Meaning of 16.5 stops of Dynamic Range

[John Marchant]

I have - overall technical range is about the same IMHO - but accessible range is better and more understandable for most users.

I hope to benchmark Dragon and Dragon Mono on a xyla-21 asap.

 

[luigivaltulini]

I have - overall technical range is about the same IMHO - but accessible range is better and more understandable for most users.

I hope to benchmark Dragon and Dragon Mono on a xyla-21 asap.

glad to hear it )))

 

[Michael Epple]

I'm excited to see these new tests. It's a little upsetting that red has posted grandios specs when in reality this super advanced sensor still performs under the Alexa in dynamic range. There were big numbers and then a big push for people to buy the upgrade right away, which is starting to feel like people paid for something that was not advertised correctly. I'm still on the fence about upgrading and there are a lot of other options at this point. The Dragon pitch still hasn't sold me.

 

[luigivaltulini]

I'm excited to see these new tests. It's a little upsetting that red has posted grandios specs when in reality this super advanced sensor still performs under the Alexa in dynamic range. There were big numbers and then a big push for people to buy the upgrade right away, which is starting to feel like people paid for something that was not advertised correctly. I'm still on the fence about upgrading and there are a lot of other options at this point. The Dragon pitch still hasn't sold me.

I do not understand ... why would you choose the camera based on the dynamic range?

You do not care the color better, less noise, more resolution, and a roll-off great, and now with the Carbon be more lightweight and more good news?

Alexa is great, DRagon is better.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

I'm excited to see these new tests. It's a little upsetting that red has posted grandios specs when in reality this super advanced sensor still performs under the Alexa in dynamic range. There were big numbers and then a big push for people to buy the upgrade right away, which is starting to feel like people paid for something that was not advertised correctly. I'm still on the fence about upgrading and there are a lot of other options at this point. The Dragon pitch still hasn't sold me.

As explained, this is simply not true.

Alexa LOG has more dynamic range than a single ISO Redgamma 3. Dragon using RedLog Film has more dynamic range than Alexa, and if you combine ISOs of the same image using power windows or other means even more dynamic range. People doing tests I have seen seem to have no understanding whatsoever of RAW post, and they work with a only single ISO in RedGamma 3 - thus the frankly idiotic FUD.

 

[Andy Corleone]

How are so sure about that affirmation? Have you done any test comparing Dragon Agains other similar cameras lets say: F55, C500 or Alexa, I don't have a chance to try a dragon yet but I'm really surprised about the results of the F55 agains Epic. on the last few firmwares they have a new mode called: Cine-EI with Slog3 and a new Optical Low Pass Filter (Very Easy to Change) which is really amazing.

I'm really looking forward to test a Dragon agains the F55. Sometimes I feel a few people on this forum is really bigoted and closed agains other Camera technologies. I don't care if is RED, Canon or Sony. Only thing I care is to own a Camera which is available now and offer the Best Value for the money.

I'm afraid RED Dragon is not just yet

Alexa is great, DRagon is better.

 

[luigivaltulini]

How are so sure about that affirmation? Have you done any test comparing Dragon Agains other similar cameras lets say: F55, C500 or Alexa, I don't have a chance to try a dragon yet but I'm really surprised about the results of the F55 agains Epic. on the last few firmwares they have a new mode called: Cine-EI with Slog3 and a new Optical Low Pass Filter (Very Easy to Change) which is really amazing.

I'm really looking forward to test a Dragon agains the F55. Sometimes I feel a few people on this forum is really bigoted and closed agains other Camera technologies. I don't care if is RED, Canon or Sony. Only thing I care is to own a Camera which is available now and offer the Best Value for the money.

