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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Leica-M Survival Guide (Dragon and Weapon)

Nice image quality David.

I thought I could see some darkening around the edges in some shots, would you say the 50mm Summilux-M lens actually vignettes slightly at 5K?

You also mentioned in another thread that the grading was a bit extreme in some shots, how would you describe that look you applied, as compared to how the lens and Scarlet-W appeared without it?
 
Thanks Les, Im very happy with this lens. Most of the vignetting was because I was shooting wide-open at 1.4 because of the ND filter. The 50mm summilux has inherent vignetting when used wide open even on a coded Leica M body until F2.8. I think at 5K on the Scarlet W this lens performs better then on most digital Leica m bodies(CCD Leica M monochrom being the exception for me) because of the small crop factor and the Quality of the dragon sensor. Overall the colors right out of the box with this lens and the scarlet W are great, nice contrast vibrant colors that pop, just a very nice lens all around. On my grade especially the scene at the lake shore with the boat and the staircase leading up to the shrine I increased saturation and was trying to mimic a Fuji film like look with Candy but still organic looking colors. For the shots inside of the train I was going for a low con slightly desaturated with more subdued color look to see how much usable dynamic range there was. I got to say Im really loving the combination of this lens and this camera so much so that I'm looking into adding the 24mm Summilux to the arsenal. I'm hoping to find some time this week to test how the 24mm Summilux and the Scarlet W play together.
 
Thanks for the info David, I like the results you were getting there.

From the pictures of the 24mm Summilux-M I've seen, it looks like the rear element will protrude too far to focus at infinity, but I've also read it fits and looks alright, so I'd be interested to find out what you make of it if you get to test one out.
 
Billy Jim said:
Leica rumored to announce a new line of M cinema lenses:
http://leicarumors.com/2016/07/18/leica-rumored-to-announce-a-new-line-of-m-cinema-lenses.aspx/
Click to expand...

Seems a bit bizarre, but I guess it makes sense as Leica gradually increases the viability of the video recording modes on their M-mount range-finder stills cameras. And it is Leica after all, so making sense isn't necessarily a high priority anyway.

I imagine such things, Summilux-M's with cine housings, would end up costing 5K+ each. Hard to see those taking off if the lenses aren't tweaked to play more nicely with non-Leica cameras/sensors. But again, not sure that's even a factor when it comes to Leica.

Wouldn't it make more sense (and sales) to just tweak and re-house their Leica-R range?

Or their 'S' series lenses, that seem to have only been built to sell their 'S' series camera bodies (instead of going toe to toe with the Zeiss Otus lenses in the broader market-place)...
 
Update -- Measured the distance from 21mm f/1.4 Summilux's flange to the maximum extension of its exit pupil (actually, this part does not move when focusing)
Distance is ~12- 13mm. So Peter from Leica is right on the money.

*** H-O-W-E-V-E-R: There are parts of the mechanism around the exit pupil that interfere with some of the Weapon's baffles -- so the 21mm Summilux
is a No-Go, unless someone on the forum has a fix or work around. Wonder if RED would be willing to offer a "baffle reduction service" to trim some of the baffles ?
Or maybe the Helium will have a different baffle configuration ??

Sigh -- the 21mm 'Lux is a very nice lens.

On the plus side, the Zeiss 35mm f/1.4 ZM fits both depth (13mm according to Zeiss) and fits inside the baffles, and delivers a very nice image.

FWIW,
Serge

Serge Polevitzky said:
Josh -- as we said in the olde days, "a - dot - mazing" ! Interested in which OLPF showed the purple on the left. And when you said, "Performed equal to or better than your 40mm" ... in what sense (fringing, sharpness, or ??) Also, which version of firmware in your Dragon ?

Segue:
Update from Leica --

I [Peter Brieger] measured some Wide angle M lenses like Summicron-M 1.2/28 Asph. (sic -- I think Peter meant f/2 28mm Summicron Asph)
and the Summilux 1.4/21 and Summilux 1.4/24
the measure was always between 10-12 mm.
...
...
Mit freundlichen Gruessen / kind regards

Peter Brieger
Leica Camera AG
Customer Care
Produkt Support
Am Leitz-Park 5 / D-35578 Wetzlar
www.leica-camera.com / peter.brieger@leica-camera.com
Telephone 06441-2080111
Click to expand...
 
