Last minute DP job 10 million views

[Raj Dye]

That was a personal attack for which he is not man enough to own up to or just believes he has the right to demean others. No room for that on REDUSER. We will agree to disagree about the work but showing a lack of respect for your fellow man and REDUSER is not getting a pass.

I did say that and I don't regret it. I do not apologize for it. It is an honest and true appraisal of the work that you presented from my point of view.

If you somehow think that this represents the views of Red or RedUser.net then you are very much mistaken. I speak only for myself. These are my strongly held opinions and beliefs not those of Red or the RedUser forum.

If you choose to leave this forum that is up to you. I have spent too much valuable time on this thread as well. I will be turning my attention to more productive matters also. Good day sir.

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

:chillpill: raj, this is a pro forum with tons of great info, I have watched similar fourms fall apart with the real pros leave because of personal attacks

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I'm going to allow myself to butt in.

Raj, you are not helping. The point is made and clear. Please re-consider and make a distinction between the choices you addressed and the man and show the respect and consideration you seek. Otherwise the good stuff burns away.

 

[Keith B Plummer]

I expected you would say that. One day you will learn that to state your opinion you don't have to try and demean others. At no time did I attack you. I don't know you! You based your opinion of me on one video that you saw out of the thousands that I have done over a 30 year career in broadcasting and production. Not fair or smart. Again you don't know me.

Yet the big question remains, why attack me for a day hire? It's not my music, not my editing, not my music company and I didn't direct it. You didn't even ask if I felt safe doing the shoot or was I happy with the result, what was it like shooting at 120fps most of the time.

One day you will understand when you get hired for a job, you do it to the best of your ability and then it's out of your hands. Blaming me for shooting it is so out there! Someone was going to shoot it and people were going to see it and listen to it whether I was there or not. Rule 1 make the client happy!

AGAIN my post was, always do your best because you never know who or how many people will see it. If you didn't get that then you missed the meat of the thread. I learned a long time ago you cannot win these thread battles, that's why I don't get in them.

So, thanks for this most enjoyable experience on posting something here. I hope other occasional posters don't get treated this way. I'm done and again best of luck. Have your last word and move on. I have.

 

[Brice Ansel]

That's a poor soul convinced that unintelligible babble about guns and money in 2016 over three sounds which a 5 y.o. could make with a casio keyboard, is music. Living in an illusion of achievement, designed by retardation creating media system to keep the masses as retarded as possible.
And before the social engineers turning the wheels of mass psyche design system called "entertainment" turned this music to utmost garbage and slop for the brain dead,


...some 20 years ago there was this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjsPG0Kspxo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXJc2NYwHjw


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHRnvjCkTsw



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC1xuVCBl4o&list=RDgC1xuVCBl4o



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM4kqL13jGM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VCdJyOAQYM



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbulmeDErOk



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuhaFdBuwp4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuhaFdBuwp4



Ditto
You just forgot this band

1994

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd3vtNFItAk

Lyrics


"Deep In The Jungle"
(feat. Latyrx)

[Gift of Gab]
And I come like this

[scratched]
I've got a few things I wanna say

[Gift of Gab]
I'm gunnin', ya runnin away, do not stay
Cuz the wrath of the gift will be hittin' ya spliff
And a lot of the crews got sprayed and yelled RAID
Like a couple of roaches, as struggle approaches,
A brother'll blow this
Another ferocious jam, I smother the ?grossagran?
I hover above the land of lame emcees that dont blow
I'm poppin' the clip and then bo bo with the gun
And a once in a munch chest, rest in peace
And I ?bellow you to beast? I abolish emcees with sounds like these
Run over enemies and I rest in the west
Dark hemisphere, burn wit a fear is nothin but a mere setback
Hear when I'm here,
Earn wit a clear conscience in the middle of the jet black
I'm a dog, running through the jungle
Wit a hoodie and black hat choppin down ?noonsies?
Not a frog, cunning yet I'm humble
Gotta do the jewels tack wack talkin clowns
Tip me, I'ma knock 'em all around, bust a front
With a fat blunt swinging on a vine in the homeland
I'ma tack 'em in the sound little punks when the rap bump
Springin on the rhyme I bowl man
Gifted when I'm lifted off a spliff hit,
Reminisce shit, riff with dipshits
This shit is the mischievous style of the gifted,
I'm a whiz kid, get a whiff kid
Swingin' down low, breakin' down flows
With a new flow medley outgrow when you step back
To the black with a fat rap with a fat sack
With a little bit a funk in my napsack
Take it back to the brother land
And I was smotherin' stupid idiots like Tarzan
Givin' back to the brother man and get another land,
Man gimme it, its Or-land-o
How easy and tight wishin' into the depths
Up in the sound in the heart of the jungle
Gettin' wild with the art of the rumble,
Never amount to be smarter than Dumbo
Make 'em mumble, make 'em humble,
Get me round from the start, you will crumble,
And you tumble, and you stumble
And I do it like that
From the end to the other end never gonna end,
Set a trend with the maniac mic clutch
Hey ?bob by the ba?, said you keep your day job
My competitors never know the right touch
Have to bail through the backstreets, raisin' hell to a black beat
Rappers fail to attack me, like a sail with the slack g
I attack 'em like acne, exactly UGH

