Light Iron color for DSMC2 and post

[Michael Epple]

Does anyone know if there are any talks between Red and Light Iron/Panavision about bringing their color science to the DSMC2 cameras that are not Panavised? I would pay for this product. From what I see and hear, their color science is far superior in color separation and giving non-primary colors the same boost as primary ones. I am very happy with the IPP2 gamma curves and what the DSMC2 cameras and sensors provide, but i feel like color is the last frontier in making this camera truly compete with those who are die-hard Arri fans. While I can understand that Panavision has good reason to keep the LI color in-house, they have always been desired for their lens selection and accessories back in the days of film. That will never change. If they let the Red series of cameras become even better, that should drive more business to them as top-level DPs would be more likely to use Reds in more situations. Just my 2 cents, plus much more if I can spend it on the LI color science on my Gemini.

 

[Phil Holland]

Bare in mind that Light Iron Color is tuned to how PV has Tuned the DXLs, there are slight color ramifications regarding that.

James Miller took the older Dragon DXL cube and did this: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?166024-LIGHT-IRON-COLOUR-MATRIX-IPP2&highlight=light+iron+colo

But perhaps my own selfish/selfless plug would be for philmColor as it's got a whole lot of other options going on and by NAB 2019 you will have even more good things, especially since you brought up film.

http://www.phfx.com/tools/philmColor/index.shtml

 

[Jon Dishler]

Hi Phil - I love PhilmColor and use it pretty much consistently, a great tool and thank you for putting this together at such a reasonable price-point. If I could have one wish it would be to have more documentation on what each of the looks is referenced to and/or what you were trying to achieve? I know they are in categories, and that helps, but with 75 base stocks it is hard for me, at least, to remember the nuances of them all. And while the distinctive names sometimes help, I would pay extra to have your notes on each one.

 

[Phil Holland]

Hi Phil - I love PhilmColor and use it pretty much consistently, a great tool and thank you for putting this together at such a reasonable price-point. If I could have one wish it would be to have more documentation on what each of the looks is referenced to and/or what you were trying to achieve? I know they are in categories, and that helps, but with 75 base stocks it is hard for me, at least, to remember the nuances of them all. And while the distinctive names sometimes help, I would pay extra to have your notes on each one.

There's a little bit of information in the PDF Manual, but overall most of everything found as a baseStock is based on something related to a Vision 2 or Vision 3 stock and look. FYI, LI Color is influenced by modern film stocks as well, but basically two flavors. Which is cool.

Checkout the ghostStocks for more color science style cubes, specifically give phoenix a go.

For the next release I'll have expanded definitions and of course more Creative Cubes. I'm not trying to provide a limited 1-3 looks, I'm trying to push out a variety of things that people can tap into and even grade around basically. There's a few I see used often by people and studios. Crane for instance is one of those, but if you like that perhaps harpyEagle for purer blues rather than the shove over to cyan common to film. I'm working on the docs now, it's been a big project.

What will be interesting for the next release is a few much bolder looks and a few tone related looks based on a few curves extracted from various stocks. I've been having rather deep conversations regarding black levels for general production versus rather stylized and perhaps lifted/flat looks. Hard balancing act there.

 

[Todd S]

Checkout the ghostStocks for more color science style cubes, specifically give phoenix a go.

Phil, Is there a prescribed way to setup a base grade in Davinci Resolve centered around a ghostStock?

 

[Jon Dishler]

I wonder how much it varies with sensor? I find that Siskin basestock nicely takes some of the green tint out of Helium footage.

 

[Michael Epple]

I’m all for the tuning as well. I understand that PV has their own OLPF, but other than that, everything they do to their cameras, especially the DXL Ms, should be able to be done by us or Red service.

 

[Maximilian Schmige]

The Light Iron color science works together with the Panavision OLPF/color filter. I am sure another company, if they wanted to, could do their own color filters for DSMC2. Kippertie already did something similar with their diffusion filters based on the skin tone highlight color filter/olpf.

But do you think the Panavision DXL looks that significantly better/different then the regular DSCM2 cameras?

 

[Mike P.]