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Hey Serge, thanks for the info about the 21mm Summilux, I'll add those details to the list.

There are some other lenses as well that would fit the RED Dragon/Weapon camera's if the metal around the rear lens element was cut back to the depth of the actual glass element, while some would also require cutting the actual glass of the rear lens element as well as the surrounding metal.

If you don't want to cut back the metal of the lens itself like Josh did with the 'Voigtlander 15mm III' , you could have a closer look at the removable OLPF holder. You can unscrew it, take it out and examine just how much of it would need to be cut away for the 21mm Summilux to physically fit. There's about 2mm on the top and on the bottom of the thin flare-guard/baffle that could be cut away with a small sharp blade before you get to the screws holding the OLPF unit together, with about 3mm of clearance behind it, between the flare-guard/baffle and the front glass of the actual OLPF. IIRC someone else did that modification to the OLPF holder to make their 35mm Summilux-M fit, but found the resultant discoloured vignetting and blurring around the edges too much for the lens to be useful anyway.

Here are some pics of the removable OLPF holder with its thin sheet of flare-guard/baffling that can block some of the lenses -





Also, from what I can tell by the pictures of them, the '21mm Super-Elmar-M f/3.4 ASPH' might fit, and the '16-18-21mm Tri-Elmar-M f/4 ASPH' will probably fit, if you wanted the 21mm focal length and were willing to settle for a slower aperture.
 
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Les -- Wow ! Thanks !! OK, I've put together some quick videos on my 'journey' with the 21mm 'Lux. Your private message & your postings have been extremely helpful.

First video is my general take on the Leica-M distance from the flange to the sensor situation. And a close look at the exit end of the Leica-M 21mm f/1.4

https://vimeo.com/176079922
Pass is "Toothpick" -- the password actually has a connection with the video, which may make more sense after watching the footage. Footage was taken with a GoPro Hero4 Black, modified by BackBone in Canada to take C-mount lenses. Had a 5mm on the modified GoPro.

Measurement referenced in the video -- distance from the 'marked' toothpick [flange to butt end of lens] was about 12 - 13mm. The 21mm apparently isn't all that deep,
but it is "wide in the back." The 12 - 13mm distance checks with the data Peter from Leica, Germany, provided.

Next footage is a look inside the 'throat' of the Mg Weapon with the Low Light OLPF.

https://vimeo.com/176544656
Pass again is "Toothpick" and again, taken with the modified GoPro.

On actually thinking & reviewing Les' input -- rather than just getting the razor blade out & starting to hack away, I've decided for the moment to seek help from someone
who has the skills to "carve" the OLPF.

So anyone out there who could help, please let me know !

Thanks !
Serge
PS -- I'm beginning to think there might be some interference with both the Zeiss 35mm ZF & the 21mm Leica and the Leica Mount. Both can be 'rocked' a bit when inserted, somewhat
indicating that there isn't a perfectly flat mating of lens to mount.

The 21mm may also have a 'depth' and 'width' problem. IIRC, my Leica Mount has a Rev A part and a Rev B part. Wonder if both parts were Rev B that the lenses & Mount might behave differently.

Any observations, comments, etc. welcomed !
 
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Hi Serge, thanks for the video's.

I didn't realize you were using a Weapon camera, and totally forgot the DSMC[SUP]2 [/SUP]camera's had a slightly different removable OLPF holder than the DSMC[SUP]1[/SUP] type that I posted pictures of above.

The mark on the OLPF holder in your second video is, as far as I can tell, having seen it before, the result of a/the lens running into it.

I'd suggest mounting the 21mm 'Lux with the focus set at its minimum distance, adjusting the focus as close to infinity as you can get, removing the lens, then seeing how far the rear lens element extends as you try to turn the focus to infinity again. If you can actually reach infinity with the lens attached to the camera then having the metal of the rear lens element housing coming in contact with the OLPF holder may be something you'd just be willing to live with. If the lens won't reach infinity when attached to the camera, the distance the lens extends when focused to infinity outside the camera is obviously the same depth to which you'd have to cut into the OLPF holder to make it fit/reach infinity focus.

