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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Modular Dragon OLPF sneak peak

Question:

Will the "OLD OLPF" that will be offered still have the "reflected IR flare or magenta glow around bright sources" that was present in Phil Holland's test (seen here: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?112230-the-New-Dragon-OLPF). Will there be any other changes made to it, or will it be the same OLPF that was released previously.

Thank you.
 
steve green said:
I'm with you Denis. It's really hard for me to understand all the excitement over this. This is the DRAGON SENSOR, hyped for two years, and now we have to change OLPF's in order achieve the specs advertised. I can appreciate the need for this to be work in progress, I really do, but if this is the final product/fix, with no in camera implementation, I for one am disappointed. This isn't like a film stock, you can't change in 30 seconds. You need visit a clean safe environment before you change how your camera see's the world. I thought the Epic Dragon was going to be just that, EPIC.
Click to expand...

A firmware patch I believe is still in the works. And now we also have D.E.B. This OLPF modularity is simply ANOTHER resource RED is providing.
 
Jarred Land said:
We are... You might have noticed that Sean R our original and top field tech has dedicated most if his time in the last 6 months traveling to different waters around the world testing different filters andworking with Graeme and the engineers on new glass.
.
tumblr_n5ww5qUqAe1tvxnu6o1_1280.jpg
Click to expand...

SWEET!

(Re: an underwater tuned olpf)
 
Lee Saxon said:
That looks pretty big...is this going to be pretty far away from the sensor and pretty thick? We've learned a lot lately about how much that affects lenses designed for film (which in the motion world especially are what most people use). http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/07/sensor-stack-thickness-part-iii-the-summary
Click to expand...

Its the same "size" as what is already in there.. thats why you can swap out the old multi-piece stack and replace with this single stack.
 
Jacobo Martinez said:
Jarred maybe it would be a good idea to do a tutorial on swaping olpf so people can see how easy it will be.
Click to expand...

When the time comes I'm sure Red will make one of those nice videos they put up on the store page for it.


paul schefz said:
in general i think this is a great new feature but i am even ore confused now about the actual specs....is it 14?15? stops and with which olpf? the old olpf did not have the 16+ stops promised and serious other problems, so it was replaced.....the new one lacks the DR in the shadows and adds noise, so now we are getting a whole bunch of olpfs....great but what if i just want one....the one that red had in mind when the dragon was first launched and the specs were released....
i don't see any of these olpfs making the dragon this huge improvement...they probably all will for different situations and it might be fun to have that option but in general it is more of a drag...
use this one for the highlights and this one for shadows and this one for high iso......call me greedy but i want all of that.....and especially since quite a bit more was promised....
Click to expand...

Greedy is fine, but Red's giving the option to allow you to have a choice. If I recall correctly a 1-1.3 stop increase with the old OLPF versus the new OLPF. That's all light hitting the sensor. The old/OG OLPF is what you want if you want cleaner higher ISO performance. However, the new OLPF provides a better overall image quality.

Red's published 16+ stops of Dynamic Range is accurate. If you look at this image below those are measured one stop increments. Shooting at lower ISO values places more of those stops in the shadows, higher ISO values you get more of a spread across the highlights. Again, I stress this, this was measured with a meter and digital samples.

phfx_redDragon_ISOExamples.jpg



The core thing for many here is ISO 800/1280 provides a nice tonal range that is approximately equality divided above and below middle gray. This more relevant for film folks in reality as there's certainly times where you might want to shoot at ISO 250 or whatever. Essentially under common situations you will be applying a curve to your material and you will end up with 12-17 visible stops if working within the recommended ISO range.

It's all about how you choose to expose and rate your ISO. Some like the look of specific ISO ratings and proceed from there. In the last 3 weeks I've shot ISO 250, 320, 500, 800, and 1280 for different "looks and textures".
 
I'm really confused... Low light is important to me, but am happy with MX level performance. Can anyone tell me what are the real world drawbacks of the old OLPF? I saw Phil's post and a very strange flare capture with it. Is this going to happen often? Or is this going to happen in very, very specific situations? Can I get "regular" looking flares with the old OLPF?
 
Phil Holland said:
When the time comes I'm sure Red will make one of those nice videos they put up on the store page for it.




Greedy is fine, but Red's giving the option to allow you to have a choice. If I recall correctly a 1-1.3 stop increase with the old OLPF versus the new OLPF. That's all light hitting the sensor. The old/OG OLPF is what you want if you want cleaner higher ISO performance. However, the new OLPF provides a better overall image quality.

