Mic vs. Line Audio

[Stuart English]

What about for ENG work? Interviews? Documentary? Sometimes you don't have a sound department, sometimes you just plug a mic into the camera and being able to do micro adjustments without going through camera menus is extremely valuable. Rather then forcing people into Red's ideas about operation, why not make the camera/module more flexible and versatile? Having knobs wouldn't take anything away from those who have a mixer, but it would make the lives of those who don't a lot easier. Make them pop out so that when they're not in use they're flush with the module, or button knobs like on a HVX, etc. Sony, Panasonic and the rest might have been completely wrong about 1080p being good enough, in 2/3 inch chips, or on having virtually no upgrade path for their cameras, but were they really wrong about having volume control knobs?

But you don't have to "go through menus" to adjust the microphone's pre-amp level - just touch the Audio Level Meter to bring up the input gain sliders. Touch a second time to make that window go away.

As for Line Level that really does imply the use of an external mixer - by its very definition.

All audio modes on EPIC have 24-bit 48KHz circuits and soft limiters (and the option of AES / EBU direct digital audio ingest) so its quite a bit more advanced than most other cameras.

 

[Andy Jarosz]

I believe the argument is that because the EPIC is a cinema camera (The company is called RED Digital Cinema) that it should work first and foremost with the cinema workflow, which is primarily line level (indeed, with an external mixer.)

Sure, you COULD use it as an ENG camera. But the whole point is that it's a CINEMA camera and should work within a cinema world.

You could grate cheese with a screwdriver. Doesn't mean it's the right tool for the job.

 

[Colin Sheldon]

But you don't have to "go through menus" to adjust the microphone's pre-amp level - just touch the Audio Level Meter to bring up the input gain sliders. Touch a second time to make that window go away.

Stuart you are correct, it is a lot easier to do on an Epic then it is on a Red One (in fact that's true of pretty much everything on the Epic - I really like the menu structure). What is tough on the touch screen is being subtle - with a knob it's easy to slowly ease the volume down, with the touch screen it can be a bit tricky, especially if the touch screen doesn't respond the way you'd like it to. The touch screen is definitely improving as the builds are released, so hopefully that trend continues. My redmote is backordered so I don't know if it's possible to use it to adjust volume.

It would have been nice to not have to use work arounds, but I guess since the Pro I/O is on it's way to be FCC approved it is what it is at this point. At least things are improving.

Sure, you COULD use it as an ENG camera. But the whole point is that it's a CINEMA camera and should work within a cinema world.

You could grate cheese with a screwdriver. Doesn't mean it's the right tool for the job.

Absolutely. The primary function is a cinema camera and nothing should be added to the camera that would compromise it's core competency. However, no one has given any reasons as to how having volume control knobs would effect an Epic or Scarlet (or Red One's) primary function. At this point there is a column full of "+"s and an empty column of "-"s.

I don't do ENG work but for some reason out of all the times I listed knobs being useful that is what people seem to have latched onto, so let's go with that. Your analogy indicates that an Epic is poorly suited to ENG work. How is that so? With a PL to B4 adapter it can take ENG style lenses and shoot in 2k (or you could shoot in 4k with PL or Canon glass). It's good in low light, lightweight, does some fantastic frame rates, etc. Just because I bought a professional grade screwdriver, does that mean that I shouldn't be able to use it to take the batteries out of my kid's toy? ENG shooting is just a different subset of the video industry, not a completely different one like your analogy implies. That comes back to my earlier question - why setup road blocks for other uses? I can understand people not using knobs, but why would anyone be against them?

 

[David Battistella]

Hey colin

Your flogging a dead horse here. Sure it can be used eng style, you can record great audio. You can turn stuff around quickly enough for news. With a rocket card you could quickly render prores files and hand them over to a news station.

Im just saying I don't think it was "front of mind" with the EPIC. CBC news didn't want to be the first to use the EPIC, spiderman and other large features wanted it because that is what it was built for. Having worked at of CBC National news I can tell you that EPic would be close to the bottom of the list as a choice for news cameras.