Going by the marks seen in the video you posted, the diameter of the rear lens element is quite large. If it were a DSMC[SUP]1 [/SUP]OLPF holder you were dealing with, I think you'd have to cut past where the screws holding the removable OLPF together are, which could be problematic. I have no idea how those DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] OLPF holders are put together though, so I don't know if cutting into them that far, without damaging the OLPF holder, is possible or not.

Just had a look on the RED website and the DSMC[SUP]2 [/SUP]OLPF's aren't exactly cheap to replace either ($295USD each, $100 more than the DSMC[SUP]1 [/SUP]versions), so experimenting on them could be costly. On the other hand, if you really like the lens and are willing to try anything to make it fit...

Not saying you should, not saying you shouldn't. :smile:
 
Les -- The lens will focus from 0.7m to about 1.2m -- which is actually a fair amount of "throw." The floating elements start to extend as the lens goes from near to far, and I think the floating element "barrel" is what is binding & stopping the lens. Near as I
can tell, the lens does not protrude any more than the 35mm Zeiss ZM, which can reach infinity & whose focus ring is smooth all across the range. But the 21mm -- with its floating element barrel -- is "fatter. See image ... note the cut outs on top & bottom,
but the left and right sides are "straight." [The picture may be too small to be of any use.]

Sent a request to RED. They do have 8K Full Frame OLPFs (these could be very scarce). I'll assume the Full Frame OLPFs have to have a wider (and taller) aperture than 6K. Hopefully the Full Frame OLPF is enough wider so the 21mm's floating barrel will clear
(and the optical characteristics are virtually the same as the 6K's OLPF). If not, it's the X-Acto knife on the sides of the 6K OLPF ... or a local laser cutter.

Update: Did an "easy, simple" experiment this morning ... took the OLPF out & mounted the 21mm. No problem ! Focuses to infinity & focus is smooth. While I had the
Low Light OLPF out, took a shot with the 21mm. It's got a color cast (of course) & probably IR polluted to the max, but the image seems reasonably evenly illuminated
across the field of view. Link to a vimeo by this evening ( I hope).

Update: here's the no-OLPF-at-all clip (also ZERO changes in REDCINE-X 40.0 -- straight export & then to Apple Compressor 4.2.2, and then to vimeo)

https://vimeo.com/176802616
pass is Toothpick


Thanks !
Serge


Les Hillis said:
Hi Serge, thanks for the video's.

I didn't realize you were using a Weapon camera, and totally forgot the DSMC[SUP]2 [/SUP]camera's had a slightly different removable OLPF holder than the DSMC[SUP]1[/SUP] type that I posted pictures of above.

The mark on the OLPF holder in your second video is, as far as I can tell, having seen it before, the result of a/the lens running into it.

I'd suggest mounting the 21mm 'Lux with the focus set at its minimum distance, adjusting the focus as close to infinity as you can get, removing the lens, then seeing how far the rear lens element extends as you try to turn the focus to infinity again. If you can actually reach infinity with the lens attached to the camera then having the metal of the rear lens element housing coming in contact with the OLPF holder may be something you'd just be willing to live with. If the lens won't reach infinity when attached to the camera, the distance the lens extends when focused to infinity outside the camera is obviously the same depth to which you'd have to cut into the OLPF holder to make it fit/reach infinity focus.

Going by the marks seen in the video you posted, the diameter of the rear lens element is quite large. If it were a DSMC[SUP]1 [/SUP]OLPF holder you were dealing with, I think you'd have to cut past where the screws holding the removable OLPF together are, which could be problematic. I have no idea how those DSMC[SUP]2[/SUP] OLPF holders are put together though, so I don't know if cutting into them that far, without damaging the OLPF holder, is possible or not.

Just had a look on the RED website and the DSMC[SUP]2 [/SUP]OLPF's aren't exactly cheap to replace either ($295USD each, $100 more than the DSMC[SUP]1 [/SUP]versions), so experimenting on them could be costly. On the other hand, if you really like the lens and are willing to try anything to make it fit...

Not saying you should, not saying you shouldn't. :smile:
Click to expand...
 

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Hey Serge, interesting looking no OLPF shot. Not a lot of vignetting either by the look of it, was it shot at 6K resolution?

