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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Matte Box Woes

Hi Curt,

As promised earlier here a couple of tips on making something as solid as ARRI MB's but user friendlier/ easier to maintain:

- the thingis that the flaps are screwed onto are usually directly cast from the main frame of the MB's - its the first thing to brake if you have a full set of flaps on and dogde into something (or something like an actor or sparky dodges into your MB). Its a mean one cause the whole frame has to be replaced.

- All screws that arrest circulating parts/ trays should have a "not falling off" design. Don't know how to express that properly - meaning you can replace them - but they don't just fall off after being carted around in a camera truck for some time.(Due to vibration - happens all the time)

- Light housing needs to be cheap/ easy to change to wide angle housing - they also crack when getting pressured.

- Generally all MB's compatible for 15mm/ 19mm rods if size allows .
(By the way the big MB that HANS the german (hello!) was referring to is MB 14 (MB 16 was issued with the SR III in early 90)

- Less concern with 6 filterstages ( really bit dated film stuff and hardly used to my knowledge (?)- maybe an add on - ok) but rather wide range of Filter formats and trays that can be used for many of them.

- All swing away arms with concentric axes to adjust precise fitting to lenses.

- Secure release on filter trays - have managed to get caught in them and 380$ Tiffen are on the floor.(maybe added insurance policy against stupidity as well

- Enough lee way to adjust spacing between brackets that hold the MB, the swing away and the back element for lenses (donats etc) because of different lens designs and the need to get a FF onto the rods at postion of Focus gear on lens. Some Primes are rather short and it would be nice not to have to change MB because of short lens or long lens (independent of diameter of lens)

- Compatible filter tray dimensions to other manufactors (Not like Chrosziel and ARRI) - Also big enough for nice treats like SCHULZ spray off micro tray!

- lots of love for detail, passion for movies and patience for weird ACs and techs!

Hope this helps
Best of Luck
Volker
 
Curt, I am stoked you are taking on this project! These are pretty cool times we live in when a person or company can just say "Oh, ok, I'll build that, how do ya want it?" like they were making you an omelette--and then actually doing it. I just hope you can do it by October... :biggrin:
 
i'm not a fan of useless posts, but i just wanted to say i have been watching this thread since it's start and would buy a arri-quality viewfactor matte box in a heartbeat. i think for everyone that has commented in here, there are many more waiting in the wings that are excited about this.
 
Volker Ehlers said:
...
- the thingis that the flaps are screwed onto are usually directly cast from the main frame of the MB's - its the first thing to brake if you have a full set of flaps on and dogde into something (or something like an actor or sparky dodges into your MB). Its a mean one cause the whole frame has to be replaced...
Click to expand...

Make this the ultimate MODULAR mattebox. Start off cheap and cheerful attach straight to the lens with Nikon/EOS lenses and upgrade as you like to the mothership of matteboxes coping with the widest front element lenses. Make it so that even with a full set of French flags, sidewings, you can still fold them flat to the front when transporting the camera around. Make French flag foldable in half like some Chrosziels - saves space and bent French flags!

Volker Ehlers said:
...
- All screws that arrest circulating parts/ trays should have a "not falling off" design. Don't know how to express that properly - meaning you can replace them - but they don't just fall off after being carted around in a camera truck for some time.(Due to vibration - happens all the time) ...
Click to expand...

Don't use countersunk screws. Use nylok nuts, or the releasable type of "Loctite" threadlock fluid with slotted/Allen key cheesehead bolts. Less prone to head stripping or working loose with vibration.

Volker Ehlers said:
...
- Light housing needs to be cheap/ easy to change to wide angle housing - they also crack when getting pressured. ...
Click to expand...

Use a flexible non-brittle plastic for the housing, but don't rely on it for mechanical strength or precision alignment. Ie there are other minimalist metal components that fix mounting points precisely. The plastic then just becomes lightproof cladding. Replaceable and hopefully cheaper.

Volker Ehlers said:
...
- Generally all MB's compatible for 15mm/ 19mm rods if size allows .
(By the way the big MB that HANS the german (hello!) was referring to is MB 14 (MB 16 was issued with the SR III in early 90) ...
Click to expand...

A multipurpose 15mm/19mm rod support system with lots of vertical height adjustment and someway of coping with the different standard widths between the rods.

Volker Ehlers said:
...
- Less concern with 6 filterstages ( really bit dated film stuff and hardly used to my knowledge (?)- maybe an add on - ok) but rather wide range of Filter formats and trays that can be used for many of them. ...
Click to expand...

Modular approach allows any number of filterstages, although 6 is probably the maximum useable number! Each stage can be fixed or rotating (rotating being more expensive of course!)

Volker Ehlers said:
...
- All swing away arms with concentric axes to adjust precise fitting to lenses.

- Secure release on filter trays - have managed to get caught in them and 380$ Tiffen are on the floor.(maybe added insurance policy against stupidity as well

- Enough lee way to adjust spacing between brackets that hold the MB, the swing away and the back element for lenses (donats etc) because of different lens designs and the need to get a FF onto the rods at postion of Focus gear on lens. Some Primes are rather short and it would be nice not to have to change MB because of short lens or long lens (independent of diameter of lens)

- Compatible filter tray dimensions to other manufactors (Not like Chrosziel and ARRI) - Also big enough for nice treats like SCHULZ spray off micro tray!

- lots of love for detail, passion for movies and patience for weird ACs and techs! ...
Click to expand...

No further suggestions for these!

Great ideas Volker! :biggrin:
 
Thanks for the input guys. I've completed my dissection of the MB20... I'm fairly certain I know every nut and bolt in the assembly. So far I have counted 60 custom parts in just the front section alone... that doesn't include the dozens of screws. After looking through it I noticed a number of opportunities to make a better design - I'm only going to use this model as reference for spacings and general size of components and now I have a model to give you guys as size comparison when my design is finished. I will start a fresh design tonight and hopefully I can get all your feedback on the design direction.

