KOMODO....

[Hrvoje Simic]

This industry is so focused on keeping up appearances that we stifle innovation almost every step of the way. When a new piece of gear is introduced, the reaction is "Great, how is *this* gonna screw me?" instead of excitement. We chide gear when it fails, badtalk manufacturers when their equipment breaks, and get upset when things aren't backwards compatible. It causes manufacturers to be overly conservative and leads them to spend time building features that facilitate stubborn crewmember's old-school ways, instead of innovating.

"Subborn crewmember's old school ways" =
how to get shit done reliably, repeatedly, within precise timeframe and coordination, In 4 a.m, Nth take, exhausted, wet, frozen...so hundreds of people on set keep working like an army, meeting shooting schedule and instantly adapting to changes and unforseen circumstances while money is melting away by the second.

"Gimme everyting now, every second something new and I'll figure out ways to work around the rest and adapt the shooting workflow, yaay new stuff" = explorative privilege many crew members on set do not have.

"How can this screw me?" - rational reaction from anyone who's job involves responsibility towards hundreds of people on set, shooting schedule and larger sums of money invested in the project

"This new camera/professional tool a/b/c I've seen on the internet sucks because it doesn't incporporate what I imagined" - irrational reaction from mindsets sitting at home with zero film set experience and consumeristic sense of entitlement.

Film needs to become more tolerant of failure if we want to start seeing some really cool shit.

Film needs to be done through principles of filmmaking, which have little to do with someone's whims and "stubborn old school ways", optimization to which took decades of perfection, generations of passing knowledge, years of practice to learn to be able to adequately fit in the film set machinery, and products designed for filmmaking have to be adapted for film workflow. Or they don't get used on film sets.

If a new camera/tool feature enables more, is reliable, practical, robust etc it eventually gets used in most tasking and riskful production environment, which is a higher budget film, series or TVC set, by highly skilled, highly adaptable set ninjas. Who typically don't get to work - or stay, on a film set, if stubborness is their character trait.

 

[Han Vogen]

Bonus for film makers: Komodo is going to be cheaper than the 1DX Mark III, while being lighter, more compact, more powerful, and more flexible.

These are completely different cameras. While I would expect the Komodo to be the better option for cinema work the 1DXMK3 will no doubt be more versatile as it also shoots stills. And while I have high hopes that the AF that Komodo offers will be usable, I think comparing it to what will likely be the most advanced AF the world has ever known is a bit of a reach. For ruggedness I also believe the nod will go to the Canon. Also, let’s not forget, the 1DXMK3 is full frame.

While I will get the Komodo, it’s not because I expect it to have more processing power, or be tougher, or have superior AF. I’m getting it for the size, weight and expected image characteristics. These are very different cameras. The form factor of the Komodo lends itself better to rigging. It will balance more easily on a gimbal. While there is some overlap they are designed with different primary use cases in mind.

Strangely, while some here complain that Komodo would be better served with an EF or PL mount, I complain that the 1DXMK3 was not given an RF Mount. I’m good with Komodo as is. I feel it’s balanced and seems to offer a great set of features that thus far have been unavailable.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Panasonic sold off their fabrication division but, like most other camera makers including Red, will probably continue to design new sensors for their products and farm out the manufacturing.

Right... so hopefully Panasonic is either continuing to work with TowerJazz on developing organic sensors, or part of the purchase agreement includes the two manufacturers acquiring rights to use the organic sensor technology that Panasonic has developed. It seems like it would be in everyone's best interest for both to have it, since Panasonic will be partnering with at least one of them to get its sensors fabricated, and if they gain the IP then they can amortize the continued R&D costs over other fabrication customers' orders, saving everyone money in the long run.

My guess is that if not, Sony's just going to keep becoming more dominant...

 

[Fahnon Bennett]

These are completely different cameras. While I would expect the Komodo to be the better option for cinema work the 1DXMK3 will no doubt be more versatile as it also shoots stills. And while I have high hopes that the AF that Komodo offers will be usable, I think comparing it to what will likely be the most advanced AF the world has ever known is a bit of a reach. For ruggedness I also believe the nod will go to the Canon. Also, let’s not forget, the 1DXMK3 is full frame.