Its not built with the specific demands for news in mind. Why us that hard to take or to understand. You may think that's a shame. I don't. I did not want to buy a news camera. I would use another camera for a news shoot.

David

 

[Antti Pirskanen]

I'm totally with Colin on this issue. Epic and Scarlet are such revolutionary cameras that there is no reason why one should adhere to all the traditional methods and ways of doing things. As far as audio recording is concerned, I don't think that it's too much to ask that a camera of this technical caliber and price point could effectively be used as a sound recording device also. I can totally see the motivation and space saving design philosophy in putting minijacks only in the brain. However, enabling line level input on the brain isn't something that takes taxes signal processing resources or takes any additional space on the camera body. The only way to get even half-decent audio quality out of some the DSLRs with mic level inputs only is to adjust the input level to one click above full-off and feeding them with a hot signal from a field mixer. I'm under the impression that this is the way to get absolutely optimal audio quality out of a Epic or Scarlet also.

Minijack connectors are notoriously not very reliable especially over a longer period of time, but they are a relatively convenient way to interface with existing audio gear. I wouldn't have minded if the audio inputs on the Epics and Scarlets were a completely proprietary locking miniature sized audio jack. I would take the reliablity of a locking, balanced connector and cable over the convenience of minijacks any day.

What I would really love to see is a integrated digital wireless camera hop audio module that just docks to the back of the brain. Something that is camera powered and with the functionality of a Zaxcom QRX100 or a Sony DWR-S01D. I suspect that high quality digital wireless audio will be totally mainstream within a few years.. not only in the high end, but even on very low budget projects.

But, really, I am glad that there already are some kind of audio inputs and proper 24 bit recording capability in the brain itself. Building new i/o modules and refining the recorded audio quality and workflow is possible and that is just one of the many reasons I'm so excited and confident about the Red cameras.

 

[David Battistella]

What is the "iusue"?

That the EPIC brain audio inputs are not up to your standards?

Everyone agrees that you can use the camera any way you like. I'm just talking about what I personally believe it is best suited for. News is not its strongest suite.

In fact I would most likely find it difficult to hand over r3d files to a "news organization".

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

A bit of old fashion testing... and your sweet...

I plan on shooting a film with all audio going directly through the cameras... no need to bring the circus.

Don't do that!

You already have a sound person, given them a Tascam HD-P2 (with TC in/out) and have double system. Really ... they do sound better than the Epic or R1 audio. Hell, even a Zoom H4N when used properly sounds much better than the recording of ANY camera. (but no TC)

You can split at the mixer and run a second set of cables to the camera if you like ... or use a wireless hop.

 

[Antti Pirskanen]

What is the "iusue"?

That the EPIC brain audio inputs are not up to your standards?

Everyone agrees that you can use the camera any way you like. I'm just talking about what I personally believe it is best suited for. News is not its strongest suite.

In fact I would most likely find it difficult to hand over r3d files to a "news organization".

When automobile industry was in it's infancy, in UK there was a law that required self-propelled vehicles to have a crew of three, one of them a pedestrian waving a red flag or a lantern walking 60 yards ahead of each vehicle. In 1878 they made a new law that made the red flag optional and the distance between the vehicle was reduced to 20 yards. Well, nowadays, it is completely legal and acceptable to drive an automobile all by yourself.

While filmmaking is very much a team sport, I think that it will become more and more commonplace for camera operators to perform some of the duties of sound department.. for example recording a backup track that is equal in quality to the audio that is being recorded on a separate sound system. With audio production and signal paths becoming increasingly digital it will surely not take long until there is no quality difference between the audio data that is being recorded on various "bit buckets". A big question is at what stage do you do the A/D conversion. With the newest microphones you can do it at the end of the boom pole in the microhpone itself. After that it is just a question of transmitting that bit stream to the recording device.

In the long term, audio tracks on r3d files should certainly not be viewed only as low quality scratch tracks... technically they do have potential for much more than that. They could act as an archival file format for the original audio, much like the image portion of the r3d file acts as a digital negative suitable for achival. I realize that we are not there yet, but perhaps sometime in the future this will be a completely acceptable way of working.