I also have a couple other mateboxes here on my desk. Have you guys ever used a Vocas MB-450? Its got a nifty swing out feature but it seems overly complicated.
 
Brook Willard said:
Curt, check out Arri's MB20 with all the trimmings. That's just about my favorite MB ever. I wish it would swing out... but other than that, it's amazing.
Click to expand...

Doesn't this model have a Swing Away module?


Curt said:
I will start a fresh design tonight and hopefully I can get all your feedback on the design direction.
Click to expand...

Awesome news, Curt. I look forward to it.
 
When you're modeling/designing your MB, be sure to keep the key features of the Arri swing-away:

Swing-away without a 90˚ stop.
The two screws that adjust small angles of the MB, counteracting sag.
The in/out [on axis of lens] screw adjustment with cam lock.
The vertical adjustment of the MB [perhaps there's a more elegant toolless solution for this one...].

You rock, man...
 
We indie-filmmaker often have to steal a shot (no permission for some locations), we need to be fast and flexible, keep us in mind during design.
 
Stealing shots or not, everything always has to be fast and flexible. Though with due respect, I'd rather have a full-featured mattebox that does everything I'll ever need in a fast and effective manner rather than a guerilla does-the-bare-minimum-fast-and-cheap mattebox. I think the goal should be legitimate production. :)
 
where do we sign up. I'll put money down on a reservation for the Remote FF and Mattebox as I need these for when my RED arrives, which is hopefully soon :)
 
Well Mr. Brook, you are the moderator and you can remind me on legality. If the term "..steeling the shot.." irritated you then I can only appologize. Nevertheless most of the RED buyers are Indie-Filmmaker and I haven't yet met a Indie-Filmmmaker who didn't had once in a time the problem of getting quickly out of the location.

This doesn't mean a "..guerilla....bare-minimum-fast-and-cheap matteb..." but a request for a higher flexibility in using the tool then what is in the market today. Actually I think the image of a situation where you need to get quickly in and out of the scene invites to think about tools which are more resistent and done by better (and also more expensive) materials then those where you have all the time and comfort to fix with clips and screws all the parts together.
 
istvanttt said:
Well Mr. Brook, you are the moderator and you can remind me on legality. If the term "..steeling the shot.." irritated you then I can only appologize. Nevertheless most of the RED buyers are Indie-Filmmaker and I haven't yet met a Indie-Filmmmaker who didn't had once in a time the problem of getting quickly out of the location.

This doesn't mean a "..guerilla....bare-minimum-fast-and-cheap matteb..." but a request for a higher flexibility in using the tool then what is in the market today. Actually I think the image of a situation where you need to get quickly in and out of the scene invites to think about tools which are more resistent and done by better (and also more expensive) materials then those where you have all the time and comfort to fix with clips and screws all the parts together.
Click to expand...

I think the Mattebox was one of the least problems when I was in such situations, mainly it was the camera itself that needed too much time for setup ( measuring and setting aperture & focus and then hope enough film stock is left in the mag ).
 
istvanttt said:
Well Mr. Brook, you are the moderator and you can remind me on legality. If the term "..steeling the shot.." irritated you then I can only appologize. Nevertheless most of the RED buyers are Indie-Filmmaker and I haven't yet met a Indie-Filmmmaker who didn't had once in a time the problem of getting quickly out of the location.
Click to expand...

Oh no! You definitely misunderstood me, apologies if it seemed like an attack. Trust me, I've stolen many a shot... that didn't bother me at all! My point was that when I'm in a situation when I need to steal a shot, I like having a minimal package that works fast and low-key. When I have a location or I'm in a studio, I like a package with all the trimmings and features. I just didn't want to lose anything from the potential package to make it easier on guerilla locations. :)
 
istvanttt said:
This doesn't mean a "..guerilla....bare-minimum-fast-and-cheap matteb..." but a request for a higher flexibility in using the tool then what is in the market today. Actually I think the image of a situation where you need to get quickly in and out of the scene invites to think about tools which are more resistent and done by better (and also more expensive) materials then those where you have all the time and comfort to fix with clips and screws all the parts together.
Click to expand...

I don't quite understand this request. A more flexable a matte box is the more clips and screws it will have. So your request for more flexability will be accompanied with more clips and screws. Also the length of time it takes for a focus puller to set up a matte box or complete camera system has much much more to do with there experience then the equipment. One of my main focus pullers I use has been doing it for over 25 years, he never rushes and even though he looks like he is moving slow at times he is so fluent and smooth that he can reconfigure the camera faster then anyone else I use.
 
Brook Willard said:
Oh no! You definitely misunderstood me, apologies if it seemed like an attack. Trust me, I've stolen many a shot... that didn't bother me at all! My point was that when I'm in a situation when I need to steal a shot, I like having a minimal package that works fast and low-key. When I have a location or I'm in a studio, I like a package with all the trimmings and features. I just didn't want to lose anything from the potential package to make it easier on guerilla locations. :)
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I indeed missunderstood!

Beside this I totally agree with all the last comments, indeed the MB is probably the lasty of the problems, like flexibility means also having modularity in using the tool, so I was not really clear when I said I don't want screws around. Probably the two neads are just not possible to marry and I should not have distracted the development of ideas. I agree that we are going to get a new culture in the use of this tools and it is necessary to keep the requests to the engeneers focused on what is needed first. So just lets put the "guerilla" idea aside:))
 
OK, so I was going to post some first renderings of the mattebox on Monday but got tied up. I finally had an opportunity to take a look at some of the higher end MB's at a couple rental places and I think I'll have something up by the end of the week.
 
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