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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Magic lantern... Dude.

Luke Neumann said:
I was out filming a project yesterday and decided to grab a quick 5D3/RED Epic comparison shot. Not posting any side by sides or thoughts, just the raw files for download. People can come to their own conclusions, I personally know why I use the Epic. :)

http://neumannfilms.net/2013/05/21/red-epic5d3-raw-tests/
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot Luke for the effort. This goes in the direction of making informed decisions. I really can see that jello can be a problem. Can someone have the epic and 5d3raw stuck together on a tripod and make a couple of pans. It would be very much appreciated. Making some decisions on how to shoot a project and only have the 5dwith me. The small form factor of this thing is just a dream for this particular shoot and it would be great to see how jellowing will compare.
 
Peter Majtan said:
Bruce - from what I have seen so far the RAW jello is much worse. We have just completed a TVC for Orange Israel shot primarily on 5DmkIII (without the ML) and my Scarlet. There seems to be some circuity that deal with the jello (to some degree) that the ML is bypassing, as the jello in the RAW seems much worse. Hard to tell as you will need to have two bodies attached together - one with ML and one without - and do the same motion shooting the same scene...

:sifone: Peter
Click to expand...


there are plenty of ways to test rolling shutter, just get some kind of motor... maybe a drill, and attach a piece of cardboard with a diameter line.
 
Peter Majtan said:
You must have missed the part where I did not complain about image quality or the ability of the RAW to be graded. The issue here is the massive image distortion in all non-tripod shots - the jello effect. While this might look watchable to some while looking at it on the web - please do not try to tell me that you watched the distortion on a 60" and it looked "awesome"...

:sifone: Peter
Click to expand...
You must have missed the idea, that there is no camera, that is perfect for every situation, as you also conveniently "forget" the rolling shutter on Red camera. 5d is not perfect for every situation by any means, but if one would take it's limitations into an account during the shoot, now they can create truly stunning images and no amount of whining will change that.
 
jake blackstone said:
I was answering a complain, that in Vimeo it looks bad. The whole point of my post is NOT to use Vimeo and to look at the original RAW quality.

You need to follow directions at ML site.
1. Download raw2dng app here http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5508.0
2. Drop your file on the app and it will create a new folder with DNG files.
3. Open DNG with AE. Do not use Resolve.
4. Use RAW settings to adjust the image before import.
5. Export DPX or Prores 444
6. Open it in Resolve.
Click to expand...
I don't have computer for this. I downloaded RedCine with RedPlayer for Windows, it gives me always error when I try to open the R3D file. So, I can't compare anything. :(
 
If you think the RAW developments made by ML are meaningless you have your head buried in some deep RED sand... for no reason.

Regardless if you despise working with a DSLR or love it... This will only help in the development of RAW cameras moving forward! Leveling the playing field is what it's all about. And as college professor I can tell you that film school is definitely NOT a requirement, I wod actually go as far as saying it can be a scam. I think a college degree is great because let's face it, not many at cut out for this kind of work. But again, you don't have to go to school to make it in this industry. Not even close!!!
 
The quality of the hacked 5d Mark III is very high. It has a lot of limitations, it won't be easy to use but the quality is undeniable. The Epic is much better resolution wise, and holds an edge on latitude and even sensitivity IMO. Look at the pine with the red thingies behind the house, it's a thing of beauty in the Epic. Also it's easier to use professionally and the workflow is very much established. I've played a bit with Bruce's footage and tried to match both cameras. Click the link for full resolution.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9889/pruebaku.jpg
 
jake blackstone said:
You must have missed the idea, that there is no camera, that is perfect for every situation, as you also conveniently "forget" the rolling shutter on Red camera. 5d is not perfect for every situation by any means, but if one would take it's limitations into an account during the shoot, now they can create truly stunning images and no amount of whining will change that.
Click to expand...

It's not about whining, it's about making sure producers and others who can dictate the acquisition cam are not misled. Skew on any 5D is way, way worse than on an Epic or Red One MX.

And as to "you can make beautiful images anyway" yes, but what images can't you make, that's the real issue, and if you were using a better camera with fewer limitations, how many MORE great shots could that same team have gotten in the same amount of time, and how much BETTER would they look? These great shots don't show what could have been, only what managed to be, despite the "DSLR handicap".

That's my general argument, using a camera that stops you form doing a lot of things is wasting a portion of the potential of the hard work and talent of the crew and performers using that camera. And they might not even realize it. I find that infuriating, and sad.
 
