Mini Mags are Slowest Media

[Kemalettin Sert]

Why we red owners have only one option for media and that one is the slowest and expensive one?
Alexa 1st Gen had SXS Cards which is faster than current Red Mini Mags.
Alexa XT have Codex mags speeds up to 850MB per second.
Alexa ST will have Codex Capture 2.0 newest version 2TB 20Gb/s.
Alexa Mini have CFast 2.0 option speeds up to 515MB.Lexar and Sandisk Prices
Sony offering two different cards for both F55 and F65.ASX & SRMemory speeds up to 2.4Gb/s and 5Gb/s.


With RED DIGITAL CINEMA on newest camera line we have only 1 option which is RED MINI-MAG.
WEAPON DRAGON (Carbon Fiber) up to 300 MB/s
WEAPON DRAGON (Magnesium) up to 225 MB/s
RAVEN DRAGON up to 140 MB/s
Whats the limiting factor on here? Cameras or Media? If its cameras why we are so far behind on others? If it is media why not offering fastest option so we can use it on next generations with sacrificing compression or quality.As you can see top even CFast 2.0 giving double speed of Weapon Magnesium.Its like overkill media for Magnesium.
Why not making CFast module for Magnesium and speed up to Weapon Carbon Fiber line?
Why we need to put our money on slow media in here?
i believed in Obsolescence Obsolete...

 

[Phil Holland]

You are always chasing Kemalettin, which I appreciate, but there's also more info here and there's a little bit of being caught up in marketing/spec hype going on.

MINI-MAGs release date: December 2013.

2.4gb/s = 300MB/s.

The faster 512GB and 1TB MINI-MAGs are "capped" at 300MB write speeds at the camera level for fairly conservative write protection, which is important. They can indeed reach around a 2.8gb/s (350MB/s) write speed outside of the camera and can be read at around 4gb/s (500MB/s), I bet there's more in that read speed too, but I have nothing else to test that with at the moment. RED is publishing "what they do" very accurately when it comes to MINI-MAGs.

The maximum write speed of a SXS Pro is 2.8gb/s btw. If you notice that's an alarmingly similar number.

CFAST? Examing this quote:

*Up to 510MB/s read transfer, write speeds lower. Speeds based on internal testing. Actual performance may vary. x=150KB/s. 3x faster claim based on reported CompactFlash speed specification.

The last time I tested CFAST 2.0 "3400X" cards, it capped out at 270-ish MB/s at peak. I'll have to test the most recent "3600X" cards soon.


RED isn't "more far behind than others". They released MINI-MAGs almost exactly 2 years ago. At the moment with RED Weapon 6K you can record 6K FF @ 3:1, 24fps. Which is a nice thick file. I suspect in the future there will be new media, likely some time away, but REDCODE RAW is lightweight as a compressed raw format.

You have 1 option today with MINI-MAGs, actually two since the 120GB and 240GB are not as fast as the 512GB and 1TB. One option on a camera released a couple months ago so far.

RED is using the latest media tech and implementing in this specific way with MINI-MAGs. In the future, and I imagine with 8K on the very near horizon and if there's going to be a thicker data and higher speed camera, there will be a need for much faster media. 8K Weapon will shoot 8K FF REDCODE RAW 5:1 at speed and 8K WS 4:1 at speed.

My personal opinion here. I believe in REDCODE RAW, 8K-4K RED capture, and the general workflow. I hope that within the next few years RED will be able to advance forward to technology (meaning sensor, body, processing, and media combined) to get us to about 2-5X the maximum specs we have today. 8K at 120-300fps is my desire, but there's a lot of technological advancement that needs to occur. I do see a time, a client, and a market that will want 24-60fps 4K and 8K content as it's general timebase.

That's a few years away however as so much of the core technology needs to advance as well. Like 2-5 years (2 years for just the basic stuff) if I did the estimate correctly.

I'll be as happy as a pickle in a jar with 8K Weapon delivers. 8K FF @ 60fps is going to be lovely for years to come.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Yes Phil im always chasing because i want to own best and it has to be RED thats what i love most..
Sandisk Pro CFast 2.0 write speed is 440Mb/s if you are wondering.While there are options like Codex with enourmous speeds up to 900Mb per second.(3X ) what is red preparing for us on next chapter i just want to know.Because RED MINI MAGs are not enough

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I feel the lust for higher data rate options for specific use cases. That said, 300MB/s is enough bandwidth to carry tons of image data in RedCode, and to fill up mags quickly ;-). For over crank I can see the advantage of higher data rates. Of course, if you're serious about high speed, you should probably rent a purpose built camera like the Phantom 4K Flex.