As I understand it, the straight vertical edges on either side of the OLPF holder are the same distance apart as the semi-circular cut-outs on the top and bottom of it, so that's not where the rear lens element on the 21mm 'Lux is being obstructed. Do your measurements of the diameter of the rear lens element and the outer opening of the OLPF holder confirm that? And if not, what's the cause of that semi-circular mark/abrasion that can be seen further in on the lower edge of the OLPF holder?

Also, an easy and accurate way to measure how far the rear lens element and outer housing is actually extending when focused to infinity, is by placing the face of the rear lens element (protected by its outer metal housing) against a flat surface like a table-top or table-edge and aligning a ruler against the lens, perpendicular to the flat surface, so that you can clearly see and measure the distance between the back edge of the lens barrel/mount and the table surface. Measuring that distance with the lens set to it's minimum and maximum focus distances will show you how far the rear lens element and/or housing actually extends. Going from about .7m to 1.2m doesn't seem like much, even if it requires a fair bit of a throw on the focus ring.
 
Les - Yes, was shot at 6114 by 3072. Did a few passes with Resolve to try to color balance & gave that up :-) [Requires more talent than I have ...]

Only have one OLPF, so I can't use the Weapon to take videos of its sole OLPF

Here is a "crufty" clip showing the OLPF, it may show what I think is happening. Theory is that the "close focus part" [up to about 1.2m] fits between the left & right extremities of the OLPF,
but when the "distance or floating element part" starts to extend for distances beyond 1.2m, then the floating element part comes into contact with the left & right parts of the OLPF.

https://vimeo.com/177079718
pass is "Toothpick"

I have an e-mail into RED to see if the 8K Vista Vision OLPFs have a wider (and maybe taller) aperture & if so, what are those dimensions. And would they sell me one.

I think I accomplished what you suggested by doing the "Toothpick" measuring method. I get about 38mm wide when the floating element is extended. Have an e-mail in to Peter @ Leica Germany,
asking what the width dimension are for the 21mm when at infinity ... but he's out for another week.

Best !
Serge



Les Hillis said:
Hey Serge, interesting looking no OLPF shot. Not a lot of vignetting either by the look of it, was it shot at 6K resolution?

As I understand it, the straight vertical edges on either side of the OLPF holder are the same distance apart as the semi-circular cut-outs on the top and bottom of it, so that's not where the rear lens element on the 21mm 'Lux is being obstructed. Do your measurements of the diameter of the rear lens element and the outer opening of the OLPF holder confirm that? And if not, what's the cause of that semi-circular mark/abrasion that can be seen further in on the lower edge of the OLPF holder?

Also, an easy and accurate way to measure how far the rear lens element and outer housing is actually extending when focused to infinity, is by placing the face of the rear lens element (protected by its outer metal housing) against a flat surface like a table-top or table-edge and aligning a ruler against the lens, perpendicular to the flat surface, so that you can clearly see and measure the distance between the back edge of the lens barrel/mount and the table surface. Measuring that distance with the lens set to it's minimum and maximum focus distances will show you how far the rear lens element and/or housing actually extends. Going from about .7m to 1.2m doesn't seem like much, even if it requires a fair bit of a throw on the focus ring.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Les and Serge,

I am in on the Helium buy and have been playing around a lot with M mount on my Dragons. I am wondering if it would be possible to mount the OLPF onto the protruding part of the lens of the lens 21mm 1.4 and save some space? And have you tried the New 28mm or 35mm Summicrons?
 
Scott -- Welcome to the fray ! Lucky person -- what with a Helium coming your way ! Not sure I understand what you are asking -- remove the OLPF completely & somehow attach it to the butt end of the lens ?

I'd think that the tricky part would be [once it is attached to the lens !] to align the attached OLPF perfectly so as to be parallel with the sensor. If RED has 8K VV OLPFs and they are 38mm or so "wide" -- this
would seem to be the way to go. Or maybe someone will offer a "trim the current OLPFs to 38mm" service. Court of last resort is the X-Acto route, but with the OLPF proper only a few mm away from what
would be being "carved," I am reluctant to try this. On the plus side, it's only 2mm on either side that needs to be removed (if my measurements are anywhere close).

