Letus Gimbal

[Markus Kleinman]

I'm also interested in the Letus Helix. I read this thread now and saw that it uses "Alex Mos" controller. This can explain the problems you have. It is not MoVI or Ronin. I used "Alex Mos" in my quadcopter and it's a nice but very basic controller. It takes lots of time to get working and the horizon is not level. I can not understand why Letus chose this for a professional gimbal. Judging by the videos, Ronin is much better. Shame, because I really like the shape of the Helix.

-- Markus

 

[Note Suwanchote]

I'm also interested in the Letus Helix. I read this thread now and saw that it uses "Alex Mos" controller. This can explain the problems you have. It is not MoVI or Ronin. I used "Alex Mos" in my quadcopter and it's a nice but very basic controller. It takes lots of time to get working and the horizon is not level. I can not understand why Letus chose this for a professional gimbal. Judging by the videos, Ronin is much better. Shame, because I really like the shape of the Helix.

-- Markus

I
think the final version is custom not Alexmos

 

[Markus Kleinman]

I
think the final version is custom not Alexmos

This is very good news if correct! It seemed very weird to me that a $4k gimbal would use $100 brain that is the most important part. I know many companies now make their special controller, like MoVI, DJI, Gremesy, maybe BeSteady? But it is all in the footage and the Helix footage isn't what I expect at the level of the market today. So I thought maybe to wait for another company to make similar shape to Helix but with good performance.

Where did you get the information about Helix controller? I do not see anything about it on the Letus site, and this thread said Alex mos. The footage looks very like Alex mos. I like more information before spending the money.

-- Markus

 

[Matthew B]

I put my money on both the Ronin and Helix. I may keep both, sell one or sell both. It all depends on how well they perform. That said, all of the Helix footage I've been seeing is depressing. What's going on? Is this thing a SOB to calibrate ? Or just inherently not smooth? Confidence is low. I understand we're looking at growing pain footage but supposedly Helix's are shipping already. Which means we're beyond beta. So please someone post something that looks pro.

I've had mine for almost 2 weeks - I would say it is still BETA level in terms of those looking for something "plug and play" out of the box ready to shoot. Similar to working with a red on early firmware.

It's not hard to balance but the motors were not configured out of the box well on mine, creating a lot of vibration.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I'm also interested in the Letus Helix. I read this thread now and saw that it uses "Alex Mos" controller. This can explain the problems you have. It is not MoVI or Ronin. I used "Alex Mos" in my quadcopter and it's a nice but very basic controller. It takes lots of time to get working and the horizon is not level. I can not understand why Letus chose this for a professional gimbal. Judging by the videos, Ronin is much better. Shame, because I really like the shape of the Helix.

-- Markus

It is my understanding that Ronin and Movi also use Alexmos controllers. Happy to know if I am wrong.

 

[Steve Das]

It is my understanding that Ronin and Movi also use Alexmos controllers. Happy to know if I am wrong.

My understanding is Movi and Ronin are totally custom software control.

And in the case of Movi everything is made in-house by them...even
the motors...hence the high quality and hence the high price.

 

[Peter Majtan]

It is my understanding that Ronin and Movi also use Alexmos controllers. Happy to know if I am wrong.

RONIN most definitely does not use ALEXMOS. They have their own proprietary HW and SW solution...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Terry VerHaar]

The motors in the Helix are not standard, they are custom. And the board has some customization as well. I'd hope people wouldn't throw out suggestions like "$100 brain" without knowing what they are talking about. Hopefully, Hien, Letus' president, will jump in here to provide specifics, but these are not cheap or low grade parts. The tough part is tweaking the software and, yes, that is happening.

And, yes, I think the Helix is in something of a "public beta" stage; much like RED was when they released the RED ONE. If that makes you nervous, then wait. Clearly none of these product is much past that stage anyway. Perhaps Movi. If you want something with a bit of a track record, spend the $15K.

Behind the curtain, we are getting some good footage and some less than ideal results as well - depending on who is shooting it and how hard they are pushing things. But we are not very far into the tweaking, either. Balance is important and there are so many ways one can configure the unit that we are almost all breaking ground with our set-ups. This is a new product area and the Helix is the only one with a unique design. IMO, a better design, but that is yet to be seen.