I'm afraid RED Dragon is not just yet

Andy of course, it is not a matter of Fan boy.
But as I said you have to see it on a professional monitor on set.
Then you realize.
Working with Sony for nearly 17 years in the broadcast world and I have access to all the test equipment, the only camera I have not tried is the F65.
In recent months I have also done tests with SKY for the F55 for the live broadcast all connected fiber with Canon 30-300 zoom .... No doubt a nice camera, and in some ways better than the Epic, but I remind you that MX is long time to be on the market. Well Sony has definitely less noise ...
We turned to many Alexa, because this easy in post production, but also because it is a great fantastic camera, and thanks to his ProRes is very easy even for people with a portable "old."
The Canon C300 for the documentary .... now we have some even use the BCCP.
My colleagues see only Alexa, but since I forced the to try and use Dragon in recent times ,are no longer able to go back ... but the problems of post-production and easy of other producers in the television flow , means that only large-scale projects using RED ... but even this will change soon.
For now only advantage of Sony or a C500 is definitely less noise at high ISO, the color rendering many DP does not want to use .. matter of taste, feelings are towards Alexa or RED.
But here, now do not give anything to anyone rather have the pleasure of turning almost always 5oo iso, and DRagon is fucking nice to these iso.
But I think as soon as you do the actual tests in real situation you'll see the difference, of course, mine are just words, everyone is free to do whatever he wants and to think otherwise.
For ME, DRagon is now definitely the best, image is amazing.

eheh and the Mondial soccer 2014 in Brasil is with sony F55 at 4k uhd 60P

 

[Ivan Kovax]

I'm excited to see these new tests. It's a little upsetting that red has posted grandios specs when in reality this super advanced sensor still performs under the Alexa in dynamic range. There were big numbers and then a big push for people to buy the upgrade right away, which is starting to feel like people paid for something that was not advertised correctly. I'm still on the fence about upgrading and there are a lot of other options at this point. The Dragon pitch still hasn't sold me.

You obviously didn't read what John Marchant actually said and clarified in his tests.

Additionally, I rated the MX sensor to be slightly under 12 usable stops. The dragon is very clearly 3 stops more (conservatively ) 3.5 if you are being generous. I'm talking usable stops here.

Basically you use this thing and it sees more or less what your eye sees. It's remarkable. Please tell me which part of this you find upsetting?

I am shooting with an Alexa today. It is hard to blow out highlights. On the dragon, I call it is even harder.

Guess which camera now handles mixed lighting better? You got it - dragon does. And skin tones are spot on too.

The c500 is king in low light, but dragon is no slouch. It is a decent low light camera but not a night vision camera. The c500 is rated as 12 stops (in the lab), usable is... Your guess is as good as mine.

The point is you have dissapointed in a camera that is really quite remarkable in nearly every respect. The image quality is currently only rivalled by the f65, and whose dxomark was independently tested to have put performed ever digital stills camera ever made and received the highest overall mark in history of the website.

If you want instant nnight vision - use the c500. If you want instant sex on the image, try the Alexa. Want insane sharpness use the f65.

Want all of the above in equal portions? Use dragon.

 

[Clayton Burkhart]

I do not understand ... why would you choose the camera based on the dynamic range?

You do not care the color better, less noise, more resolution, and a roll-off great, and now with the Carbon be more lightweight and more good news?

Alexa is great, DRagon is better.

Why would you choose a camera based on dynamic range?
Because it's practically the most critical question one can ask about a camera today.

 

[luigivaltulini]

Why would you choose a camera based on dynamic range?
Because it's practically the most critical question one can ask about a camera today.

if for you the dynamic range is the first color, overexposure is just a matter of choice, I would have chosen Dragon with 13 stops.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Why would you choose a camera based on dynamic range?
Because it's practically the most critical question one can ask about a camera today.

Exactly. Which is why dragon excels. It's DR is unbelievable.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I would say (in a not totally random order), these are the more important aspects of a camera

Color/saturation/precision (also under mixed lights conditions)
DR
Ease of use
Resolution
Flexibility of image
Highspeed

And Dragon excels on all these points.

 

[Scott Crawley]

I would say (in a not totally random order), these are the more important aspects of a camera

Color/saturation/precision (also under mixed lights conditions)
DR
Ease of use
Resolution
Flexibility of image
Highspeed

And Dragon excels on all these points.