[spoken]
Mindless cretins grow through idiosynchrosy
Peels up, rising up, down

[Lateef]
Steppin' up through the deep, dank murkiness
No telling what is lurking
I hero it, but will I sense a jerkin
I proceed to bust a buster
Cuz I trust the finer design in the mind of the rhyme
Just about impossible to find
What a disgrace to the race of wack mc's
I am because I choose to stand my ground
FIRM and blowin' the rhythm the vermin and learnin'
All I know is we've earned every entry attained
And strained the game, and what I'm tryin' to explain is that
The deeper we're creepin' the more we find sleepin'
And slippin' just shootin' dead lips on a mission
Its missin' the reason the gift we've been given the rhythm
Cuz that just the way we've been livin
And thrive in the essence, survive and its easy
To recognize when analyzing ?the bo?
Surprises the lame in this line and tryin'
To get you to buy into their fantasy world
Can it be damaged the ?emina? bones
Of the fellas and men thats exploting my culture
Can't understand every breast that you touch
Was as up ?paper scun? be one hung motherfucker
Such as nowadays, its fallin' and splinterin', just timber, instead of
Gettin out of my way, and what I'm -- meaning to say is that
The canopy that covers me now is the blackest, attack this
I thought we already established the wackness
Presented in the cemented jungle
By the bumblin' brothers stumblin' tumblin' down
Surround me in a cannibalistic style, but I just smile and
Silence 'em like the lambs, they all the whole flock
We just one magic stock style
I'm gettin' 'em off like crack viles, and wicked the whole fuckin while
Not trippin over no vines, or over no swine, or over no mines
Or over no line at the plot
Thinkin' of whippin' 'em like a glock in the jungle

[spoken]
Now in the beginning of the journey
Not in time, but in the mind
Imagine the camels being loaded up
The men, loading themselves up
It's a long journey -- the oasis is all in the clamor
As we start from the top we go to the very bottom
Of a myserious place -- a very mysterious place
What's that I see? Ahhhh

[Lyrics Born]
I can't even describe you, so I ain't even gon' try...hmmmm
Making hell of mc Asia is now this I dont dispute but you knew
You knew Lyrics Born was a ripped off note sheet of a hundred
And you scrape the paint off your bumpers making sure you beat the buzzer
Making sure Lyrics Born came out his mother's stomach
Covered with the lyrics that kill
No bumper, right? Cuz mo'fucka
I know you can make colors rhyme
And have the whole goddamn planet yellin uncle at you and even
Still take the time big up little ?egg?, can you imagine?
Big up Asia Born, this little bottle
Or that you would even be lightly concerned with little, little words
That you would tug at the line, pullin' the kind
Of lyrics out my mouth that make me big bad don, takin' kids' legs home
You can't even back a sliver roach, you know
That type shit, and then watch me wreck this stage
Boy like I got your daddy's style hangin' around my waist
And then watch me forget -- the way
Good lyrics taste, thinkin' I just ain't little rabbit eyes in your heart
Man, cuz if I thought it was just
Lyrics Born that made lyrics born, lyrics born
And then suddenly I can't do no more, I'd be like
"Do you remember me?" No, Asia
And you used to play my record on the way to the vapor


Peace
B.