Reserve judgement. Or don't, But realize that anyone buying into one of these products is buying into a system and a company. No one has perfected it yet. If you can't decide who to bet on, wait. Things will only get more clear over time. If you want to take the leap, look past the initial results of a few out-of-the box trials and decide who is in it for the long term and will support the product best.

Being in early has given some of us some insight not available to others. The product development effort at Letus is in it's infancy and the stuff they are working on is very cool. I know there are many of us who are perfectly happy with where we placed our bets.

Cheers. :smiley:http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

It is my understanding that Ronin and Movi also use Alexmos controllers. Happy to know if I am wrong.

Let's keep you happy!

Peter and Steve have it right - both Ronin and Movi utilize custom controllers.

To add to Steve's post, Tabb Firchau (President / Owner of Freefly) is on the record as stating "Both Motors and Motor Drive are designed and produced 100% by Freefly. You won't find them anywhere else other then the MoVI."

As far as Ronin, their product is also custom - an extension of their "Zenmuse Technology" long used in their aerial gimbal line.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Hey team, when ordering the 4TH AXIS, there are 4 options for stud size:

16mm - Zolinger
21.4mm - Glidecam
18.8mm - Steadicam
12.57mm - Steadicam

What's the optimal size to pick..for mounting Helix on the REDUSER group buy Laing steadycam?

Thanks!

best

Hey everyone. I heard back from Frank at CAME.TV about the Laing stud size. He says the following:

Hi
"Sorry for reply lately, because I need to measure . Yes , it is 16mm .

Best regards!"

SO 16mm IT IS!!!

16mm is the correct 4th Axis size to choose...to pair the Helix with the Laing Pro Steadycam.

 

[hienle]

Yes, we use Basecam, not the one ages ago, it's the latest 32 bit that is 30x more accurate than the old one. With our custom request, we are quite happy about it. It's testedand tried out and it was admitted that it is superior than the Ronin. Don't press me for the name, you would be surprised. If they own their own board and couldn't do what we can, like the seamless suitcase mode, then they should get Alex to help.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

So - just to be clear and accurate, Helix uses "custom controllers" too. And custom motors. They just happen to be from Alexmos. FWIW, Alexi does seem to have a bit of experience with these electronics.

 

[Andreas Kielb]

So - just to be clear and accurate, Helix uses "custom controllers" too. And custom motors. They just happen to be from Alexmos. FWIW, Alexi does seem to have a bit of experience with these electronics.

Actually all brushless gimbal motors are custom as they are wired with a single lead copper to get higher electric resistance compared to rc engine brushless motors with multible or very thick wires. Also the Alexmos controller is custom as it was designed for the specific reason to stabilize a camera, it's not a standard rc hobby tool. Apparently there is a strong tendency of many vendors to use "custom designed" as main proof of quality and also of end users to demand exactly for that. Probably because it somehow feels wired if 200 USD controllers are the "brain" in much more sophisticated end systems.

But in the end it always comes down to how well a system is tuned. Whenever there is a word about the lack of perfomance with Alexmos controllers it comes from somebody who doesn't know how to tune it. On the other hand it's very difficult to tune a common alexmos controller as it has so many options in the software in order to be able to work in gimbals of very wide variance. That was also discussed on the freefly forum: http://forum.freeflysystems.com/index.php?threads/movi-competitors.2104/page-5#post-38113

There is also the saying that the original Movi prototype used a "custom" controller with software written by alexmos. Of course it already supported the encoders in the motors. But there is no written statement about the involvement of Aleksey Moskalenko, again probably because of the "custom" marketing thing. Besteady confirmed after my direct request that they do work with Aleksey recently. I did know it from a very early posting of them but in the meantime they do all they can to say how custom designed every part of the BS4 is. Gremsy and DJI do build their own controllers but that does not necessarily mean that they are better or worse.

However, I think it's the responsibility of each manufactorer to provide settings as perfect as possible for their "ready to use" gimbal products. This should be the main difference to companies that produce parts for DIY builders. That's why I changed my selling concept to direct contacts in the meantime as I think it's the only way to ensure that each gimbal out there is optimized for the camera beeing used: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...e-next-month&p=1390874&viewfull=1#post1390874
Unfortunately that means that the customer needs to decide for a consistent setup (...lens changes are of course possible if the lenses are not too different in weight and size).

