Marvel's Daredevil - Shot on Dragon

[Marc Wielage]

I want to apologize and correct my statement that perhaps Daredevil was shot on Alexa.... I was 100% mis informed by one of the show's directors who certainly should know what camera was being used told me that he was certain it was Alexa.

I worked on a Red feature a year or two ago and overheard the producer telling somebody on the phone we were shooting on Alexa. After he got off, I excused myself and said, "BTW, we're on Red Dragon." He shrugged and said, "whatever," and made another call. They don't care. They're just worried about the actors performance, the story, and whether the director is making their day.

 

[jake blackstone]

I worked on a Red feature a year or two ago and overheard the producer telling somebody on the phone we were shooting on Alexa. After he got off, I excused myself and said, "BTW, we're on Red Dragon." He shrugged and said, "whatever," and made another call. They don't care. They're just worried about the actors performance, the story, and whether the director is making their day.

It couldn't happen two years ago. Dragon just started being delivered in any appreciable numbers at the end of 2013

 

[jake blackstone]

Speed changes from an edit do not carry over in Resolve (via xml or edl) if that's the issue they are having... But that's not a camera issue, any speed change is screwed in Resolve.

Well, EDL by design only capable of constant speed change. XML on the other hand does support ramps, but frankly, it's a non issue, if you are doing a roundtrip via XML or AAF. Resolve doesn't need to do anything speed-wise, because, if you are doing the roundtrip back to NLE, Resolve simply mutes that speed change or ramp and renders those shots at the normal speed. Ramps are carried over via exported XML or AAF. The NLE will automatically reapply the ramp to the shots back in NLE. If you you insist on finishing in Resolve, ramps are gets carried over with XML or AAF, but the caveat, you can't edit those. This will get changed in V12 though.

 

[Joost de jonge]

They went a little crazy with the grain but further the look and feel I find totally superawesome. Very inspiring.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

So here is the answer about Netflix and speed ramps:

the quality control at Netflix will except a movie acquisition with potential speed ramp artifacting issues but not its own in house, 4 k based ghosting.

1. Internal QC at Netflix sets a higher technical threshold when vetting there in house productions.

2. The 4 k resolution on the dragon renders greater detail otherwise not detected in standard or lower definition formats. Thus the residual artifact of the post sped ramp are only detectable or, shall we say, actionable in the world of 4 k .

Pretty interesting and basically flattering to Red and other hi rez cameras but I would think one could smooth out the results of hi rez aliasing....

 

[Nick Morrison]

So here is the answer about Netflix and speed ramps:

the quality control at Netflix will except a movie acquisition with potential speed ramp artifacting issues but not its own in house, 4 k based ghosting.

1. Internal QC at Netflix sets a higher technical threshold when vetting there in house productions.

2. The 4 k resolution on the dragon renders greater detail otherwise not detected in standard or lower definition formats. Thus the residual artifact of the post sped ramp are only detectable or, shall we say, actionable in the world of 4 k .

Pretty interesting and basically flattering to Red and other hi rez cameras but I would think one could smooth out the results of hi rez aliasing....

Wow...interesting. Any word if the season 2 will be shot at higher resolutions? Like 5K or 6K?

 

[Marc Wielage]

It couldn't happen two years ago. Dragon just started being delivered in any appreciable numbers at the end of 2013

A year or two ago. I believe it was November 2013.

 

[M Most]

Where's the new spec? I got nothin' on Google. I do have the specs from Amazon.

I have no idea if they publicly post it or not (probably not). I get it from them every time we start a new Netflix show.

 

[M Most]

Not entirely sure, but I believe Marco Polo was filmed on f55.

As are the upcoming Wet Hot American Summer, and Sense8. But this isn't a contest. I was just trying to make it clear that Netflix does not demand any particular camera. They just demand 4K origination. And clearly that makes Red one of the contenders on any Netflix project. It doesn't make it the "default choice," the "only choice," or the "Netflix choice."