 

[Michael Hastings]

I expected you would say that. One day you will learn that to state your opinion you don't have to try and demean others. At no time did I attack you. I don't know you! You based your opinion of me on one video that you saw out of the thousands that I have done over a 30 year career in broadcasting and production. Not fair or smart. Again you don't know me.

Yet the big question remains, why attack me for a day hire? It's not my music, not my editing, not my music company and I didn't direct it. You didn't even ask if I felt safe doing the shoot or was I happy with the result, what was it like shooting at 120fps most of the time.

One day you will understand when you get hired for a job, you do it to the best of your ability and then it's out of your hands. Blaming me for shooting it is so out there! Someone was going to shoot it and people were going to see it and listen to it whether I was there or not. Rule 1 make the client happy!

AGAIN my post was, always do your best because you never know who or how many people will see it. If you didn't get that then you missed the meat of the thread. I learned a long time ago you cannot win these thread battles, that's why I don't get in them.

So, thanks for this most enjoyable experience on posting something here. I hope other occasional posters don't get treated this way. I'm done and again best of luck. Have your last word and move on. I have.

Always dangerous to chime in on these threads so I'm hesitant but here goes:


First of all try not to take the comments so personally - only you know the total situation, your intentions, motivations, etc. and can judge and evaluate them yourself. Raj did have one line that was somewhat personal but it seemed that in the bulk of it he was trying to make a larger point about our industry and society. Is it so bad to ask whether we as creators should push back against the overabundance of violence in features, television shows, and videos? Just because "someone will do it" isn't the greatest excuse - it seems like that race to the bottom is what is happening in so many areas of our society - business, politics, etc.

And in defense of Raj and those that are pushing back against your choice - you say this is just one video of "thousands that I have done over a 30 year career in broadcasting and production" - yet this is the one you chose to bring up on Reduser - starting three different threads about it. The first got zero responses, the second got three responses, and now this thread - over 50.

And if it is about the "10 million views" why is that so special? I've had the same 30+ year career (first national story was in 82 or 83) and if you had any shoots for a national broadcast show in those first fifteen years before internet/youtube you knew that at least 10 million viewers would see it and tried to do your best. (even a local story got hundreds of thousands).

In short, your three threads about this video got very little discussion of the technique/technical side but this one sparked another discussion - maybe that's a good thing.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

I'm not saying that it is illegal Šabović Adis.

Withholding?

I am saying that it has no artistic value.

A hill, for example, has no artistic value...or the corner of my neighbor's house - it, put simply, is what it is.
There's more to this video than just a video...it's got a message.

I am saying that it has less than zero artistic value really.

And I say You're joking.

I am saying that this is harmful for children and other living things to watch and absorb this material. That is my strongly held opinion.

Now, read Your first line in this post again!


Questions:
Is there anything, that Keith did, that is wrong? Anything at all?!
How can it not be illegal if there is? And if there is, and You're not suing him, that makes You an acomplice.

So, I'll simply quote myself: Number 2, wanna bet?
How's this? :biggrin:

 

[Ben Scott]

I've no idea why so many people are giving the OP so much grief.

He did a good job on a promo and posted it. The end. You don't like the promo? Fair enough. You don't like his work? Fair enough.

But people should be ashamed of themselves for going all guns blazing calling out a type of music they don't like/get and laying the blame for society's ills at its door, as though our parents didn't do this over metal, our grandparents didn't do this over Elvis and their parents over big swing bands.

Reading this thread is like going to a forum where only the parents from Footloose can post.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

But people should be ashamed of themselves for going all guns blazing calling out a type of music they don't like/get and laying the blame for society's ills at its door, as though our parents didn't do this over metal, our grandparents didn't do this over Elvis and their parents over big swing bands.

Reading this thread is like going to a forum where only the parents from Footloose can post.

"People should be ashamed of themselves" ?

Sounds like something grandparents would say.

 

[Michael Hastings]

I've no idea why so many people are giving the OP so much grief.

He did a good job on a promo and posted it. The end. You don't like the promo? Fair enough. You don't like his work? Fair enough.