While I will get the Komodo, it’s not because I expect it to have more processing power, or be tougher, or have superior AF. I’m getting it for the size, weight and expected image characteristics. These are very different cameras. The form factor of the Komodo lends itself better to rigging. It will balance more easily on a gimbal. While there is some overlap they are designed with different primary use cases in mind.

Strangely, while some here complain that Komodo would be better served with an EF or PL mount, I complain that the 1DXMK3 was not given an RF Mount. I’m good with Komodo as is. I feel it’s balanced and seems to offer a great set of features that thus far have been unavailable.

I agree with this. Depending on your needs, a FF raw-shooting hybrid camera that is also the most rugged and fastest stills camera Canon makes may be a better fit than Komodo. Totally different cameras with some overlap.

 

[Andy_Johnson]

Hey why not wait to see what the Komodo will be? No point arguing about something that isn’t even out yet.

x1000

 

[Andy Jarosz]

"Subborn crewmember's old school ways" =
how to get shit done reliably, repeatedly, within precise timeframe and coordination, In 4 a.m, Nth take, exhausted, wet, frozen...so hundreds of people on set keep working like an army, meeting shooting schedule and instantly adapting to changes and unforseen circumstances while money is melting away by the second.

"Gimme everyting now, every second something new and I'll figure out ways to work around the rest and adapt the shooting workflow, yaay new stuff" = explorative privilege many crew members on set do not have.

"How can this screw me?" - rational reaction from anyone who's job involves responsibility towards hundreds of people on set, shooting schedule and larger sums of money invested in the project

"This new camera/professional tool a/b/c I've seen on the internet sucks because it doesn't incporporate what I imagined" - irrational reaction from mindsets sitting at home with zero film set experience and consumeristic sense of entitlement.



Film needs to be done through principles of filmmaking, which have little to do with someone's whims and "stubborn old school ways", optimization to which took decades of perfection, generations of passing knowledge, years of practice to learn to be able to adequately fit in the film set machinery, and products designed for filmmaking have to be adapted for film workflow. Or they don't get used on film sets.

If a new camera/tool feature enables more, is reliable, practical, robust etc it eventually gets used in most tasking and riskful production environment, which is a higher budget film, series or TVC set, by highly skilled, highly adaptable set ninjas. Who typically don't get to work - or stay, on a film set, if stubborness is their character trait.

Totally get it. We've all been there at 4AM in the bottom of the quarry with 30mph winds just struggling to exist, much less shoot. The issue is systemic and fundamental, it certainly won't be solved by a camera company. When I say film needs to be more tolerant of failure, I don't mean camera dept--I mean the way production operates as a whole.

It's a mindset change, the industries that advance the most have a "fail fast" mentality that facilitates curiosity and innovation and ensures things always move forward. But in film, where millions of dollars rest on your shoulders, you have to always choose the safest path, leading to stagnation. Everyone must convince everyone else they have a plan, that they know exactly how everything works, and that they are the best choice. This leads to hubris basically being a job requirement. "I don't know, let's figure it out" is a red flag phrase on set, whereas it should be the basis of all operation.

I think it was a Disney imagineer who said "it's too easy to be conservative when you have a deadline."

Anyway! Komodo! Will Arri respond?

 

[Eric Lange]

<snip > <No worries all good stuff ~ snipped for clarity>

But for that one lens mount to work , you need to make sure its better than everything else that it is trying to replace... and there can't be any politics.

Thanks for laying that all out .

Hypothetically assuming there is something "Better" than everything else , or just substantially better in a number of key forward thinking ways …

... And there can't be any politics

^^^ How does that work ? I'm trying to understand better how current "Politics" is obstructive to that idea ? Beyond proprietary / commercial formats that seek to be more exclusive than inclusive (in some cases).

Supposing there was a mounting system that did not operate in the same way as current methods and offered key advantages (in a forward looking way), I think such a system would just be ignored and then eventually would be knocked off... And then would degenerate into it's own variants the SONY version or the Canon Version etc. once again. + different sizes*

Any chance you can expand on the "can't be any politics" idea ? ~ Selfishly I'm interested in your view of that whole landscape (something I don't have a decent frame of reference for.).