 

[Sidney L. Plaut]

As are the upcoming Wet Hot American Summer, and Sense8. But this isn't a contest. I was just trying to make it clear that Netflix does not demand any particular camera. They just demand 4K origination. And clearly that makes Red one of the contenders on any Netflix project. It doesn't make it the "default choice," the "only choice," or the "Netflix choice."

Just out of curiosity, do any of you know for a fact if Alexa is "allowed" on a netflix show?

 

[M Most]

Just out of curiosity, do any of you know for a fact if Alexa is "allowed" on a netflix show?

To my knowledge, and in my recent experience, they don't want their original productions shooting anything that is not a 4K capture (probably a good thing). So yes, that includes Alexa.

And yes, it also means that at least a few of the DP's on those shows are not using the tools they might have wanted to use, which to me is NOT a good thing.

 

[Nick Morrison]

To my knowledge, and in my recent experience, they don't want their original productions shooting anything that is not a 4K capture (probably a good thing). So yes, that includes Alexa.

And yes, it also means that at least a few of the DP's on those shows are not using the tools they might have wanted to use, which to me is NOT a good thing.

Interesting.

I guess Weapon is a way of making RED platform even more appealing to productions like this...that require straight to edit workflows...

 

[M Most]

Interesting.

I guess Weapon is a way of making RED platform even more appealing to productions like this...that require straight to edit workflows...

No (well, very, very few) high end studio level production uses a "straight to edit" workflow. That's because of a number of factors, such as the need to QC camera original files (usually accomplished by making dailies from them), properly protect and archive them, provide double system sound sync (whether the time codes match or even exist or not), identify any problems, provide consistent color across scenes, and allow for time to properly do these things on shows that can and often do deliver 4+ hours of material every day. And often from multiple camera types and multiple shooting units. The vast majority of studio level (i.e., Netflix level) productions utilize near set dailies setups to allow for those steps, all of which are expected by large studios and none of which are done by the editorial department. And this is the case regardless of the shooting location.

 

[Nick Morrison]

No (well, very, very few) high end studio level production uses a "straight to edit" workflow. That's because of a number of factors, such as the need to QC camera original files (usually accomplished by making dailies from them), properly protect and archive them, provide double system sound sync (whether the time codes match or even exist or not), identify any problems, provide consistent color across scenes, and allow for time to properly do these things on shows that can and often do deliver 4+ hours of material every day. And often from multiple camera types and multiple shooting units. The vast majority of studio level (i.e., Netflix level) productions utilize near set dailies setups to allow for those steps, all of which are expected by large studios and none of which are done by the editorial department. And this is the case regardless of the shooting location.

Gotcha. So in that case, how would Weapon help? Would the onboard LUT driven Prores proxies still save time? Or no?

 

[Nick Timmons]

Too bad they couldn't light it for shit...

 

[Brad Hawkins]

Too bad they couldn't light it for shit...

Wow... LOL

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

No (well, very, very few) high end studio level production uses a "straight to edit" workflow. That's because of a number of factors, such as the need to QC camera original files (usually accomplished by making dailies from them), properly protect and archive them, provide double system sound sync (whether the time codes match or even exist or not), identify any problems, provide consistent color across scenes, and allow for time to properly do these things on shows that can and often do deliver 4+ hours of material every day. And often from multiple camera types and multiple shooting units. The vast majority of studio level (i.e., Netflix level) productions utilize near set dailies setups to allow for those steps, all of which are expected by large studios and none of which are done by the editorial department. And this is the case regardless of the shooting location.

Correct.

And it takes the SAME amount of LABOR to create H264 viewing dailies (DAX/PIX/etc.) + MXF DNXHD edit media from 6K Dragon as it does Alexa ProRes 444 LOG C. It's BULLSHIT to say it's a "harder" workflow. It's the SAME worflow - just from a different original negative.

Having ProRes on Weapon does NOT actually benefit high-end productions beyond "perception" - which is, of course, more powerful than "reality".

But ProRes is GREAT for the middle/low-end guys cutting on Premiere and FCPX - and yes - I hope more high end folks find how awesome Premiere is - but it's close to impossible to get folks in the TV biz to change.