Cheers - #19

 

[Brian Merlen]

i think cfast cards will continue to get cheaper faster than proprietary media though cost wise, and that i personally see as a reason to push for it as an option if it can ever be done... i been saying that for quite some time though and always get told about reliability and its why it has to be proprietary... hell if i know, but my amira fills those cards up fast i notice anyway size wise, and I'm sure alexa mini will as well if i get one... maybe if they made larger cards it would make more sense?

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Cfast 2.0 Side Module would be awesome idea for weapon.I dont believe in that reliability story.Arri trusted in Cfast cards and they have been making multi million dollar budget biggest hollywood movies on Alexa Mini.

 

[Milano Questa]

SSDs are a big money maker for Red. The possibility of them ever allowing Cfast or other media is 0.

 

[Curran Giddens]

SSDs are a big money maker for Red.

Good! I want Red to stay in business for a long time

Gotta make the profits somewhere...

 

[Demetri Zuev]

SSDs are a big money maker for Red. The possibility of them ever allowing Cfast or other media is 0.

This

 

[Maik Müller]

SSDs are a big money maker for Red. The possibility of them ever allowing Cfast or other media is 0.

Yeah, and they drop prices, run a trade-in-program and don't stop to extend the line in both directions, cheaper and bigger/faster, even sometimes making some of their stocked up REDMAGs more or less obsolete. All that just for fun.

It's too easy to say REDMAGs are only there to make a big profit. RED is really fair with their proprietary media.

 

[Brian Merlen]

dont get me wrong, the trade in deal on mags helps....but i sublease and i have to buy whatever the rental agents want kit wise and if they want a different capacity mag then i can't even do trade ins is the issue... that along with the faster throughput needs of every successive generation of cameras is a recipe for lots of expensive proprietary media, so i eat up the costs but at a certain point the weapon upgrade gets a little much proportionally cost wise for me compared to the past when you account for all the costs of CF weapon/8k... like with none of my parts carrying over almost at all this retooling is going to be tough is all, makes me almost want to keep DSMC1 around and buy another DSMC2 unit at a certain point cost wise, but until said agents get me the kit list I'm kind of up in the air just guessing what i'll need...the main point being this retool is going to be very tough this time around is what it looks like cost wise, at least for me personally..

 

[Milano Questa]

Yeah, and they drop prices, run a trade-in-program and don't stop to extend the line in both directions, cheaper and bigger/faster, even sometimes making some of their stocked up REDMAGs more or less obsolete. All that just for fun.

It's too easy to say REDMAGs are only there to make a big profit. RED is really fair with their proprietary media.

i'm just saying what it is. No need to get defensive. I'm sure Red has their reasons. But they could probably offer other media types or Redmags at lower prices if they wanted to. Same goes for the LCDs

 

[Terry VerHaar]

i'm just saying what it is. No need to get defensive. I'm sure Red has their reasons. But they could probably offer other media types or Redmags at lower prices if they wanted to. Same goes for the LCDs

No, actually you are just making unsubstantiated guesses, which also seem imply that RED is somehow treating its customers unfairly.

 

[Clayton Taylor]

No, actually you are just making unsubstantiated guesses, which also seem imply that RED is somehow treating its customers unfairly.

No, he's actually speaking business sense. If you own proprietary technology which every camera requires to function, you have a higher price to help recover costs on other items which may not have as high of a profit margin... for example.. video games. The systems are created with minimal if any profit... the profit comes from software which continues to keep the company in business. You can think of it that way. Trust me, they have markup.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

No, actually you are just making unsubstantiated guesses, which also seem imply that RED is somehow treating its customers unfairly.

Then please explain me why Red MG PL 2.0 is 3500$ no LDS support no tech geeky internals and LBus connector which powers the motors.
And on the other hand Arri offering Ti PL Mount ( i/ Support,LDS and LBus connector) btw its made from Titanium, which red told us its expensive material.Arri PL mount price is 1500$
There are less than 1000 Alexa Minis for this mount.Red's new PL mount would available at least 10,000 cameras with newest weapon line.
Please tell me what kind of math we need to make on this situation?