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Luke Neumann said:
I think it would cut well with Epic footage. Best uses - Low budget narrative work, personal projects where you don't want to stand out with a big camera, vacation videos, b roll on bigger shoots, green screen work for low budget productions, low light shooting etc.

It has real world usefulness.
Click to expand...

I agree with soem of your list, but green screen on a line-skipped <720p (of actual resolved data) camera is not a smart idea, not even a little bit.
 
Antony Newman said:
@Rob,

Do you think there is any hope for people like me who have never been to film school - but have dreams of 'telling great stories through film?
Should we give up now - or do the best they can and strive towards making their dreams come true?

I also note that some people who are not classically trained, can find meaning and structure in places where those that are cannot.
Maybe their measure of success in this field is one of self-expression rather than box-office success?

AJ
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that. You can walk a mile with no shoes, it's possible, just easier with a good pair of comfortable ones. However, if you think you can make movies without money that is not realistic, even if cameras are free. I woudl also encourage you to try and get a university degree, if not in film then something else. It puts you in another world, and I'd say a better one.
 
I need to film an underwater miniature in a pool next week - my early tests with 5DMK II + VAF 5D2 filter are pretty impressive and will intercut seamlessly with RED. Another plus side is that I don't need to be nervous about dropping Scarlet in the water. There's a lot of resolution in there and can definitely be used as B cam in cases like these.
 
RivaiC said:
Industry has change. Whether you go to school or not. You have to make sure that you mix with the right people and get a good information. It's not about go to school vs not go to school at all. The nature is too strong for logic. The road is rough, anything good does not come easy. But you should not give up and have to really focus. Business is about networking, knowing savvy tech does not automatically get you work. Going to school is also part of networking as beginner. You dont only learn technical stuff there. You mix with people. These people will eventually get into the industry one day and so you are. Finding those good guy is the hard part.

R
Click to expand...

That is not the whole story. Being and seeming educated comes with being educated, and those people in power will not take you seriously if they feel your intellectual level is way beneath theirs - it doesn't matter how much you try to mingle with them. I'm sorry to say this, but with very few exceptions I can always tell someone who has spent few years in school. Their thinking is different, their logic, their ability to understand abstraction, and most importantly their ability to learn new things quickly. (Again, yes there are exceptions, but very, very few) Some very disciplined and exceptional people will read books on their own and learn on their own and be able to achieve anything they want, but few will. Have a look at statistics about the success level of Uni grads vs non-grads. It will scare you right into the best school you can afford.

I'm not trying to be a snob here: I'm saying go to school, any way you can. Some things are best learned on set, and others can only be learned through books (and most easily in a classroom).
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
i wouldn't call a place where few people are educated or formally trained "greener pastures".
Click to expand...

That's one hell of an assumption you made there... So according to you people outside of Hollywood lack both education and formal training? Hmmmmmm....

:sifone: Peter
 
he's talking about measured resolution. although i haven't seen a measured resolution chart for the alpha raw-mode, which my eyes tell me carries closer to 1080 than 720. in any case, not sure what the problemos are about... if somebody can make this thing work for them to get good shots for their project that's cool, right?

in conclusion... 'better than what they had'
 
Álex Montoya said:
The quality of the hacked 5d Mark III is very high. It has a lot of limitations, it won't be easy to use but the quality is undeniable. The Epic is much better resolution wise, and holds an edge on latitude and even sensitivity IMO. Look at the pine with the red thingies behind the house, it's a thing of beauty in the Epic. Also it's easier to use professionally and the workflow is very much established. I've played a bit with Bruce's footage and tried to match both cameras. Click the link for full resolution.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/9889/pruebaku.jpg
Click to expand...
Bruce's footage?
 
I like this debate, and I am going to get in on it. Gonna tangent the shit out of this thread for a little. Warning.. I don't mean this in any aggressive or egotistical way. Just saying it like it is. Or like i see it.

I am theoretically (and practically in terms of hours) more educated than most people I have met, having spent a large chunk of my adult life in tertiary institutions. Started off with genetic engineering in Sydney (one of only 20 accepted nation wide into the course), I quit after 5 days because the course bored me, then did psychology/german major instead. I can read Kafka, Freud, Brecht and Goethe in their original text... and I still remember nearly every Mental Illness that matters in the DSM ... but I quit one semester before graduating.

Took a few years off then did film school. Before I graduated film school I was offered a well paying freelance gig which I left film school to take.