But people should be ashamed of themselves for going all guns blazing calling out a type of music they don't like/get and laying the blame for society's ills at its door, as though our parents didn't do this over metal, our grandparents didn't do this over Elvis and their parents over big swing bands.

Reading this thread is like going to a forum where only the parents from Footloose can post.

And why are you going so hard at people who are giving their opinion on the content? If it weren't for the discussion of content and its value the thread would have died just like the previous two threads he posted it in.

(The first thread in march got two one line "atta boy" posts - nothing about camera, technique or whatever, and the third post was someone wanting to network)

(The second thread in July got not a single response.)

So what was the point of this that justified three threads?

My previous post was just defending the idea that even on Reduser it might be okay to go into opinions on the value of content. If we were only allowed to talk about the camera/technical side I wouldn't have posted anything because it seemed to be pretty much standard low budget music video - lots of quick cut handheld/tilt camera shots - just fine by a good cameraman but nothing to complain or get too excited about. 120 fps and monochrome - not anything particularly new in music vids. Wouldn't normally have posted because just saying it was decent or average might be taken as an insult. In the end, the back and forth about the possible societal value of the piece is what made this thread interesting and a couple pages long. - And 3200+ views - who knew? :wink5:

 

[Nick Morrison]

I've no idea why so many people are giving the OP so much grief.

He did a good job on a promo and posted it. The end. You don't like the promo? Fair enough. You don't like his work? Fair enough.

But people should be ashamed of themselves for going all guns blazing calling out a type of music they don't like/get and laying the blame for society's ills at its door, as though our parents didn't do this over metal, our grandparents didn't do this over Elvis and their parents over big swing bands.

Reading this thread is like going to a forum where only the parents from Footloose can post.

I have to agree with Ben here.

Keith's video is like thousands of others like it. Holding him responsible for the aesthetic of a cultural form seems absurd to me. Especially when this aesthetic wasn't his CHOICE. His job was merely to capture that choice on a RED CAMERA (which is what he was posting about). He made it clear he didn't know what he was shooting when he signed up...the day before.

It bears repeating....this is supposed to be a technical forum, not a home for ethical crusades.

And if we ARE going to be critics, IMHO Art Criticism is at it's best when it remains unemotional and detached (ie w/out morality...opinions become 100% about Aesthetic and Form).

But once you throw in ethics and emotions, the commentary gets so personal ART and ARTIST become hard to separate, and the intimacy starts becoming unbearable.

Truth is, if you have an ethical issue with the content, you should take those concerns up with the director or artist, as they are the closest to these aesthetic choices.

 

[Jason L]

Ha. Yeah, why did you create three threads about this video.

I usually stay away from these threads, but personally I think all of the flipping off the camera should have been scaled back. Plus having minors on a set like that just isn't good. Also having people point a gun at you? I hope it was fake.

 

[Daniel Pearson]

IMHO Art Criticism is at it's best when it remains unemotional and detached (ie w/out morality...opinions become 100% about Aesthetic and Form).

Can art criticism ever be truly unemotional, art being entirely subjective?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Keith's video is like thousands of others like it. Holding him responsible for the aesthetic of a cultural form seems absurd to me. Especially when this aesthetic wasn't his CHOICE. His job was merely to capture that choice on a RED CAMERA (which is what he was posting about). He made it clear he didn't know what he was shooting when he signed up...the day before.

Keith is irrelevant here. He'll be fine.
The main premise of the issue seems to be systematically missed.

Main premise watered down to prevent further running in circles and songs of hurt Egos:
(easily offended yet numb to bang bang may want to look the other way)

As long as everyone keeps playing dumb and/or uninterested about anything else but his own ass, you will have people blowing their heads off on a daily basis, because during developing phase of the mind they perceived their "heroes" systematically promoting/doing it on a shiny box/screen and assimilated it in their subconscious as a possible reality to live in.

Something which needs no special explanations in many parts of the world. Or inside a professional domain, where some actually are aware what the f**k they are doing when they are creating imagery for others to assimilate.

Folks can continue to pat each other on the back as much as they want, hide behind the "art" or live in denial from now till infinity, principles of psyche will not adapt to anyone's wishful thinking, nor the problem will go away by itself. Nor the shit on the plates will suddenly turn into an elixir. And some will eventually have to grab a shovel and take care of all this shit.