One problem especially in the 5kg gimbal class is that cameras are very different in weight and size (Red Epic or Scarlet / Sony F3, F5 and FS700 / Canon C300 / Blackmagic Cinema Camera) and also different lenses and remote focus systems do result in a wide variance of possible settings with alexmos boards. It's a little better in the 2 kg class were DSLR-cameras are the standard. DJI made a big step foreward with the auto-tune function and I can only hope that Alexmos might provide auto-tune soon.

Yesterday I did a first test with my new Portahead 10 system and the Alexa and it worked great from the start. The large space makes it also easy to deal with accessories like matte box and focus motors. Here I have the hope again that it will later be possible to send the system overseas on demand. The choice of different remote focus system or matte boxes has not such a big influence in relation to the weight of the Alexa and so it might be possible to always deal with the same pid-setup.

Best regards,
Andreas Kielb


www.portahead.de

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

hey Andreas.

which Alexa? sorry to ask but was it the M? XTPLUS? Pictures?

thanks

 

[Andreas Kielb]

hey Andreas.

which Alexa? sorry to ask but was it the M? XTPLUS? Pictures?

thanks

Hello Constantine, I just added a picture - it was the XT Plus. The Porta Head 10 is two axis head to be mounted on the steadicam and has not much in common with handheld gimbals. Will do some shots on a student project today and edit a video as soon as possible. This will not be before the 29th of July, though.

cheers,
Andreas

www.portahead.de

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

thans great Andreas, thanks. Not sure if this is the way for steadicam , adding so much size but good to see.

can you please move this post on your thread as this is the Letus thread? so we dont take over this.

kind regards

 

[Joel Arvidsson]

I like the Defy approach where you can tell them what camera and lens you will be using (i guess the first shoot) and then they tune it for you before they deliver it. I would love to se this from more manufacturer.

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

I have some comments to make on your set up, but i would rather discuss them on your thread and not hera.

thanks Andreas

 

[Andreas Kielb]

thans great Andreas, thanks. Not sure if this is the way for steadicam , adding so much size but good to see.

can you please move this post on your thread as this is the Letus thread? so we dont take over this.

kind regards

Yes I know and we should stop talking about the Alexa system. I was mainly using it to clarify what I mean about the variance in camera dimensions in the 5 kg class and which problems that brings regarding pid settings. What we saw on not completely compelling first videos with the Letus recently was only based on faulty PID-settings and not because the components are custom or repetition parts, though the discussion did go in that direction again with the last posts.

But I really don't see a solution for the pid dilemma other than either auto-tune or direct pickup/delivery of the units were the manufactorer has the chance to adjust the pid-settings to the actual camera setup used. This is cruical if you want to run with the system. If the pids are OK for running they automatically great for anything else. With the new 32 bit controller the possible range in pid settings is even smaller and what worked with DSLR cameras and lens combinations and predefined setups does not work good enough for 5 kg class systems with additional remote focus. I did tune my BMCC with lens and Redrock Micro with the 32 bit controller and 2 days later I got completely different pids for a customer, also with BMCC, almost similar lens but a Preston remote with large receiver...

 

[hienle]

Andreas was right on pretty much all points he made on the gimbals. If it's not stable, you can tune to make it stable. What Letus does is giving the users a platform and we support to no end to make sure customers get it right with their unique setups. We don't filter what people put up on the internet and we don't plan to do it either. We let the users shoot what they like and post what they like. If you see half a shots were soft when testing a lens and the other half were good, you would say the lens was good and it was your mistake that the shots were soft. Same goes with any stabilizer.

As far as custom controller, here is what it is: it's the custom firmware that Alex has to make for us for the Helix to work and no other system would be able to use it as Helix has a very unique hardware configuration. As the result, we has very nice movements that cannot be replicated by any other gimbal with MOVI-lite hardware setup. We also swap the gimbal lock position to 10 degree in a configuration that no one would use to maximize the operation range and it is 360x360x350, which is the widest range of any gimbal exist today.

As for motor, we don't use off the shell motor, we custom made the motor ourselves, not just asking a motor factory to stamp our name on it. It's both structural and electrical specifically made for our need. The inside would be quite different from any other motor. That's why we called it custom motor, we don't take the word custom lightly.