Ta.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


* For example in the machine tool industry there's a reasonable analog with tool holders for mills and mill turn machines … CAT 40 vs, CT 40 vs BBT 40, or 30 taper machines or need for 50 taper machines , the "Germans" tried to advance and standardize things with HSK interface HSK 63, HSK 100 etc. etc., larger and smaller variants with various advantages and disadvantages , then there 's CAPTO C6 (and it's variants) really excellent solution for mill-turn machines but much more expensive yet overall superior performance. etc. similarly with pallet systems and so on. The physical engineering of these systems and their respective "Sand pits" and intended applications all require different physical solutions that are appropriate to their needs. ~ Not sure a "universal" interface for that would ever be possible regardless of various "Histories" and proprietary needs. I'm not so sure the mounting systems for various current lens types are that different in the need for certain functional variants by necessity.

 

[German Libenson]

Hi Jarred,

Would you please give us a tentative date for the release of Komodo's full specs? I am looking forward to puchasing one.
Thanks!

 

[Peter Stanley]

I think they’ll be out in selected hands late May... early orders arriving in other peoples hands into June, July and August.

I’ll order one as soon I can but I don’t think I’ll have it until well into the second half of the year.

hope I’m wrong but Just being realistic... but I think this camera is worth that kind of wait.

 

[German Libenson]

I understand that. I was just asking about specs. Let's keep our fingers crossed hoping that Jarred can enlighten us before the end of this week.

 

[Adam Johnson]

Jarred - thank you for listening to the community. RF Mount and AF technology is the future of cinema

 

[Sergio Perez]

I think if you fast forward a few years there will be the most amount of 3rd party lenses outside Canon offered in an RF mount, just like right now there are more EF lenses then any other. Sony did a really really great job with the a7 cameras, they deserve some sort of award for pushing the entire dslr market forward , and I bought everything they released. The GM lenses sony makes for that system is fantastic. But since the release of the R / RF system I haven't picked up the a7/a9 once... and the new RF glass is outstanding. I don't need to tell you how much I am in love with it.. I released the first cinema camera with an RF mount... before even Canon.

But the problem with the RF mount is that its owned by a camera company and Nikon will never use it, nor will Sony nor will Panasoinc on their little mirrorless cameras. I like to think we knocked down some of those walls when we introduced the changeable lens mount into the cinema world.... now almost every cinema camera company offers a canon mount for their cameras. That was awesome in one way but in another for the customer it made things a bit more difficult... we actually kinda fucked things up. Before we did the whole removable mount thing you could ONLY buy cinema glass in a PL mount. Now you need to buy a couple different lens mounts as well as making a decision on which mount to buy your lenses in. It would just be EASIER if we all reverted to just one mount... and every camera and lens company followed.

But for that one lens mount to work , you need to make sure its better than everything else that it is trying to replace... and there can't be any politics.

What you and your team did with the interchangeable mounts was one of the biggest step forwards in the digital independent cinema production. It opened a lot of creative options as well as brought PL prices down and the interest of still lenses developers and manufacturers to look at EF and other mounts lenses developments with cinematic and motion characteristics.

DSMC3 hopefully keeps this trend, opening up full capabilities for the major lenses brands!

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

AF pixels on sensors and the software in cameras are getting so good that there will be a day that 1st AC's are just touching eyeballs on an ipad to pull focus and all cinema lenses will have motors built into them. That day wont happen for a while.. but it probably should of happened already. We just all need to get out of our own way.

have you seen any Cinema Lenses with internal motors in prototype?

I talked to a rep at Zeiss about building a Cinema Lens with Internal Motors and he did even know about RT motion or FoolControl being able to use the internal autofocus motors that photographers use... his response was, "how would you change out a bad motor on a shoot?", (which is a good point), my response was that motor inside a weather sealed lens and being built for the lens, might have a longer lifetime than an external lens motor?

are there any improvements to peaking that Red plans to implement?

 

[Phil Holland]

have you seen any Cinema Lenses with internal motors in prototype?

2+ years ago:

https://www.panavision.com/products/primo-x

And more coming from other worlds.