And just to be clear, I do agree with you that Epics are not well suited for ENG and that everyone is free to use their cameras as they wish.. just wanted to share my thoughts about the importance of audio even when there are no external audio recorders available.

 

[David Battistella]

Antti,

Im not disagreeing with you the epic records great audio now. 100 times better than the 5D. Double system is just wise anytime.

 

[Colin Sheldon]

Its not built with the specific demands for news in mind. Why us that hard to take or to understand. You may think that's a shame. I don't. I did not want to buy a news camera. I would use another camera for a news shoot.

David

You mean the specific demands of low budget indie film (with inexperienced sound people), commercial interviews (with a director and cam op crew), sporting events (with cam op and reporter), simple low budget commercial projects, student films, low or no budget documentaries, oh, and news.

Since the HVX has audio controls it must have been designed for news, right? Same with the EX3? F3? C300? The scarlet especially since it's right in that price range, so shouldn't there be a compelling reason to NOT have audio pots rather then the other way around? It's been a pretty standard feature on prosumer and pro level cameras since the DVX-100. And although I have never, ever shot news it's something that I've used frequently on other cameras.

Maybe you don't? That's nice for you. Not sure why you are having a problem understanding that not everyone is like you.

 

[Steve Wake]

It's going to be up to early adopters to prove that there is a demand for non-digital cinema modules for Scarlet/Epic. RED has set its priorities, established its user base squarely among digital cinema users, and it looks to me like the next step in broadening the user base will be among stills shooters - primarily studio. Everyone else will need to adapt with third party accessories and build not-so-neat rigs. If other uses prove to be popular, then third parties and maybe even RED will build neater solutions.

I'd love it if Sound Devices came out with a Mix Pre in a RED module form. Or better yet for me, a Pix 240 with all the MixPre functionalities and controls, and minus the screen, in a RED module form. But I wouldn't expect them to do that if they figure they'll only sell a few hundred. Will there be sufficient demand in the future? Maybe. Maybe even sooner than later if early adopters prove Scarlet/Epic can generate sufficient demand for such products.

 

[Scott Crawley]

You mean the specific demands of low budget indie film (with inexperienced sound people), commercial interviews (with a director and cam op crew), sporting events (with cam op and reporter), simple low budget commercial projects, student films, low or no budget documentaries, oh, and news.

Since the HVX has audio controls it must have been designed for news, right? Same with the EX3? F3? C300? The scarlet especially since it's right in that price range, so shouldn't there be a compelling reason to NOT have audio pots rather then the other way around? It's been a pretty standard feature on prosumer and pro level cameras since the DVX-100. And although I have never, ever shot news it's something that I've used frequently on other cameras.

Maybe you don't? That's nice for you. Not sure why you are having a problem understanding that not everyone is like you.

Once again, this is a form factor and flexibility design choice. To keep the unit smaller they opted to offer the things you are after in a module; the Pro I/O module that is due to be available soon. With patience and a couple grand it can be yours.

BTW, you keep comparing Scarlet to Pro-Sumer gear, or suggesting that it should be better suited to a less experienced crew. Red did make a clear descision to make Scarlet Pro level and leave the pro-sumer space to the others. Maybe you should consider one of those systems as better suited to your situation and leave it at that.

 

[Colin Sheldon]

Once again, this is a form factor and flexibility design choice. To keep the unit smaller they opted to offer the things you are after in a module; the Pro I/O module that is due to be available soon. With patience and a couple grand it can be yours.

As I stated earlier, there are good reasons to not have knobs on the brain.

My issue is that what I'm after is NOT in a module. Stuart has stated the pro I/O will have full sized xlr, allow for line input but it will NOT have knobs to control audio.

 

[Scott Crawley]

As I stated earlier, there are good reasons to not have knobs on the brain.

My issue is that what I'm after is NOT in a module. Stuart has stated the pro I/O will have full sized xlr, allow for line input but it will NOT have knobs to control audio.

I didn't know the Pro I/O had no pots. I would probably prefer to see pots on it. I can accept that they are absent on the "brain". Touch screen control there is a fair and acceptable trade off, particularly if the Redmote is also capable.