As for the hardware setup, we came out with this initial setup as the request of the steadicam ops to auto horizon for them and we showed it at 2012 NAB, a full year before MOVI did their first showing. Our hardware configuration was going from the tripod up, not helicopter down. We have found a very unique way to just have 2 handles and we can go high to low mode (not needing the extra handle in the middle). More than that, we have found that mounting the monitor on top of the camera that the monitor get stabilized is much much much much easier than to have the monitor mounted on the handle bar like other gimbals. The other could not do this due to the vertical bar connecting the Yaw axis (we call it pan) with the Roll axis and also the cross bar the the handle connects to would block the view to the monitor. I have tested both and when you have the monitor somewhere that was not get stabilized, it's very very confusing. The recorded image was stabilized but the live picture on the monitor seems not to be because the monitor got moved with your shaky hands (that's why you need the stabilizer). The moment I put it on the top of the camera, I never want to move it anywhere else. The monitor is also seen in low mode (suitcase mode). You also can put the Helix down, without needing a stand.

One major different in image is this, with optical center that the Helix are built around, any movement around the Roll axis would result in no movement of the image while as other gimbal, with a movement around the Roll axis, it would translate into a left/right and up/down movement of the image. This is huge.

One of the major feature of the Helix is it uses the slipring to prevent wires being twisted.

Also, the Helix is modular, you can take the first axis out and put on a steadicam (we had an experience steadicam coming to our office and tried it out, he got goose bumps all over his body when he used it)

We also patented the use of the stabilizer directly to mounted on a vest and an arm without using a sled. Other gimbal manufaturer, don't even try to do this, as it directly violate our internationally protected patent.

There are many more unique features of the Helix that no other gimbal can offer simply due to the hardware configuration. The Helix proud to say it's the only stabilizer that doesn't copy the configuration of the Movi. We actually showed a prototype at NAB 2012.

It's exciting time, and there are a lot of choice out there for the customers, which is great. We are just the most unique

Blessings all,
Hien Le

Actually all brushless gimbal motors are custom as they are wired with a single lead copper to get higher electric resistance compared to rc engine brushless motors with multible or very thick wires. Also the Alexmos controller is custom as it was designed for the specific reason to stabilize a camera, it's not a standard rc hobby tool. Apparently there is a strong tendency of many vendors to use "custom designed" as main proof of quality and also of end users to demand exactly for that. Probably because it somehow feels wired if 200 USD controllers are the "brain" in much more sophisticated end systems.

But in the end it always comes down to how well a system is tuned. Whenever there is a word about the lack of perfomance with Alexmos controllers it comes from somebody who doesn't know how to tune it. On the other hand it's very difficult to tune a common alexmos controller as it has so many options in the software in order to be able to work in gimbals of very wide variance. That was also discussed on the freefly forum: http://forum.freeflysystems.com/index.php?threads/movi-competitors.2104/page-5#post-38113

There is also the saying that the original Movi prototype used a "custom" controller with software written by alexmos. Of course it already supported the encoders in the motors. But there is no written statement about the involvement of Aleksey Moskalenko, again probably because of the "custom" marketing thing. Besteady confirmed after my direct request that they do work with Aleksey recently. I did know it from a very early posting of them. Gremsy and DJI do have their own custom controllers but that does not necessarily mean that they are better or worse.

However, I think it's the responsibility of each manufactorer to provide settings as perfect as possible for their "ready to use" gimbal products. This should be the main difference to companies that produce parts for DIY builders. That's why I changed my selling concept to direct contacts in the meantime as I think it's the only way to ensure that each gimbal out there is optimized for the camera beeing used: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...e-next-month&p=1390874&viewfull=1#post1390874
Unfortunately that means that the customer needs to decide for a consistent setup (...lens changes are of course possible if the lenses are not too different in weight and size).

One problem especially in the 5kg gimbal class is that cameras are very different in weight and size (Red Epic or Scarlet / Sony F3, F5 and FS700 / Canon C300 / Blackmagic Cinema Camera) and also different lenses and remote focus systems do result in a wide variance of possible settings. Yesterday I did a first test with my new Portahead 10 system and the Alexa and it worked great from the start. The large space make it also easy to deal with accessories like matte box and focus motors. Here I have the hope again that it will later be possible to send the system overseas on demand. The choice of different remote focus system or matte boxes has not such a big influence in relation to the weight of the Alexa and so it might be possible to always deal with the same pid-setup.

Best regards,
Andreas Kielb


www.portahead.de