So technically I have no degree other than high school. Yet put me in a room with anybody and they would assume I have a masters or phd. But technically since I have no degree, Hollywood wouldn't bother giving me a second look? I am "below the line"? I have spoken to many of these people "above the line" and many are my good friends. But some (and sometimes a tad more than that) are socially inept, narcissistic, egotistical or as boring as batshit works of art. Sometimes it is like talking to a robot with a broken logic board. Or a kitchen table.

I have built a career with nothing but my own will power, a little insanity and a touch of luck, know as as much if not more about my craft than most, earn a great living, meet many of the A-list DPs and Directors from around the world... yet I have never once been asked whether I have a degree.

If somebody were to judge me to not exist "above the line" because I don't have an expensive official piece of paper, then, you know what? Fuck them. You could make the argument that I have actually been well educated, but I would counter that that paper means more to many people than my intelligence and way of thinking (as you clearly elocuted in a previous post). And some people can't wrap their minds around this. Which is fine.

Seriously. I understand that this is the way it is, that that little piece of paper from NYU or Harvard means something to many people when hiring new staff no matter the profession, but honestly... it doesn't mean a thing in terms of how truly intelligent, educated, talented or experienced a person is. I understand you say that it is the education (most easily done in class) which is important. I get that point. And in a way I even agree. But it is the "above the line" which rubs me the wrong way... and those two are somehow intrinsically tied yet very different at the same time.

Now back to reality, and raw cameras ;)

EDIT: In an hugely ironic twist of fate several A-List (along with non-A-list) universities in the United States and elsewhere have picked up on a slightly viral documentary film I shot in Fukushima recently and are actually using it to educate their students in Documentary/ Film class. Yeh, I may be below the line, but these same places are using my work to educate others on how to be above the line.

I fucking love it.
Robert Ruffo New said:
That is not the whole story. Being and seeming educated comes with being educated, and those people in power will not take you seriously if they feel your intellectual level is way beneath theirs - it doesn't matter how much you try to mingle with them. I'm sorry to say this, but with very few exceptions I can always tell someone who has spent few years in school. Their thinking is different, their logic, their ability to understand abstraction, and most importantly their ability to learn new things quickly. (Again, yes there are exceptions, but very, very few) Some very disciplined and exceptional people will read books on their own and learn on their own and be able to achieve anything they want, but few will. Have a look at statistics about the success level of Uni grads vs non-grads. It will scare you right into the best school you can afford.

I'm not trying to be a snob here: I'm saying go to school, any way you can. Some things are best learned on set, and others can only be learned through books (and most easily in a classroom).
Click to expand...
 
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Amen, Ivan!

Ivan Kovax said:
I like this debate, and I am going to get in on it. Gonna tangent the shit out of this thread for a little. Warning.. I don't mean this in any aggressive or egotistical way. Just saying it like it is. Or like i see it.

I am theoretically (and practically in terms of hours) more educated than most people I have met, having spent a large chunk of my adult life in tertiary institutions. Started off with genetic engineering in Sydney (on of only 20 accepted nation wide into the course), I quit after 5 days because the course bored me, then did psychology/german major instead. I can read Kafka, Freud, Brecht and Goethe in their original text... and I still remember nearly every Mental Illness that matters in the DSM ... but I quit one semester before graduating.

Took a few years off then did film school. Before I graduated film school I was offered a well paying freelance gig which I left film school to take.

So technically I have no degree other than high school. Yet put me in a room with anybody and they would assume I have a masters or phd. But technically since I have no degree, Hollywood wouldn't bother giving me a second look? I am "below the line"? I have spoken to many of these people "above the line" and many are my good friends. But some (and sometimes a tad more than that) are socially inept, narcissistic, egotistical or as boring as batshit works of art. Sometimes it is like talking to a robot. Or a kitchen table.

I have built a career with nothing but my own will power, a little insanity and a touch of luck, know as as much if not more about my craft than most, earn a great living, meet many of the A-list DPs and Directors from around the world... yet I have never once been asked whether I have a degree.

If somebody were to judge me to not exist "above the line" because I don't have an expensive official piece of paper, then, you know what? Fuck them. You could make the argument that I have actually been well educated, but I would counter that that paper means more to many people than my intelligence and way of thinking (as you clearly elocuted in a previous post). And some people can't wrap their minds around this. Which is fine.

Seriously. I understand that this is the way it is, that that little piece of paper from NYU or Harvard means something to many people when hiring new staff no matter the profession, but honestly... it doesn't mean a thing in terms of how truly intelligent, educated, talented or experienced a person is. I understand you say that it is the education (most easily done in class) which is important. I get that point. But it is the "above the line" which rubs me the wrong way... and those two are somehow intrinsically tied yet very different at the same time.
Click to expand...
 
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