Red's published 16+ stops of Dynamic Range is accurate. If you look at this image below those are measured one stop increments. Shooting at lower ISO values places more of those stops in the shadows, higher ISO values you get more of a spread across the highlights. Again, I stress this, this was measured with a meter and digital samples.

phfx_redDragon_ISOExamples.jpg



The core thing for many here is ISO 800/1280 provides a nice tonal range that is approximately equality divided above and below middle gray. This more relevant for film folks in reality as there's certainly times where you might want to shoot at ISO 250 or whatever. Essentially under common situations you will be applying a curve to your material and you will end up with 12-17 visible stops if working within the recommended ISO range.

It's all about how you choose to expose and rate your ISO. Some like the look of specific ISO ratings and proceed from there. In the last 3 weeks I've shot ISO 250, 320, 500, 800, and 1280 for different "looks and textures".
Click to expand...

Hello Phil,
Very interresting chart indeed. Thank you.
2000 iso seems to give more stops in the highlights.
Is this ISO setting the closest thing to film in term of texture & highlight rolloff so ?
In your opinion, what are the differences in term of textures between the ISO you mentionned ?
Thank you Phil.
 
I wish RED would state in no uncertain terms what the way forward will be. Is DEB the final fix? Is a fix in camera being worked on and will be implemented? Or is the post fix all that will be done?
The way I see it, RED has over promised and under delivered. Well, it is hard to blow the MX out of the water, as it is a very high quality sensor, not without issues, but still one of the best nonetheless.
Yes the Dragon has better color rendition, and better highlights than the MX, but in my opinion is not a revolution that makes the MX look like doodoo. From the hype before Dragon deliveries started, the impression I was getting was that my MX would be completely obsolete and there would be no way around upgrading to Dragon. Right now I'm very happy with my MX, and so are my clients...
I really wanted to believe, I wanted to be excited about Dragon, and I still hope something will come out of this that will make us all shut up and marvel at some incredible images that wouldn't have been possible with the MX...
 
Daniel Stilling said:
I wish RED would state in no uncertain terms what the way forward will be. Is DEB the final fix? Is a fix in camera being worked on and will be implemented? Or is the post fix all that will be done?
The way I see it, RED has over promised and under delivered. Well, it is hard to blow the MX out of the water, as it is a very high quality sensor, not without issues, but still one of the best nonetheless.
Yes the Dragon has better color rendition, and better highlights than the MX, but in my opinion is not a revolution that makes the MX look like doodoo. From the hype before Dragon deliveries started, the impression I was getting was that my MX would be completely obsolete and there would be no way around upgrading to Dragon. Right now I'm very happy with my MX, and so are my clients...
I really wanted to believe, I wanted to be excited about Dragon, and I still hope something will come out of this that will make us all shut up and marvel at some incredible images that wouldn't have been possible with the MX...
Click to expand...
Thank you
 
Daniel Stilling said:
I wish RED would state in no uncertain terms what the way forward will be. Is DEB the final fix? Is a fix in camera being worked on and will be implemented? Or is the post fix all that will be done?
The way I see it, RED has over promised and under delivered. Well, it is hard to blow the MX out of the water, as it is a very high quality sensor, not without issues, but still one of the best nonetheless.
Yes the Dragon has better color rendition, and better highlights than the MX, but in my opinion is not a revolution that makes the MX look like doodoo. From the hype before Dragon deliveries started, the impression I was getting was that my MX would be completely obsolete and there would be no way around upgrading to Dragon. Right now I'm very happy with my MX, and so are my clients...
I really wanted to believe, I wanted to be excited about Dragon, and I still hope something will come out of this that will make us all shut up and marvel at some incredible images that wouldn't have been possible with the MX...
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree. I think we are only starting to see the beginning of what Dragon can offer. RED hasn't even released the firmware patch yet (which is supposed to be coming). That should take care of the "red specks", and once DEB is available in Resolve, Premiere, etc...I think we are going to start seeing Dragon...in a whole new light (literally).

Add in the modularity of these OLPF swaps (I can only imagine what other OLPF's RED has in store), and I think RED owners are in for a treat.

