KOMODO....

[Misha Engel]

Guys, I'm pretty sure Jarred did not say it is Global Shutter because of that type of sensor isn't really made anymore.

The MST4625A sensor can operate in rolling shutter, global shutter, and global reset modes.
https://www.fairchildimaging.com/products/scmos-sensors/mst4625a

 

[Christoffer Glans]

The MST4625A sensor can operate in rolling shutter, global shutter, and global reset modes.
https://www.fairchildimaging.com/products/scmos-sensors/mst4625a

This is the type of sensor that I meant when I mentioned having an option to switch between modes. If you have the option to switch between having lower framerates, maybe even lower DR, but global shutter for occasions where that is needed and then switch to rolling shutter to get improvements on other areas, that would be a very powerful option.

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

Baby Dragon, which became Komodo, started development way before Hydrogen was a thing. It was designed specifically to compliment our existing cameras in scenarios that its big brother cameras couldn't operate in and our sensor team was also given the task to solve one of the biggest issues that cmos sensors have, in which they succeeded.

I get it though.. The Hydrogen Camera module created confusion. This sensor was also going to be used for the Hydrogen module before that ended , which instantly created a ton of expectations and assumptions that crossed over to Komodo since that Hydrogen camera module was specifically targeted for the market you are convinced that Komodo belongs in. And so there is where you are right in pointing the finger, because It automatically inherits those comparisons.

Jarred, why are Hydrogen owners getting a discount on this camera? I agree it creates expectations and I struggle to understand what the rationale is when Komodo is a bad fit for most Hydrogen owners

 

[Phil Holland]

Jarred, why are Hydrogen owners getting a discount on this camera? I agree it creates expectations and I struggle to understand what the rationale is when Komodo is a bad fit for most Hydrogen owners

Personal take here. Likely due to the concept of many people purchasing the Hydrogen One with the expectation of some sort of camera module. After some time that module was proven to be a fairly limited and too exclusive concept once considering things like adding an additional battery to power it and lens mounts, which would make the module much closer in depth to Komodo anyways. The module held great expectations that were pretty counter intuitive to realities surrounding a good larger sensor camera and filming experience, though the prototype inspired much potential in the earliest of days. So in the end Komodo is a camera that everybody has access to and no matter what phone they own and even if they choose to use a phone to interact with the camera or not it's still a functioning camera. Which has a much broader market than something tied to a specific mobile device permanently. For those who own Hydrogen One phones, getting that discount towards a mobile filming ecosystem is a nice concession with the Hydrogen project being closed and honestly is a more useful camera overall that will outlast whatever mobile phone they are using this month.

Based on what Jarred has posted there will be Hydrogen/Android and eventually IOS connectivity with this Baby Dragon known as Komodo.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

There were a group of people who put down $1500 on Hydrogen not knowing even what it was. I was not such a person, but I respected their enthusiasm and loyalty. But as soon as it was announced that Hydrogen could be an accessory/modular element of the RED e osystem, I bought a Hydrogen for each of my RED cameras. Alas.

 

[andrewhake]

but 50-60 fps is a basic feature of media today.

No it isn't.

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

Personal take here. Likely due to the concept of many people purchasing the Hydrogen One with the expectation of some sort of camera module. After some time that module was proven to be a fairly limited and too exclusive concept once considering things like adding an additional battery to power it and lens mounts, which would make the module much closer in depth to Komodo anyways. The module held great expectations that were pretty counter intuitive to realities surrounding a good larger sensor camera and filming experience, though the prototype inspired much potential in the earliest of days. So in the end Komodo is a camera that everybody has access to and no matter what phone they own and even if they choose to use a phone to interact with the camera or not it's still a functioning camera. Which has a much broader market than something tied to a specific mobile device permanently. For those who own Hydrogen One phones, getting that discount towards a mobile filming ecosystem is a nice concession with the Hydrogen project being closed and honestly is a more useful camera overall that will outlast whatever mobile phone they are using this month.

Based on what Jarred has posted there will be Hydrogen/Android and eventually IOS connectivity with this Baby Dragon known as Komodo.