I like your short list. For me personally, I might bump Flexibility of Image up a couple notches, but it is very closely tied to Resolution and the Red hot spot; Ease of Use so I tend to lump those three together. As you say the order is not totally random. Going forward I believe that all of the talk of Resolution will shift toward the role it plays in Flexibility. It is an interesting rat hole to go down in a conversation that has otherwise become awfully boring.

I must admit though that I just saw Transcendence in a Sony Digital 4k theater and it frequently looked soft enough to me to draw my attention. Does anyone know if that is being distributed on both file and film formats, or is it one or the other? I wonder if it was a projection issue, scan issue, or some other problem. Ultimately resolution matters for resolution's sake, but it is more than that.

I like to buck trends, so I have poo poo'ed Highspeed, but there really is no getting around the fact that it is a powerful tool to have.

 

[sergio arguello]

IMHO Dynamic range is such a subject of contention. I put forth that Kodak reversal has/had 7 stops before you were in trouble, and it was the most beautiful stocks and images available. that said, dynamic range only matters this much as point and shoot style shooter. If you are actually practicing
cinematography you probably have the ability to measure your lighting and keep your ratios well within 13,14, 15, 16 or more stops.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

IMHO Dynamic range is such a subject of contention. I put forth that Kodak reversal has/had 7 stops before you were in trouble, and it was the most beautiful stocks and images available. that said, dynamic range only matters this much as point and shoot style shooter. If you are actually practicing
cinematography you probably have the ability to measure your lighting and keep your ratios well within 13,14, 15, 16 or more stops.

Agreed.
But there is DR and there is DR.

Compared to the Epic the saturation over more stops and fidelity of the colors is more important than the DR itself to me.

I would have taken the upgrade if it was "only" the same DR as the Epic, but with the improved color-sampling and image carracteristics.

Hell... I kinda like the M over the MX sensor, and that is not because of DR or resolution... Or easier handleable highlights.

Dragon feels a bit like comming "home" to the M sensor. It is all gentle again.
Just better.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

IMHO Dynamic range is such a subject of contention. I put forth that Kodak reversal has/had 7 stops before you were in trouble, and it was the most beautiful stocks and images available. that said, dynamic range only matters this much as point and shoot style shooter. If you are actually practicing
cinematography you probably have the ability to measure your lighting and keep your ratios well within 13,14, 15, 16 or more stops.

In an imaginary world where you have time/budget to fix all dynamic range problems on set yes, in the real world, the better the dynamic range, the more likely you can get a shot that you can salvage later.

That said I have rarely seen more than 13 stops occur on any lit set, and outdoors no lights (documentary) more than 15 is extremely rare, even in the desert at noon. 16 tech stops = 13 or more very clean, nice looking stops with some headroom to curve around a bit in post.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Agreed.
But there is DR and there is DR.

Compared to the Epic the saturation over more stops and fidelity of the colors is more important than the DR itself to me.

I would have taken the upgrade if it was "only" the same DR as the Epic, but with the improved color-sampling and image carracteristics.

Hell... I kinda like the M over the MX sensor, and that is not because of DR or resolution... Or easier handleable highlights.

Dragon feels a bit like comming "home" to the M sensor. It is all gentle again.
Just better.

100% agree.

 

[Paris Remillard]

I rated the MX sensor to be slightly under 12 usable stops. The dragon is very clearly 3 stops more (conservatively ) 3.5 if you are being generous. I'm talking usable stops here.

I am shooting with an Alexa today. It is hard to blow out highlights. On the dragon, I call it is even harder.

Show us. I don't mean that as a challenge. We just keep hearing people make these claims with no visual proof to back it up. And I don't mean this to sound harsh, but I personally don't want to hear what people think. I want to see what people know. I understand that people are excited and happy with their cameras. But excitement does not equal facts. Because all of the images and tests that have been posted so far have been contrary to these claims. And the testers themselves have stated the same. The Alexa still has more DR than Dragon.