It bears repeating....this is supposed to be a technical forum, not a home for ethical crusades.

Technically speaking,

light enters the eye, which transforms visual sensation into neural data, which a brain forms into an image. Which has meaning to the owner of the brain. Which stays burried in the subconscious. So the mind shaped by the input acts according to predominant input.

So in a disbalanced state of a person without proper upbringing and a healthy life, unable to control the emotions or think rationally, due to internal or external factors (both shaped by the culture creating mechanism) the owner gets the urge to press the trigger, which leads to a bullet exiting the barrel at very high speed towards someone's face. The kinetic force and surface hardness of the bullet result in brain matter splattering onto a surface behind.

To record that one needs a very high frame rate and a fast shutter, which requires a lot of light. Compression can be a deal braker, with macro shots of a human brain tissue falling apart for CSI like shots, so better to watch out in advance to meet strict QC factors of the broadcaster.

If one shoots in 8K, some cool digital zooms into messed up human brain might be awesome, while still leaving enough detail for 4K delivery and unforgettable effect to the viewer, which as long as it's "exciting" is desired.
That way CGI may not be required and one can produce it all much cheaper and get prime time with juicy shots of a messed up human brain, "entertaining" many just before bed. From Monday to Friday.

...

It must be the weather.

...

But once you throw in ethics and emotions, the commentary gets so personal ART and ARTIST become hard to separate, and the intimacy starts becoming unbearable.

No, not really.

Ethics and emotions are completely separate factors. Latter are subjective, prior aren't. And one learns to make a distinction and priorities with proper education and healthy maturing process.

Truth is, if you have an ethical issue with the content, you should take those concerns up with the director or artist, as they are the closest to these aesthetic choices.

Those braniacs are not on the forum so the shooter bragging about the views got the thick end of the stick. What 'ya gonna do. Life is a bitch. There are some gun crazy crusaders on forums so innocent catch the bullet.

 

[Andy Roberts]

As long as everyone keeps playing dumb...

This question MUST be truthfully answered: Does media (visual, musical, verbal, etc.) consequentially affect a person’s choices and actions? Or is media completely powerless to alter a person’s choices, personality and worldview?

If media does indeed consequentially affect a person, then media makers are society shapers. And with that power comes tremendous responsibility. A hired cinematography shooter is therefore no less responsible for the societal results of the video than a sharpshooter hired to assassinate an individual. The sharpshooter may have spent an entire career shooting animals for food and sport, but if he is hired to shoot a person, even with no ill will in his heart, the results will still be the same. His skills have played a part in changing someone’s future.

Because I believe that media makers are society shapers, I want EVERYTHING that I lend my skills to, to be something that my children can see and that I’m proud to be part of… something that is pushing society forward and upward and not pushing it further down the hole of hate, violence, racism, lust, abuse, chemical dependency, and human exploitation and trafficking.

But if that is true, then the mandatory followup discussion of ethics becomes such a slippery slope because ultimately either there is or there is not an objective standard of what is ethical and what is unethical -- what is helpful to society, and therefore good, and what is harmful to society, and therefore evil.

But even if collectively the human race came up with an agreed upon “ethic” by which we could each objectively use to make such decisions, there remains that fundamental flaw within each of us that says together with Frank Sinatra, “I did it my way.” Because no matter how good the objective ethical code, the human soul fights to be its OWN master and do whatever it wants and neither a holy man, nor a holy book, nor a fellow group of Redusers can make him or her think and act otherwise. That is our natural condition. And then Newton’s 2nd Law of Thermodynamics bears down on society… societal entropy. Some are contributing towards speeding up the process, some towards slowing it down. But as wise Yoda would say, “Reversable it is not." At least not through natural means

 

[Ben Scott]

And why are you going so hard at people who are giving their opinion on the content? If it weren't for the discussion of content and its value the thread would have died just like the previous two threads he posted it in.

(The first thread in march got two one line "atta boy" posts - nothing about camera, technique or whatever, and the third post was someone wanting to network)

(The second thread in July got not a single response.)

So what was the point of this that justified three threads?

