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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Mic vs. Line Audio

S

Stephen Wheeler

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So I've received complaints from productions using either our Epic-M or our Scarlet-X about only having mic level in on the cameras. While I think if they are using the camera to record scratch track I don't think it's a big problem, some are using it as their main audio recording device though. (I know why would they do that, but they are and the client gets what the client wants.) In the instance that they are using the camera for their sound recording device and mic level distorts to much when they are working with it in post.

I have two questions:
1. Is there something we are missing about the audio settings to deal with this?

2. Will Line level be enabled in the future? Please say yes and that it will be soon, as this would greatly help us to alleviate our clients concerns.

Stephen Wheeler
Daufenbach Camera
Specializing in RED, Digital Cinema, & 3D
www.daufenbachcamera.com

 
Last I heard from RED is line in will not be enabled on the brain. You will need the infamous pro I/O module for that.....
 
Stephen, if you are feeding line-level signals from a mixer into the mic inputs of an Epic or Scarlet, the signal will be too hot and you will over drive them. If you insert an attenuator inline between the mixer and the camera, you can cut down the level going to the camera. An inline attenuator like a Shure A15AS - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/68600-REG/Shure_A15AS_A15AS_In_Line_Attenuator.html (about $40) has multiple levels controlled by a switch to allow you to match the input sensitivity.
 
Last edited:
Maz Mawlawi said:
Last I heard from RED is line in will not be enabled on the brain. You will need the infamous pro I/O module for that.....
Click to expand...


YES. RED has stated that the brain will always only ever be MIC level audio in.

David
 
David Battistella said:
YES. RED has stated that the brain will always only ever be MIC level audio in.

David
Click to expand...

Ugggh.......

3.5mm jack mic level only and has power on it.........cant think of anything worse if it really has to be 3.5 then at least make it line level. The pictures are so good from that camera and this really gets to me........

I hope this can be reconsidered.
 
Thank you everyone for your feed back on this. Our clients sent a mic level feed to camera for this shoot which worked out but was not ideal for what they wanted. Thank you for the setup you recommended David I will keep it in mind for the next time this comes up. I am a little disappointed that line level will only be enabled in the pro/IO module, but I guess it's another good reason to buy it.

Stephen Wheeler
Daufenbach Camera
Specializing in RED, Digital Cinema, & 3D
www.daufenbachcamera.com

 
Stephen Wheeler said:
While I think if they are using the camera to record scratch track I don't think it's a big problem, some are using it as their main audio recording device though. (I know why would they do that, but they are and the client gets what the client wants.)
Click to expand...
In some cases, the client may be asking for something that's a very bad idea, and I think it's our responsibility to warn them when they're make a bad decision that will affect the quality of their film. Using any digital camera for primary audio and no backup is a very, very, very bad idea in my experience. I have refused to do so in the past, and I always use the camera as a backup and record on a separate sound recorder. It doesn't cost as much as you think, and it also allows the camera to do what it does best -- record pictures -- and allows the sound recorder to do what it does best.
 
Dave Blackham said:
Ugggh.......

3.5mm jack mic level only and has power on it.........cant think of anything worse if it really has to be 3.5 then at least make it line level. The pictures are so good from that camera and this really gets to me........

I hope this can be reconsidered.
Click to expand...

Can someone tell me why using mic level is such a bad idea? I agree it's not the usual thing, (and I totally agree that the 3.5 trs plugs are a PIA) but the quality of the audio seems perfectly fine. What am I missing?

I'm really interested in quality issues, not inconvenience or the like.
 
D Fuller said:
Can someone tell me why using mic level is such a bad idea? I agree it's not the usual thing, (and I totally agree that the 3.5 trs plugs are a PIA) but the quality of the audio seems perfectly fine. What am I missing?

I'm really interested in quality issues, not inconvenience or the like.
Click to expand...


Line level signals are less sucepatble to noise.

Most professional mixers have an option to send line or mic level. I think the audio should be double recorded and send through a mixer before going into the EPIC. Mic level on the EPIC is fine for recording. But I have a backup on a zoom h4 as well.

David
 
Jeremy Wiles said:
Grrrr... it's pretty sad we're being forced to buy this when it should come standard with the camera.
Click to expand...


Would you have made the camera bigger and heavier to have full XLR inputs. I suppose they could have put mini XLR's on the EPIC (since we all had those cables for teh RED one) but I think that it's just a quesiton of space and PICTURE was not going to take a back seat to AUDIO on the brain when they knew they were going to put out the Pro I/O module anyway.

David
 
David Battistella said:
Would you have made the camera bigger and heavier to have full XLR inputs. I suppose they could have put mini XLR's on the EPIC (since we all had those cables for teh RED one) but I think that it's just a quesiton of space and PICTURE was not going to take a back seat to AUDIO on the brain when they knew they were going to put out the Pro I/O module anyway.

