more is a bit redundant.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

M Most.

If there's ones posts I try to read, it's yours, even though you are right in that we work in diferent worlds, where TV-series for national broadcast + some feature work (in my case) probably is the only common term. Which nation and what series are hugely uncomparable -

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

I think I'm going to bow out of this conversation. A few things are clear to me now. First, my view is in the minority here (it usually is).

your input is worth a lot.
even if your view is in the minority, doesnt mean its wrong

 

[David Quinn Carder]

Well when you shoot with your SLR, are you shooting RAW or jpeg?
Every single camera applies it's own color management and treatment to the image shot if you save to jpg. This is baked into the image and all processing is done on top of it.

When you shoot RAW, the RAW file is meant to be a data dump of the sensor read, which the image editing software then appplies it's image processing over, just like teh camera would. Except now you have more control.

I'm assuming you already knew that, so just a refresher. All this image processing is subjective and definitely not standardized.

So the idea of a natural image varies from program to program, camera to camera. It's more of a vague ideal than a fact.

Yes, I always shoot RAW. What you're saying makes sense, and I should probably do a comparison of how the image comes out with my "pure" settings when taken through the Nikon software versus Aperture versus Photoshop, before I ask any more questions or make any assertions.

 

[Eric Trageser]

Count me as one who is satisfied with how things are being done, but that doesn't keep me from understanding your point. Assuming everything with a budget takes out insurance, maybe it is up to the insurers to stipulate that a written agreement between production and post on how to proceed would keep everyone on the same page. Maybe a post house should publish how they can handle a workflow and update it regularly.

I just don't think it is RED's responsibility to insure every use of the camera is assured, especially since they don't own the production companies or the post houses.

Insurers are often the last to understand the work flow, not the first, and they would need to actually understand this written agreement to be able to bank on it, and it would likely be different every time. They need a big enough body of historical data to make smart actuarial evaluations of what the risk is.

So in a world of constantly evolving software, they want to limit risk by approving:
1- the individual(s) doing the work (more experienced = better).
and/or
2-the workflow with the most history (which will likely be older).

This is smart on #1 and a pain on #2. IME, insurers don't like anything with the word beta on it. I think putting the onus on insurers will just bog things down more.

The bigger (and longer) the production, the more links in the chain, the greater the need for uniformity. Having gone through a pretty substantial struggle to get MX cameras and build 30.5 approved by insurers on a commercial job in Canada back in May, it made sense to me how much they relied on the resume of the individual DIT we used to say yes to it.

I can only guess the focus it must take for a guy like Mike Most to nail down a workflow & schedule for an entire season of episodic, and please everybody involved in the process.

You're right that it's not RED's responsibility to assure EVERYTHING. But since they write the firmware for shooting RED and the SDK for posting RED, the way RED releases software upgrades does ripple out to the rest of the world in a very real way.

 

[Eric Trageser]

all great points form the post production side. As a cinematographer, I care about color and look consistency through the course of the project. I also WANT to shoot RED. The more problems or workflow complications encountered in post, the more of a reason producers have to NOT want to shoot RED. Camera systems that are perceived as simpler, less hassle, less problematic, and less costly because of their workflow will be chosen by producers. This is likely why Arri chose the "Direct to Edit" slogan as a main focus marketing tool.

YES. Second that.
(Hey Eric, what's up?)

 

[Elsie N]

Insurers are often the last to understand the work flow, not the first, and they would need to actually understand this written agreement to be able to bank on it, and it would likely be different every time. They need a big enough body of historical data to make smart actuarial evaluations of what the risk is.

So in a world of constantly evolving software, they want to limit risk by approving:
1- the individual(s) doing the work (more experienced = better).
and/or
2-the workflow with the most history (which will likely be older).

This is smart on #1 and a pain on #2. IME, insurers don't like anything with the word beta on it. I think putting the onus on insurers will just bog things down more.

The bigger (and longer) the production, the more links in the chain, the greater the need for uniformity. Having gone through a pretty substantial struggle to get MX cameras and build 30.5 approved by insurers on a commercial job in Canada back in May, it made sense to me how much they relied on the resume of the individual DIT we used to say yes to it.

I can only guess the focus it must take for a guy like Mike Most to nail down a workflow & schedule for an entire season of episodic, and please everybody involved in the process.

You're right that it's not RED's responsibility to assure EVERYTHING. But since they write the firmware for shooting RED and the SDK for posting RED, the way RED releases software upgrades does ripple out to the rest of the world in a very real way.

If the insurers can't create the commonality, then I'm all out of ideas. And while I'm unaffected, still I hate zero sum (sorta) games. I know in time this will all be sorted out (look how long film had to get their workflow act together) as Digital cameras become supreme and everyone gets up to speed with what is offered.

Until then, hooray for me getting what I need... and sorry for any inconvenience that may cause for anyone else.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I think I'm going to bow out of this conversation. A few things are clear to me now. First, my view is in the minority here (it usually is). Second, the main reason for that is that the world I work in is not the world the vast majority of posters here work in. It has different needs and requirements, and different problems to solve. And given that out of the thousands of cameras Red has sold, only a very small percentage - probably no more than 5%, if that - are used on the kind of productions I deal with, it likely doesn't represent Red's primary target of users, and is thus a bit lower on the development target list. I understand that, I just feel it's useful to sometimes offer a different point of view than a lot of the individuals represented here. But now that I've offered that, any more is a bit redundant.