And once again, I'll try to reiterate... No one is debating any of the other merits of the Dragon sensor. I'm sure that it's great in many ways. Or how may stops one needs, or whether color is more important than DR or anything else. This thread is about the 16.5+ stops claim. That's it. Just that number. And you even just posted yourself that you would rate it at slightly under 15-15.5 stops useable. That's still not 16.5+. And based on other tests it has less than the 14 stops claimed by Arri for the Alexa. So, like i've been saying, either Red needs to be as conservative as Arri and rate the Dragon at 13.5+ stops, or Arri needs to be as generous as Red and Rate the Alexa at 17.5+ stops.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Show us. I don't mean that as a challenge. We just keep hearing people make these claims with no visual proof to back it up. And I don't mean this to sound harsh, but I personally don't want to hear what people think. I want to see what people know. I understand that people are excited and happy with their cameras. But excitement does not equal facts. Because all of the images and tests that have been posted so far have been contrary to these claims. And the testers themselves have stated the same. The Alexa still has more DR than Dragon.

And once again, I'll try to reiterate... No one is debating any of the other merits of the Dragon sensor. I'm sure that it's great in many ways. Or how may stops one needs, or whether color is more important than DR or anything else. This thread is about the 16.5+ stops claim. That's it. Just that number. And you even just posted yourself that you would rate it at slightly under 15-15.5 stops useable. That's still not 16.5+. And based on other tests it has less than the 14 stops claimed by Arri for the Alexa. So, like i've been saying, either Red needs to be as conservative as Arri and rate the Dragon at 13.5+ stops, or Arri needs to be as generous as Red and Rate the Alexa at 17.5+ stops.

It's not uncommon for people to see things differently. Maybe Arri was more conservative in the DR measurement that RED? Who knows. A colorist I adore told me around NAB about a recent grading demonstration that pulled out 32bits of info from RED MX R3Ds, and suddenly there were one or two EXTRA STOPS OF LIGHT visible. He was shocked, as he's often a huge fan of Alexa, and had never seen R3D's have this much lattitude. So, clearly there is MORE in the RAW encoding than we customiraly see. So maybe RED is taking that into account, who knows.

Either way, I'm not as interested in the semantics of 16.5, and instead I'd rather celebrate RED for what they've accomplished: for only $9000 they allow existing Epic owners to upgrade to one of the most dynamic cameras on earth, in a super light weight config, shooting 6K, with onboard compressed raw. By any measurement, what they have managed to pack into that tiny camera body...is unreal.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

Show us. I don't mean that as a challenge. We just keep hearing people make these claims with no visual proof to back it up. And I don't mean this to sound harsh, but I personally don't want to hear what people think. I want to see what people know. I understand that people are excited and happy with their cameras. But excitement does not equal facts. Because all of the images and tests that have been posted so far have been contrary to these claims. And the testers themselves have stated the same. The Alexa still has more DR than Dragon.

And once again, I'll try to reiterate... No one is debating any of the other merits of the Dragon sensor. I'm sure that it's great in many ways. Or how may stops one needs, or whether color is more important than DR or anything else. This thread is about the 16.5+ stops claim. That's it. Just that number. And you even just posted yourself that you would rate it at slightly under 15-15.5 stops useable. That's still not 16.5+. And based on other tests it has less than the 14 stops claimed by Arri for the Alexa. So, like i've been saying, either Red needs to be as conservative as Arri and rate the Dragon at 13.5+ stops, or Arri needs to be as generous as Red and Rate the Alexa at 17.5+ stops.

SIGH! People don't know how to milk info out of RAW and do a single pass at only one ISO using RedGamma 3. That does not show you all the info. The info is there, it's just that the people doing the tests know nothing about how to dig it out. They're using a curve at debayer - that's like grading the clip before even looking at it.

AND… Just because someone is a great DP, even the best DP ever, does not mean they know a lot about post. The two are not related. That's maybe why some DPs dislike Red - you have to be familiar with post to make the most of it - what you see is not all you could get if you know what you're doing.

And… What Nick said.