What about just using an IR filter on the front of the lens & trying to correct the color shifts in post ? IIRC, Les Dilbert (I think) had a method with the MX sensor that allowed him to shoot sans an OLPF, and
he got quite a bit sharper images (IIRC).

If you test the 28mm & 35mm Summicrons, please post results. I have only tried the 0.95 Noct, the 35mm f/1.4 Zeiss ZM, and the f/1.4 21mm Summilux.

Best & please post what you find !
Serge

scott devitte said:
Hi Les and Serge,

I am in on the Helium buy and have been playing around a lot with M mount on my Dragons. I am wondering if it would be possible to mount the OLPF onto the protruding part of the lens of the lens 21mm 1.4 and save some space? And have you tried the New 28mm or 35mm Summicrons?
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the extra info Serge.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying it's not the rear-most lens element that's being obstructed by the OLPF holder, but that what's being blocked is a 38mm wide part of the lens mechanism that extends from the rear of the lens mount, as indicated here -



And that it's the outer parts of the OLPF holder I've measured here (on the DSMC[SUP]1[/SUP] version) that are causing the obstruction -



I can see that 38mm diameter part moving as the focus is adjusted on all the Leica-M lenses I've tested, but have never seen it extend beyond the chrome part of the mount, so didn't even realize it could be a problem, sorry about that.
 
scott devitte said:
Hi Les and Serge,

I am in on the Helium buy and have been playing around a lot with M mount on my Dragons. I am wondering if it would be possible to mount the OLPF onto the protruding part of the lens of the lens 21mm 1.4 and save some space? And have you tried the New 28mm or 35mm Summicrons?
Click to expand...

Hi Scott, I could be wrong, but as I understand it, the OLPF glass has to be set at a specific distance from the sensor to match what the sensor is expecting to see through it, so cutting the glass down and attaching it to the back of the lens could introduce some unwanted abberations.

I haven't tried the new 28mm or 35mm lenses. A quick read about them gives the impression they are an improvement over the older versions, as the new 35mm Summicron has more aperture blades for more rounded bokeh, and the 28mm Summicron and Elmarit have had some of their edge curvature and lack of sharpness decreased.

As far as whether they'd fit the Dragon/Weapon camera's, all the pictures I've seen of the older models indicate they might, but probably wouldn't, as the rear-lens-element housing can be seen to extend right up to (and maybe past) the workable limit. They definitely wouldn't fit on the pre-interchangeable OLPF MX Scarlet/Epic's.

Congrats on being in line for the 8K Helium too, that's looking to be an awesome sensor.
 
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Les -- I'll assume that the DSMC1 & DSMC2 OLPF filters have identical aperture openings, as both need to handle 6K. If this is so, then you and I agree on
the horizontal opening of 33mm. AOK ! (very nice images, BTW !)

The 38mm figure is what I measured on the 21mm 'Lux, including the outside barrel that drives the Floating Elements. So, it looks like I need to shave/carve
some 6mm from the "horizontal edges" of the plastic sides.

Got a return e-mail from RED: they don't have any 8K VV OLPFs for sale (didn't say when they would have, and didn't say what the horizontal opening width
on the 8K VV OLPFs was, either. Sent another e-mail asking for availability & width of 8K VV opening.

Progress, but very slowly.

Best -
Serge

Les Hillis said:
Thanks for the extra info Serge.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying it's not the rear-most lens element that's being obstructed by the OLPF holder, but that what's being blocked is a 38mm wide part of the lens mechanism that extends from the rear of the lens mount, as indicated here -



And that it's the outer parts of the OLPF holder I've measured here (on the DSMC[SUP]1[/SUP] version) that are causing the obstruction -



I can see that 38mm diameter part moving as the focus is adjusted on all the Leica-M lenses I've tested, but have never seen it extend beyond the chrome part of the mount, so didn't even realize it could be a problem, sorry about that.
Click to expand...
 
Even the official Leica product shots are photo-shopped sometimes.

The newer version of the Summicron 28mm (#11672) still has a protruding rear lens element like the previous #11604 model.

The new model can be seen here - http://www.popflash.com/11672

It's possible it still might fit though. If you can check one out in person you can make some measurements.
 
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