I'd also not that it is a bit easier/faster with respect to computer resources to rip H264 + MXF from ProRes as opposed to RAW - but again -

SAME EXACT LABOR to handle ALEXA, DRAGON, WEAPON, F55 on a high end show. And yeah, I know, LONGER transfer times for F55 RAW - which nobody shoots for TV.

Wireless CDL from LiveGrade to camera will have a MUCH greater impact than ProRes for television.

 

[M Most]

I'd also not that it is a bit easier/faster with respect to computer resources to rip H264 + MXF from ProRes as opposed to RAW - but again -

SAME EXACT LABOR to handle ALEXA, DRAGON, WEAPON, F55 on a high end show. And yeah, I know, LONGER transfer times for F55 RAW - which nobody shoots for TV.

All true. The last part, though, depends on how you define "TV." I'm having a bit of struggle with that myself....

Only things I would add are that archiving is particularly affected by format choice, especially on large features (and some "TV..."). On those shows, shooting formats like Arriraw (especially Open Gate) or F55 RAW can produce some pretty big data loads when the production hands over 4 or more hours of footage (which they routinely do because nobody shoots only one camera any more). At close to 1TB per hour for Arriraw Open Gate, a typical shooting day can easily exceed multiple LTO6 tapes, and the time it takes to write and verify them can exceed the 24 hours or so that you get to turn them around. And I won't even mention Arri 65 (although I just did)....

The other thing is that even though it does take longer to copy/ingest F55 RAW files (which I assume is what you mean by "transfer time"), they do generally process faster than Red, even with a Rocket X card, on most decent commodity hardware. So the overall throughput for file management is affected in terms of getting the files in and the archived copies out, but turnaround for dailies is generally a bit faster. Of course, all of this stuff depends on your setup, your workflow (i.e., how many parts of the process you can do concurrently), and how optimized your hardware are software are for the task.

 

[Jesse Conti]

What a fantastic show! Well written, emotionally engaging, lit exactly the way it should have been, great choreographed fight scenes, a thick plot and just an overall class A production. Cannot wait for season 2!

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

All true. The last part, though, depends on how you define "TV." I'm having a bit of struggle with that myself....

Only things I would add are that archiving is particularly affected by format choice, especially on large features (and some "TV..."). On those shows, shooting formats like Arriraw (especially Open Gate) or F55 RAW can produce some pretty big data loads when the production hands over 4 or more hours of footage (which they routinely do because nobody shoots only one camera any more). At close to 1TB per hour for Arriraw Open Gate, a typical shooting day can easily exceed multiple LTO6 tapes, and the time it takes to write and verify them can exceed the 24 hours or so that you get to turn them around. And I won't even mention Arri 65 (although I just did)....

The other thing is that even though it does take longer to copy/ingest F55 RAW files (which I assume is what you mean by "transfer time"), they do generally process faster than Red, even with a Rocket X card, on most decent commodity hardware. So the overall throughput for file management is affected in terms of getting the files in and the archived copies out, but turnaround for dailies is generally a bit faster. Of course, all of this stuff depends on your setup, your workflow (i.e., how many parts of the process you can do concurrently), and how optimized your hardware are software are for the task.

I agree on all your comments Mike - go figure.

Mike - just out of curiosity - do you know any TV shows - as defined as - "narrative episodic content" that are shooting RAW on non RED cameras? (F55/ARRI) - other than GAME OF THRONES?? I'm sure there might be a "few" - just curious how many a "few" is??

Ask any DIT or on-set/near DCT (I made up that title for Dailies Creation Technician - which is really what that role should be called IMO - as it's almost always more technical than "colorist" - and most times the DIT is working with the DP on the CDL's aka "color" - so the person making dailies is typically what I would consider a technician) what RAW format is "easier" for TV and they will all tell you 6K RED vs. F55 4K or ARRIRAW.

In fact, my argument for Dragon vs Alexa for TV is ... with Dragon ... you can shoot your TV show in 6K RAW for the SAME cost as ALEXA HD ProRes - and that is fact. And it is cheaper than F55 RAW or ARRI RAW by a fair amount.