He's clearly pleased with his work. I'd rather see this posted again than yet another 'group but gone wrong' thread. I'm going so hard because I am so surprised that a community of storytellers working in the OTHER industry that gets blamed for all that is wrong in the world would be so blinkered about a form of artistic expression just because they are not the target demographic.

I fail to see how this is any worse than the Sex Pistols.

 

[Ben Scott]

Just to say, I grew up watching horror and war films and reading horror and violent books and listening to all manner of aggressive music across various genres as a child and have never hurt a soul.

If if kids have murderers or other terrible people as heroes censure the parents not the artists because that's where the issue lies.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Moralising is easy. Wonder how many of you would have refused the music video that the OP posted?

As far as porn is concerned, once I was offered a film which was bordering on porn. At that time I was in severe financial stress. Though I was offered a lot of money, I walked out from the film. However, I don't preach other people that they should also refuse such shoots as I did.

Having said that, it is easy to know that something is porn but may be difficult for the cinematographer to understand the message and then decide if he did the right thing to shoot that video. There is way too much violence in all the movies that we see. Just look at the cartoon films in TV. The amount of violence there is amazing. So I don't think many people will reject shooting videos just because guns are there. Glorifying drugs is another thing though.

10 million hits is huge. I am sure there will be many more videos like that soon.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

This question MUST be truthfully answered: Does media (visual, musical, verbal, etc.) consequentially affect a person’s choices and actions? Or is media completely powerless to alter a person’s choices, personality and worldview?

Media is a mean of shaping mass psyche.

Made and used primarily for that purpose.

But if that is true, then the mandatory followup discussion of ethics becomes such a slippery slope because ultimately either there is or there is not an objective standard of what is ethical and what is unethical -- what is helpful to society, and therefore good, and what is harmful to society, and therefore evil.

There is an objective part. Which is learned in a proper educational system and faculties defining the sensibility and utilization are cultivated and developed.

Those interested in that part, not buying the M.O. propagated by the current OS have the privilege many before did not and can use www. sitting at their fingertips, to educate themselves on the matter. Known and taught for thousands of years in one way or the other.

But even if collectively the human race came up with an agreed upon “ethic” by which we could each objectively use to make such decisions, there remains that fundamental flaw within each of us that says together with Frank Sinatra, “I did it my way.” Because no matter how good the objective ethical code, the human soul fights to be its OWN master

Should one find the time and invest some effort on educating oneself one might find that is not the Soul and find out what that actually is. And that "my way" does not necessitate shitting in someone else's plate.

Allegory of the Chariot might be a good place to start.

 

[Michael Hastings]

snip
Keith's video is like thousands of others like it. Holding him responsible for the aesthetic of a cultural form seems absurd to me. Especially when this aesthetic wasn't his CHOICE. His job was merely to capture that choice on a RED CAMERA (which is what he was posting about). He made it clear he didn't know what he was shooting when he signed up...the day before.
[/I]

As Hrvoje said, the discussion moved beyond keith and his role. I don't fault Keith for taking the job - on low budget, one day shoots you usually don't really know what it is going to be and even while shooting you don't know where it is going to end up, so unless it turns out to be a snuff film or something I wouldn't expect him to walk away - that would be unnecessary and unprofessional.

HOWEVER.... He did create three separate, identical threads about it that got little to no technical commentary so to some extent he's promoting it - and that got someone to comment on the content and started the whole discussion - somewhat interesting and generated thousands of views. If it is so terrible to discuss and critique on Reduser the artistic and social merit of the content we shoot then a moderator should just close it down.

I get why we don't want to get very far into discussing various religions, political parties and such - but I think it is possible to have these artistic/social merit discussions without ruining the site.

PS And Hrvoje has made - it seems to me - some intelligent, articulate comments that weren't overly antagonistic.

Just to say, I grew up watching horror and war films and reading horror and violent books and listening to all manner of aggressive music across various genres as a child and have never hurt a soul.

If if kids have murderers or other terrible people as heroes censure the parents not the artists because that's where the issue lies.

Just because you absorbed those things without "hurting a soul" whether through better parenting, better environment, better alternatives or whatever doesn't mean that it wouldn't affect others differently. But I think it would be foolish to suggest that rap, hip hop or whatever it is has had no negative consequences. How much positive effect it has had I will let others with greater knowledge of the history and breadth of the genre judge.