I'd be curious to see how close Light Iron could get to their DXL/Kodak look, but with RED's default OLPFs... Tough though; I'd presume they'd need to do STD, LLO, and STH versions of LUTs and for Helium, Dragon, and Gemini sensors. And even at $100 a LUT set, would it be worth it for them? Certainly people renting DXLs over regular RED's would be doing it regardless (they do it for the Light Iron/Panny support), so I don't think it'd have a substantial real-world impact on their rentals... But would it generate enough income to be worth the trouble?

OH And also worth considering is that any DXL footage you've seen was likely shot with a 'spared no expense' budget and on panny glass as well... So it's not just the LUT; it's a LUT that has been perfectly tuned for a proprietary/optimized OLPF, and then using some of the best, most "cinematic looking" glass out there to shoot well lit scenes... It's not just "this looks like crap">slap the LUT on>"wow, that revivals Deakins' best!"

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil, Is there a prescribed way to setup a base grade in Davinci Resolve centered around a ghostStock?

It's described on the website and inside the manual, but if you are looking for a very simple description:

As with any of the IPP2 workflow the order is RWGRGB/Log3G10 REDCODE RAW>Various Grading Operations (and here's where the Creative Cubes go)>RED Output Transform

I wonder how much it varies with sensor? I find that Siskin basestock nicely takes some of the green tint out of Helium footage.

Sensor variation will be seen most at the extremes, meaning extreme low light in particular. But yes, Siskin has that property to it. Something to keep in mind, motion picture film doesn't capture>reproduce very much color actually. It's more about what is captured and how it's transformed to the unique film stock's properties.

I'd be curious to see how close Light Iron could get to their DXL/Kodak look, but with RED's default OLPFs... Tough though; I'd presume they'd need to do STD, LLO, and STH versions of LUTs and for Helium, Dragon, and Gemini sensors. And even at $100 a LUT set, would it be worth it for them? Certainly people renting DXLs over regular RED's would be doing it regardless (they do it for the Light Iron/Panny support), so I don't think it'd have a substantial real-world impact on their rentals... But would it generate enough income to be worth the trouble?

OH And also worth considering is that any DXL footage you've seen was likely shot with a 'spared no expense' budget and on panny glass as well... So it's not just the LUT; it's a LUT that has been perfectly tuned for a proprietary/optimized OLPF, and then using some of the best, most "cinematic looking" glass out there to shoot well lit scenes... It's not just "this looks like crap">slap the LUT on>"wow, that revivals Deakins' best!"

There are many questions and answers to be had. My approach thus far has been to create Creative Cubes that work on all of the RED cameras to date while also working on an extremely broad variety of exposure techniques and levels (that's actually been the hard part). A direct emulation of the LI LUT is one thing, however there are two parts to it in terms of color and tone. There's a reason why people are using my Creative Cubes and you're not far off from your desires versus execution here, just with a whole bunch more variety.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

I’m all for the tuning as well. I understand that PV has their own OLPF, but other than that, everything they do to their cameras, especially the DXL Ms, should be able to be done by us or Red service.

They may have their own OLPF/colour filter but most importantly PV has changed the CFA* on the sensor. This is an important difference to how the sensor "represents colour." The Light Iron colour science is tuned for this setup. I suspect the PV CFA is not radically different just a little better. I believe a LUT could get close to emulating Panavision Light Iron look but its never going to be an exact match.

Maximillian from what I understand the CFA is bonded to the sensor so I don't think it is an easy thing to swap out.

*Colour Filter Array is a very different animal to the interchangeable colour filter that sits in front of the sensor

 

[Phil Holland]

PV has changed the CFA* on the sensor.

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. I'll be at PV Tuesday and I'll confirm either way.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. I'll be at PV Tuesday and I'll confirm either way.

Phil,

Michael Cioni told me this during a conversation. He said that Red had to work on a budget when it came to the CFA while Panavision had no such limitation. I have no actual evidence apart from this conversation.

 

[Nikhil Kamkolkar]

Phil,

I too got philmColor and look forward to the NAB 2019 update. It's quite a beast and I second the ask for some documentation and perhaps even some examples of how best to use this amazing package.