Remember, MX has been around for a while. It's been maxed out. It works great. Dragon is still in it's infancy, and we are only starting to see what it can do. From my friends who are shooting on Dragon already, they made it very clear to me - there is NO GOING BACK TO MX. It's a world of difference. The skin tones, colors, fidelity, DR...are just a whole generation ahead. But these things may be hard to compute over the internet and vimeo posts, so I can understand the skepticism.

I for one am completely sold, and am looking forward anxiously to save up for Dragon. I'm pretty sure it will be one of the best $9K I've ever spent.
 
Hugues Dagallier said:
Hello Phil,
Very interresting chart indeed. Thank you.
2000 iso seems to give more stops in the highlights.
Is this ISO setting the closest thing to film in term of texture & highlight rolloff so ?
In your opinion, what are the differences in term of textures between the ISO you mentionned ?
Thank you Phil.
Click to expand...

That's more or less the concept. It's all about how it's "mapped" and where things are placed. Each ISO rating has implications towards how much texture your final image has.

I would say in terms of tonal response and what the sensor has to offer you would be targeting ISO 800-1280 for the most "film-like" image.

The highlight roll off effect seems to always be there to me. It just doesn't clip hard like Mysterium-X, and that's a visible difference even in extreme scenarios.

The difference in textures is really how much texture you actually want. Texture is there across the ISO range, 250-2000. As you rate your midtones for a higher ISO value more general "activity" will be seen in the texture and you will see that across the image.


Daniel Stilling said:
I wish RED would state in no uncertain terms what the way forward will be. Is DEB the final fix? Is a fix in camera being worked on and will be implemented? Or is the post fix all that will be done?
The way I see it, RED has over promised and under delivered. Well, it is hard to blow the MX out of the water, as it is a very high quality sensor, not without issues, but still one of the best nonetheless.
Yes the Dragon has better color rendition, and better highlights than the MX, but in my opinion is not a revolution that makes the MX look like doodoo. From the hype before Dragon deliveries started, the impression I was getting was that my MX would be completely obsolete and there would be no way around upgrading to Dragon. Right now I'm very happy with my MX, and so are my clients...
I really wanted to believe, I wanted to be excited about Dragon, and I still hope something will come out of this that will make us all shut up and marvel at some incredible images that wouldn't have been possible with the MX...
Click to expand...


Why would it make MX look like "doodoo"? People are still shooting with the OG Red One sensor and making compelling images. Dragon is more or less about checking things off the list:

- Better Dynamic Range
- Better Color Response
- Better Skintones
- Vastly improved IR Cutting (no IRNDs are needed with Dragon)
- Higher Resolution
- 5K in the S35 Format Size
- Larger overall format size
- 16 bit color and tone precision

If that stuff doesn't excite you, specifically anything related to color, skintones, and realistically IR, I have no idea what will. With such focus on little red specks, which can now be tackled one way via D.E.B., many are overlooking what makes Dragon very good. D.E.B. is today's solution to that problem and Red went one step further and found something that makes the color channel information better across the board. Can it be done in camera for a signal out? Can it be "set" in camera to have D.E.B. set to on upon import?

If you think about it, no camera made by Red thus far is obsolete. I don't know why you'd feel otherwise.
 
Wooooow
Exciting! Thanks big J and team.
My pleasure to be on board.
Cheers
 
Hey Jarred,

Is it possible to improve the Old OLPF so that it doesn't exhibit as you said "a reflected IR flare or magenta glow around bright sources inside or on the edge of Frame in different strengths depending on the light, the angle of reflection, lens etc."

(http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?111400-Dragon-Flare&highlight=reflected+flare)

If there's going to be the option to purchase the Old OLPF for Low-light situations in addition to the current Dragon OLPF for better highlight roll off / color etc, is it possible to make some improvements to the Old OLPF addressing the above issue?

I understand they'll be trade offs between the two, but maybe there's some middle ground since that could include that fix?

Thanks,
Eli
 
People seem to forget that all RED's cameras get better over time. Remember RC/RG 1/2/3 and now 4? Improvements made to the image "over time." And even so, that you can go back to your old work and re-render with the new upgrades!

I just bought my Scarlet Dragon, and I'm already excited with what I have in my hand. Now imagine the improvements that can be made in 1, 2, and even 3 years behind the Dragon sensor? It's only getting started with DEB, and these OLPFs.

I'm already seeing a feature in the future that I can't wait to have (predicting, but it's bound to happen, right?) ADD in Premiere, with GPU rendering? Yes please!

^ one example of how it can only get better.
 
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