I think you'll get some serious reinforcements come EPIC release. Also, consider that RED has already altered their forum MO and their product release MO. Methinks they will likely kick off their second generation with a new support MO. All I can say as a proud fanboi is that we should be patient as they adapt, trust that resources are being allocated to the best of their ability, and hope to be close to their mean client. And of course, never stop communicating to them our needs and hearts' desires. A lot of the more specific stuff you guys talk about goes over my head, as it should, but I do know that as a Red user I am benefiting from all this brain twisting jibberish. And I am also learning a lot, so don't you dare take your hands off that keyboard! I know where you work...

 

[Deanan]

are used on the kind of productions I deal with, it likely doesn't represent Red's primary target of users, and is thus a bit lower on the development target list.

Not true. We spend a tremendous amount of time on custom and dedicated features for that 5%. Working with post community is actually pretty tough because everyone wants something didfferent and will give you different information. Often to protect secret sauce which can be very frustrating.

 

[Deanan]

As someone who is somewhat involved in the IIF/ACES effort, I disagree. We're a lot closer than that. The system is largely developed and very real, and supported by a multi party group. With some manufacturer cooperation, it could be implemented a lot sooner than you think, at least on the studio/professional side.

Agreed. Chicken and egg situation though as more DI hardware/sw needs to move up to half float. So far Nucoda is the closest and there's already one feature being graded in half float (although not ACES I believe). We can be ready to roll it out as soon as it starts to solidify.

 

[M Most]

Not true. We spend a tremendous amount of time on custom and dedicated features for that 5%.

I probably didn't word that correctly. I'm well aware of those efforts as you know (I've actually been the recipient of some of them). The point I was trying to make was related more to the long term stability needs in the long form world as opposed to some of the updates, which I feel are sometimes more a change of opinion on Red's part as to what looks "better" than they are true technical improvements, as evidenced by the descriptions of Redgamma 2 and Redcolor 2. Always done with good intentions, of course, but they come with the very real downside of sometimes disrupting pipelines, especially when multiple vendors are involved, due to varying speed and amount of adoption by those vendors. I don't have an answer, I'm just pointing out the problem.

 

[M Most]

Agreed. Chicken and egg situation though as more DI hardware/sw needs to move up to half float. So far Nucoda is the closest and there's already one feature being graded in half float (although not ACES I believe). We can be ready to roll it out as soon as it starts to solidify.

I'm going to try and do some tests here in the next week or two. I'll get in touch with you when I'm a bit closer.

 

[Deanan]

I probably didn't word that correctly. I'm well aware of those efforts as you know (I've actually been the recipient of some of them). The point I was trying to make was related more to the long term stability needs in the long form world as opposed to some of the updates, which I feel are sometimes more a change of opinion on Red's part as to what looks "better" than they are true technical improvements, as evidenced by the descriptions of Redgamma 2 and Redcolor 2. Always done with good intentions, of course, but they come with the very real downside of sometimes disrupting pipelines, especially when multiple vendors are involved, due to varying speed and amount of adoption by those vendors. I don't have an answer, I'm just pointing out the problem.

So far all the color science improvements have been largely technical but color science in itself has an element of art involved. REDcolor2 and REDgamma2 are both technical refinements on improving the range and color extracted. Alot of it comes in response from feedback that you and others that we've listened to so it's contradictory to say that we shouldn't do this while criticising of what we have. We're not afraid of improving things if we can do better.

Every other company, Arri, Sony, Panasonic, Thompson have modified/added to their color science after releasing. Every post house has messed with mapping densities on scanning and recording differently. Some are using 445 as 18% vs 470 instead of 16%. Lots of skeletons buried in the secret sauces.

Even ACES is another change in workflow but will itself be changing for a while until it matures...

 

[Deanan]

I'm going to try and do some tests here in the next week or two. I'll get in touch with you when I'm a bit closer.

Is Baselight ready?

 

[Brook Willard]

If there's one term I've learned to hate over the past few months, it's "secret sauce". Every post house seems to have it... and nobody wants it anymore. To quote a DP friend of mine, "we don't hire you for the secret sauce... we hire you for you."

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

If there's one term I've learned to hate over the past few months, it's "secret sauce". Every post house seems to have it... and nobody wants it anymore. To quote a DP friend of mine, "we don't hire you for the secret sauce... we hire you for you."

I like that, because it is only through mutual help that you achieve growth. Anything else is a scam.

Our "society" sucks. Humans suck! Me included.

...where is that big red nirvana button? Wait, was that a Staples commercial?

OK, I'll go stfu now.

<3

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I probably didn't word that correctly. I'm well aware of those efforts as you know (I've actually been the recipient of some of them). The point I was trying to make was related more to the long term stability needs in the long form world as opposed to some of the updates, which I feel are sometimes more a change of opinion on Red's part as to what looks "better" than they are true technical improvements, as evidenced by the descriptions of Redgamma 2 and Redcolor 2. Always done with good intentions, of course, but they come with the very real downside of sometimes disrupting pipelines, especially when multiple vendors are involved, due to varying speed and amount of adoption by those vendors. I don't have an answer, I'm just pointing out the problem.

I'd say better highlight roll-off - which I suppose will include better maintenance of color saturation and fidelity as we approach white-clip - is not a change of mood or artistic direction - it is really an objective improvement of a purely technical nature.