Thanks for your thoughts Phil. I tend to look at things more cynically. I think it's likely that they didn't sell enough Hydrogens to make module development worthwhile (plus they had issues with their ODM). A few months ago we were told that the pro camera development had been moved back to Red. Jim even said that they had "redesigned the package" in reference to the camera module. As more information becomes available about Komodo, it is becoming clear that this is not a redesigned Hydrogen module, it's a separate project they have been working on for ages for a specific purpose. Don't get me wrong, Komodo looks great, and I might take advantage of the discount, but I think the attempt by Red to spin the cancellation of modules as a pivot to a better solution has created a lot of confusion and expectation.

 

[Phil Holland]

confusion and expectation.

I'm certainly fine with that perspective on things if that your perception.

The reality of early module prototypes shown which didn't take into account powering the module itself and a battery module was at least mentioned once or twice early on. Taking into account it's thickness as well as the module thickness and the necessary mount adapter to say RF, EF, M, or PL Mount; you'd be looking at a package that was a few inches thick.

What Jarred mentioned mainly was the sensor found in Komodo was apparently also intended for the module itself.

I personally think Komodo is a wiser way to go, module or not, because it doesn't tie you to a specific model of phone. Even if there was a Hydrogen 2, it would limit potential form factor development to work with that module.

It sounds like the way Hydrogen/Android and eventually IOS interacts with Komodo will be much more ideal.

The mobile game is far more difficult than many of us can imagine, particularly if you're creating a new one from scratch. Cell phones in general at the moment are on 3-6 month cycles with the big dogs landing Spring and Fall typically. Big Android OS updates go to Google's offerings first, Samsung and Qualcomm make stuff that goes in nearly all Android phones and they are the next big dog, Apple is exclusive with IOS. It does suck that their won't be a Hydrogen 2, I can see a lot of angles for it make a notable comeback into the market, but competing against very literally the largest companies on Earth is very hard in this space.


That's off topic from Komodo really. But frankly as somebody who uses cameras for a living as well as goofing off, I'm much happier with a camera that works with mobile phones rather than a camera that requires a mobile phone to work at all.


But to all of those above topics, RED being such a new company overall have been pretty clear rather constantly "that anything can change". Often usually for the better, in this case it's sort of a bandage peel with a wince and moderate decent result in the sense that Hydrogen owners do get a discount on Komodo, which was something never discussed regarding the camera module or anything.

 

[olivier harrault]

I don’t know if I missed something but could you share just a framegrab shot with Komodo ? Jarred ?
I am personally don’t good enough to talk about the specs as I’m not a scientist ^^ what I like the most from Red is this stunning quality that we can have with Red sensors ... this means much to me than all the specs parts. From my point of view, all dsmc2 cameras have their own particularity and what I like the most with the upcoming Komodo is this awesome form factor ! I’d give anything except my mom to use it now ^^
Anyway all those tech comments are really interesting to read as they are full of knowledge from different operators !!

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

The reality of early module prototypes shown which didn't take into account powering the module itself and a battery module was at least mentioned once or twice early on. Taking into account it's thickness as well as the module thickness and the necessary mount adapter to say RF, EF, M, or PL Mount; you'd be looking at a package that was a few inches thick.

I see. So the prototypes evolved into something so big that it no longer made sense for it to be a module.

I personally think Komodo is a wiser way to go, module or not, because it doesn't tie you to a specific model of phone. Even if there was a Hydrogen 2, it would limit potential form factor development to work with that module.

Good point. I agree that for you (and probably for me too) Komodo is better than a module. But for most Hydrogen owners, this is probably not the case.

But to all of those above topics, RED being such a new company overall have been pretty clear rather constantly "that anything can change". Often usually for the better, in this case it's sort of a bandage peel with a wince and moderate decent result in the sense that Hydrogen owners do get a discount on Komodo, which was something never discussed regarding the camera module or anything.

Yeah, sometimes "obsolescence obsolete" and "everything changes" are a bit contradictory. But I agree that the discount offered does soften the blow a bit.