Older than that, we've seen obviously older zooms with motor brackets on the lenses themselves a long, long while back on things like Angies and whatever.

Some of the bigger companies are looking at this harder right now. Hard nut to crack properly.

 

[Jarred Land]

have you seen any Cinema Lenses with internal motors in prototype?

I talked to a rep at Zeiss about building a Cinema Lens with Internal Motors and he did even know about RT motion or FoolControl being able to use the internal autofocus motors that photographers use... his response was, "how would you change out a bad motor on a shoot?", (which is a good point), my response was that motor inside a weather sealed lens and being built for the lens, might have a longer lifetime than an external lens motor?

are there any improvements to peaking that Red plans to implement?

Well... I started making a set of cinema lenses with motors in them about 6 or 7 years ago. And then the CEO of Panavision came by for a visit with the prototype new Primos.. which had motors in them.

And so I stopped. Because they were the right ones to introduce something like that to the AC's .

And then Panavision finished the lenses and they didn't really tell anyone about the motors for the first while... I guess you could call it a bit of a trojan horse, again.. there are some politics to that, but when when we started talking about me making them the DXL, The motorized lens integration was one ( of my only ) asks.

And then abracadabra... the Panavision Primo Artiste with internal motors are released. And they are incredibly awesome.

 

[Sean Solowiej]

If I should ever find myself doubting the money I spend on Red over the years, I need only think of it as going to support our market lobbyist so he can continue to push our agenda into the realm of results.

And I get a few amazing cameras and modules thrown in as perks!

Well... I started making a set of cinema lenses with motors in them about 6 or 7 years ago. And then the CEO of Panavision came by for a visit with the prototype new Primos.. which had motors in them.

And so I stopped. Because they were the right ones to introduce something like that to the AC's .

And then Panavision finished the lenses and they didn't really tell anyone about the motors for the first while... I guess you could call it a bit of a trojan horse, again.. there are some politics to that, but when when we started talking about me making them the DXL, The motorized lens integration was one ( of my only ) asks.

And then abracadabra... the Panavision Primo Artiste with internal motors are released. And they are incredibly awesome.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

Well... I started making a set of cinema lenses with motors in them about 6 or 7 years ago. And then the CEO of Panavision came by for a visit with the prototype new Primos.. which had motors in them.

And so I stopped. Because they were the right ones to introduce something like that to the AC's .

And then Panavision finished the lenses and they didn't really tell anyone about the motors for the first while... I guess you could call it a bit of a trojan horse, again.. there are some politics to that, but when when we started talking about me making them the DXL, The motorized lens integration was one ( of my only ) asks.

And then abracadabra... the Panavision Primo Artiste with internal motors are released. And they are incredibly awesome.

Slightly off topic but kudos about the DXL by the way.
It IS (to me) an ultra huge mega big deal to see that a company "as new as" RED made that camera for a company "as old* as" Panavision. What a testament to RED awesome team and knowledge.

*old is here used to mean it is an historical company.

 

[Bart Oerbekke]

Rumor roundup by proav

 

[Jarred Land]

Rumor roundup by proav

Well that was awesome. Well done.

 

[Christopher A. Bell]

have you seen any Cinema Lenses with internal motors in prototype?

I talked to a rep at Zeiss about building a Cinema Lens with Internal Motors and he did even know about RT motion or FoolControl being able to use the internal autofocus motors that photographers use... his response was, "how would you change out a bad motor on a shoot?", (which is a good point), my response was that motor inside a weather sealed lens and being built for the lens, might have a longer lifetime than an external lens motor?

are there any improvements to peaking that Red plans to implement?

2+ years ago:

https://www.panavision.com/products/primo-x

And more coming from other worlds.

Older than that, we've seen obviously older zooms with motor brackets on the lenses themselves a long, long while back on things like Angies and whatever.

Some of the bigger companies are looking at this harder right now. Hard nut to crack properly.

And let’s not forget ENG lenses. While the servos are technically housed outside in the lens grip, the grip is essentially permanently mounted in place and with regular service, the servos perform for years under extremely demanding and harsh conditions. My oldest, continuously used ENG lens is at least 15 years old and while it’s serviced regularly(used to be yearly) it’s only been in once for a servo specific problem.