 

[Milano Questa]

No, actually you are just making unsubstantiated guesses, which also seem imply that RED is somehow treating its customers unfairly.

Educated guesses ;- ) I work in the Nand bussiness.

 

[Mike Finegan]

How are you converting between "gb" and MB?
Also many vendors overestimate.
2-3Gb/Sec is pretty fast
if you want significantly faster use dual I/O like some of the digital medium format cameras (Pentax for ex).
One would hope SSD have higher MTBF but I have not seen any studies.
mike

You are always chasing Kemalettin, which I appreciate, but there's also more info here and there's a little bit of being caught up in marketing/spec hype going on.

MINI-MAGs release date: December 2013.

2.4gb/s = 300MB/s.

The faster 512GB and 1TB MINI-MAGs are "capped" at 300MB write speeds at the camera level for fairly conservative write protection, which is important. They can indeed reach around a 2.8gb/s (350MB/s) write speed outside of the camera and can be read at around 4gb/s (500MB/s), I bet there's more in that read speed too, but I have nothing else to test that with at the moment. RED is publishing "what they do" very accurately when it comes to MINI-MAGs.

The maximum write speed of a SXS Pro is 2.8gb/s btw. If you notice that's an alarmingly similar number.

CFAST? Examing this quote:



The last time I tested CFAST 2.0 "3400X" cards, it capped out at 270-ish MB/s at peak. I'll have to test the most recent "3600X" cards soon.


RED isn't "more far behind than others". They released MINI-MAGs almost exactly 2 years ago. At the moment with RED Weapon 6K you can record 6K FF @ 3:1, 24fps. Which is a nice thick file. I suspect in the future there will be new media, likely some time away, but REDCODE RAW is lightweight as a compressed raw format.

You have 1 option today with MINI-MAGs, actually two since the 120GB and 240GB are not as fast as the 512GB and 1TB. One option on a camera released a couple months ago so far.

RED is using the latest media tech and implementing in this specific way with MINI-MAGs. In the future, and I imagine with 8K on the very near horizon and if there's going to be a thicker data and higher speed camera, there will be a need for much faster media. 8K Weapon will shoot 8K FF REDCODE RAW 5:1 at speed and 8K WS 4:1 at speed.

My personal opinion here. I believe in REDCODE RAW, 8K-4K RED capture, and the general workflow. I hope that within the next few years RED will be able to advance forward to technology (meaning sensor, body, processing, and media combined) to get us to about 2-5X the maximum specs we have today. 8K at 120-300fps is my desire, but there's a lot of technological advancement that needs to occur. I do see a time, a client, and a market that will want 24-60fps 4K and 8K content as it's general timebase.

That's a few years away however as so much of the core technology needs to advance as well. Like 2-5 years (2 years for just the basic stuff) if I did the estimate correctly.

I'll be as happy as a pickle in a jar with 8K Weapon delivers. 8K FF @ 60fps is going to be lovely for years to come.

 

[Milano Questa]

Good! I want Red to stay in business for a long time

Gotta make the profits somewhere...

Me too. It's also the reason why we'll never see 4K coming out of the HDMI port. That's what the 6000$ broadcast module is for.

 

[David Ellison]

I'd like to know when red plans on releasing a red mag reader with thunderbolt.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

It's also the reason why we'll never see 4K coming out of the HDMI port.

You guys sure like to jump to "never" quickly don't ya?

Never say never. You can say EXTREMELY UNLIKELY. But don't say NEVER.

But personally, I have NO interest in 4K HDMI - since I know some stuff that is MUCH cooler than that for 4K + production

Keep your minds OPEN.

Further - RED could do VERY well if they do CFast module that locks to ProRes only. That - is much easier for them - and 100% possible. Weapon 8K is already rolling in lots of beta tests. And 8K makes shooting ProRes proxy MUCH more appealing. SO ... RED has a lot on their plate to make all that recording 100%, lock stock stable. With RED media - they can control it all - and tale responsibility.

CFast module locked to ProRes only recording is a SLAM DUNK for RED IMO and I hope they do it.

It would sell a HELL of lot more RAVENs.