On a related note, on a recent shoot, my AC was speaking of how the Panavision DXL was his dream camera and he was dying to work with it. I mentioned that my EPIC-W, which he was working with, was essentially similar to the Weapon (?) brains of the DXL. He was totally taken aback to learn that the RED camera was the foundation for the DXL. Panavision has done a great job rebranding the camera - but truly, it'd be great if RED was able to somehow offer some color based equivalency. The Panavision DXL will always still be head and shoulders above given the other factors mentioned in this thread including pana glass.

Thanks,
Nikhil

edit: I remember reading a while back that RED was restricted contractually from having anything similar to the DXL... but hopefully, that's all in the past now, given how fast the Industry is moving.

 

[Phil Holland]

Phil,

Michael Cioni told me this during a conversation. He said that Red had to work on a budget when it came to the CFA while Panavision had no such limitation. I have no actual evidence apart from this conversation.

I'm 100% certain he's referring to what we consider the OLPF these days. Which on DSMC2 is a Color Filter with IR absorption, blocking, or reflecting coatings and/or layers as well as UV in there. The actual anti-aliasing/low pass filter has moved to the cover glass over the sensor itself these days. While budget is one factor, Panavision developed the new filter and Light Iron color for the DXL.

I wrote about it here in 2016:

Light Iron Color, Color Science, and OLPFs

One very notable thing about the DXL is Light Iron's involvement in developing unique to Panavision "Light Iron Color". The DXL will actually use proprietary media that will embed Light Iron Color at the sensor level that can be utilized in 3rd party applications. In tandem with this Panavision is currently developing their own OLPF Technology. I spoke to Michael Cioni a bit about what the goals are here. Overall and initially Light Iron Color will be developed towards the common trends in modern motion pictures. My personal take on this? The combination between Light Iron Color and this new OLPF will be designed to produce a very film-like/modern-ish look out of the camera. Vibrant, rich, and deep color that will be unique to Panavision and the DXL.

It has since been named and then renamed to the "PX-Pro color spectrum filter" and is even referenced on the DXL site.

The DXL uses the same CFA that is on the sensor as Monstro and previously Dragon. How they tap into the sensor, the OLPF, and if productions opt to use Light Iron Color or not is what makes the DXL unique to Panavision outside of the camera's unique I/O, cooling, and processing hardware.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Phil,

Yes there may have been some misunderstanding in our discussion between the Colour Filter Array bonded to the sensor and the colour filter in the interchangeable slot in front of the sensor. Changing the CFA would be no simple task. Please pass on Panavision's response here on Reduser. Thanks

 

[Michael Epple]

While I am sure your LUTs are really well done Phil, I was looking for a more fundamental adjustment, similar to what IPP2 brought. I believe the Light Iron color does that and I would pay a pretty price to have it.

 

[Phil Holland]

what IPP2 brought. I believe the Light Iron color does that and I would pay a pretty price to have it.

Light Iron color works in tandem with IPP2, meaning it's merely a Creative Cube. It's a look. There's two of them, I think 4 versions out there. It's a well designed matrix, but it's one direction if you catch what I mean by that.

 

[Aaron Green]

Light Iron color works in tandem with IPP2, meaning it's merely a Creative Cube. It's a look. There's two of them, I think 4 versions out there. It's a well designed matrix, but it's one direction if you catch what I mean by that.

It recreates the look of 2013 mega hit video “Story Of My Life”?

 

[Aaron Lochert]

While I am sure your LUTs are really well done Phil, I was looking for a more fundamental adjustment, similar to what IPP2 brought. I believe the Light Iron color does that and I would pay a pretty price to have it.

That's what the Ghost stocks do. Only you have a lot of different choices. I like Kelpie, Phoenix, and BiltmoreTypeB combined with Red's High Con/Soft Rolloff for an off-the-camera Rec709 look that is clean and has a nice harmony of hues.

Or there are some Base stocks that are a bit more color-sciency without being too much of a "look", like Crane, etc. And then there's some Base stocks that have a bit more flavor out of the gate like a film stock, I really enjoy Turaco for a lot of things that need some character.