David
Click to expand...

Correct David. Having line level power rails and XLR connectors would make the Brain substantially bigger, and if you are feeding line input that implies you have a mixer in your setup. Given the price of audio equipment, that often suggests you are using a multi-channel mixer / recorder too... so for these reasons two mic level input with selectable Phantom power, plus soft audio limiters is what we decided to offer on the Brain.

If you do need line level inputs and full size XLR connectors, then yes the PRO I/O is the appropriate module.
 
Stuart English said:
Correct David. Having line level power rails and XLR connectors would make the Brain substantially bigger, and if you are feeding line input that implies you have a mixer in your setup.

That in turn nowadays often suggests you have a mixer / recorder too... so for these reasons two mic level input with selectable Phantom power, plus soft audio limiters is what we offer.

If you do need line level inputs and full size XLR, then yes the PRO I/O is the appropriate module.
Click to expand...


And this is not to say that the record quality on the EPIC brain is by any means "unacceptable audio" I have found that when the audio is fed properly into the EPIC brain the results are very good because it records a 24 bit 48K audio stream. Having a back up to a solid state recorder is also a very good idea as well.

But you can run EPIC brain as single or double system. It ain't that complicated. The lack of Line level doesn't prevent you from getting excellent audio.

David
 
D Fuller said:
Can someone tell me why using mic level is such a bad idea? I agree it's not the usual thing, (and I totally agree that the 3.5 trs plugs are a PIA) but the quality of the audio seems perfectly fine. What am I missing?

I'm really interested in quality issues, not inconvenience or the like.
Click to expand...

Signal to noise ratio is better. Mic level input requires a low level signal through a cable connection, and using the Epic preamp.

For any filtering or limiting, it's better to use the preamp on a dedicated mixer.
 
Stuart English said:
Correct David. Having line level power rails and XLR connectors would make the Brain substantially bigger, and if you are feeding line input that implies you have a mixer in your setup. Given the price of audio equipment, that often suggests you are using a multi-channel mixer / recorder too... so for these reasons two mic level input with selectable Phantom power, plus soft audio limiters is what we decided to offer on the Brain.

If you do need line level inputs and full size XLR connectors, then yes the PRO I/O is the appropriate module.
Click to expand...

I think the PRO/IO is a great concept to keep the camera small and light for MOS or double system shooting. However, if you are making a really PRO input module, why does it not include potentiometers (knobs) and meters like any pro camera? On a pro shoot, sound dept needs to make adjustments without bothering the shooter, and needs to see sound levels on the camera side at a glance.

I've been harping on this for three years, never a response from Red. This is a significant design flaw.
 
David Battistella said:
Would you have made the camera bigger and heavier to have full XLR inputs. I suppose they could have put mini XLR's on the EPIC (since we all had those cables for teh RED one) but I think that it's just a quesiton of space and PICTURE was not going to take a back seat to AUDIO on the brain when they knew they were going to put out the Pro I/O module anyway.

David
Click to expand...

Very good point. I wonder how much extra weight it would have added.
 
Stuart English said:
Correct David. Having line level power rails and XLR connectors would make the Brain substantially bigger, and if you are feeding line input that implies you have a mixer in your setup. Given the price of audio equipment, that often suggests you are using a multi-channel mixer / recorder too... so for these reasons two mic level input with selectable Phantom power, plus soft audio limiters is what we decided to offer on the Brain.

If you do need line level inputs and full size XLR connectors, then yes the PRO I/O is the appropriate module.
Click to expand...

Respectfully I disagree with a couple of points. Line level audio is just about possible on 3.5mm jacks as the connectors dont have suitable pin contact area if they are in heavy use, power on them makes things worse as theres a high level voltage on the pins which can then cause crackle and even worse if its a mic level as the ratio of power to signal level is greater. It should be simple design issue to put Mic and line level on the audio in connector. There are two issue, one is the use of 3.5mm jack and the other is non switchable level. For our use we would prefer to run Line level from a mixer in to the camera via cable or stereo Radio link and not use a seperate Pro IO module due to its size. The other desirable option is to have a standard receiver module to interface with say an Audio EN2 or Lecto receiver so it works seamlessly. Some broadcast cameras have this facility and would be a great option to have for Epic and Scarlet. No mistake this is a great camera, best there is, but some improvements could be considered for the Audio side of things.
 
David Battistella said:
First off.

The best thing to do is to tell your clients that the level is MIC LEVEL ONLY and they should prepare appropriately. It's not your fault the camera brain accepts only MIC LEVEL audio.

Second.

You should be informed.

Here is a thread where I lay out exactly what I do with excellent results.

http://173.199.159.58/forum/showthread.php?61543-Audio-on-Epic&p=907158&highlight=#post907158


David
Click to expand...

David,
Does the tape out on the mix pre give you two separate audio tracks on the h4n, or does it mix your boom & lav together?
 
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