You are confusing me now though. Are you for or against pots on the cam body?

 

[Colin Sheldon]

I didn't know the Pro I/O had no pots. I would probably prefer to see pots on it. I can accept that they are absent on the "brain". Touch screen control there is a fair and acceptable trade off, particularly if the Redmote is also capable.

You are confusing me now though. Are you for or against pots on the cam body?

As a general rule of thumb I think pots belong on the camera body, but I recognize that Red had to make compromises in order to make the brain the size that it is. I can accept their philosophy of making the brain the "essentials" and using modules for everything else. My complaint in this thread was concerning the lack of volume controls on the Pro I/O.

Obviously they make whatever compromises they want, but personally for a Digital Cinema camera I think they should have made the lens height of the Epic the same as the Red One. The only reason I can see for making it different is for their quick release system. IMO (In MY opinion) that extra space could have been used for having lockable Mini XLRs or or pots, or a second EVF/LCD output. For most cinema shooters I think that would be more valuable then the ability to remove a camera from it's baseplate and leave the follow focus, mattebox, lens support, FIZ motors, etc. behind. Me (and everyone I know) simply got a riser plate... which is space that could have been better used.

 

[Scott Crawley]

The only reason I can see for making it different is for their quick release system.

Remember that it is meant to be equally comfortable in stills shooting as it is a cine camera, so your conclusion there is valid, only in so far as the quick release is similar in design to a SLR quick release system. I'm sure I don't have to tell you how far reaching the benefits of that choice are. It goes way beyond the ability to leave the MB et al behind in a hurry.

 

[Stuart English]

...Since the HVX has audio controls it must have been designed for news, right? Same with the EX3? F3? C300? The scarlet especially since it's right in that price range, so shouldn't there be a compelling reason to NOT have audio pots rather then the other way around? It's been a pretty standard feature on prosumer and pro level cameras since the DVX-100....

Well yes actually those cameras - starting with the DVX-100 - were designed from a heritage of "news" operation.... but more to the point, it's not the provision of a rotary pot to allow mic level input gain adjustment that's the issue, instead the problem with pots on the camera body is just that : they are on the camera body and therefore the camera operator is in the way of the sound operator. And as we are no longer dealing with analog sound recordings anyway that "potentiometer" is now a digital gain value so the "pot" can be anything - for us the "pot" is a slider on the GUI, but it could be anything that can talk to the camera, including REDmote's rotary dial if you wanted that.

 

[Scott Crawley]

- for us the "pot" is a slider on the GUI, but it could be anything that can talk to the camera, including REDmote's rotary dial if you wanted that.

Comments like that cause me visions of audio recorders with built-in wireless that could send and receive TC synch, file names and all manner of metadata, as well as the scratch track signal itself. No such beast exists yet. Right?

 

[David Battistella]

Maybe you don't? That's nice for you. Not sure why you are having a problem understanding that not everyone is like you.

Dude,

You need a big relax pill. I am actually the person who came into this thread offering solutions on how to get the best audio out of your EPIC right now.

You are the person having a minor shit fit that you can play with your little knobs.

And it's actually YOU who are attacking every single person in this thread that doesn't think that the little knobs are all that important.

But just as an observation and as one Canadian to another.. you are being a dickhead.

David

 

[Colin Sheldon]

Dude,

You need a big relax pill. I am actually the person who came into this thread offering solutions on how to get the best audio out of your EPIC right now.

You are the person having a minor shit fit that you can play with your little knobs.

And it's actually YOU who are attacking every single person in this thread that doesn't think that the little knobs are all that important.

But just as an observation and as one Canadian to another.. you are being a dickhead.

David

Thank-you for your contributions to this thread regarding the current state of Epic audio. What I've been discussing is the future audio options and possibilities. No one is having fits, it's simply people expressing different opinions about products that won't be available for probably 2-3 years.

My intent was not to attack anyone but to build a case for future feature sets. I appologize if that offended you.

However, if you want to promote civility on this forum I'd recommend doing it without belittling comments and name calling. Otherwise people might think you're from Toronto