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

I don’t know if I missed something but could you share just a framegrab shot with Komodo ? Jarred ?
I am personally don’t good enough to talk about the specs as I’m not a scientist ^^ what I like the most from Red is this stunning quality that we can have with Red sensors ... this means much to me than all the specs parts. From my point of view, all dsmc2 cameras have their own particularity and what I like the most with the upcoming Komodo is this awesome form factor ! I’d give anything except my mom to use it now ^^
Anyway all those tech comments are really interesting to read as they are full of knowledge from different operators !!

As far as I know, the grab below is the only confirmed Komodo frame, and it's a bit too small and compressed to tell us much.

Jarred can you pls mount a Komodo to someone's forehead?

This photo makes the camera look so much smaller than I actually realized: https://www.instagram.com/p/B4BBD03hPaG/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Is this THE CRADLE tm in this photo? Very much looking forward to seeing all the little accessories and bits and bobs you guys make for this thing. I would love to see a nice top handle for skate video style filming, and looks like you already have the side handles covered.

 

[Jarred Land]

Thanks for your thoughts Phil. I tend to look at things more cynically. I think it's likely that they didn't sell enough Hydrogens to make module development worthwhile (plus they had issues with their ODM). A few months ago we were told that the pro camera development had been moved back to Red. Jim even said that they had "redesigned the package" in reference to the camera module. As more information becomes available about Komodo, it is becoming clear that this is not a redesigned Hydrogen module, it's a separate project they have been working on for ages for a specific purpose. Don't get me wrong, Komodo looks great, and I might take advantage of the discount, but I think the attempt by Red to spin the cancellation of modules as a pivot to a better solution has created a lot of confusion and expectation.

I don't think there was much spinning... I was pretty open and upfront about inheriting the task of linking Hydrogen to Komodo and the first thing I said is that we were not making a module

I think some of the confusion came from Jim's post where he talks about RED camera making Komodo work with Hydrogen and the 2nd sentence where Hydrogen Team was fully engaged in the "in-device" camera program. Those were two very separate programs, he was talking about the phone camera in that 2nd part but I could see how you could read it as being all about Komodo.

And yes.. I was working on Komodo way before the Hydrogen Module was ever a thing. And like we said we redesigned it to accommodate the Hydrogen phone back around the time when Jim made that announcement.

I do understand the confusion. That is one of the reasons why I started this thread with what Komodo isn't .. as that at the time was much easier to do than explaining what it is

 

[Jarred Land]

I'm not sure who's manufacturing the actual Red sensors these days

We use someone else's oven like everyone else does, and we do jump around to different ovens as needed but it is our design.

I know there are conspiracy theories out there and crazy videos that try their best to claim we don't have a sensor team and jump and down screaming that we don't design our own pixels... which is completely false... and disrespectful to our team who have been designing some of the best sensors on the planet for more than a decade.

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

I don't think there was much spinning... I was pretty open and upfront about inheriting the task of linking Hydrogen to Komodo and the first thing I said is that we were not making a module

I think some of the confusion came from Jim's post where he talks about RED camera making Komodo work with Hydrogen and the 2nd sentence where Hydrogen Team was fully engaged in the "in-device" camera program. Those were two very separate programs, he was talking about the phone camera in that 2nd part but I could see how you could read it as being all about Komodo.

And yes.. I was working on Komodo way before the Hydrogen Module was ever a thing. And like we said we redesigned it to accommodate the Hydrogen phone back around the time when Jim made that announcement.

I do understand the confusion. That is one of the reasons why I started this thread with what Komodo isn't .. as that at the time was much easier to do than explaining what it is

Fair enough. I guess "redesigning the package" meant adding Hydrogen compatibility. But I do think calling Komodo "the pro camera for hydrogen" was a bit spinny. I agree you have been totally up front about what Komodo is, and things are becoming clearer. For me personally, I am happy to get a discount on Komodo (if I decide to get it), and I probably would not have purchased an H2 anyway, so it all works out okay. But I do feel bad for all the Hydrogen users for whom Komodo is a bad fit.

I guess it's all moot now anyhow. How about an R3D or full-res still from Komodo to lighten the mood around here?

 

[Jarred Land]

Yeah, sometimes "obsolescence obsolete" and "everything changes" are a bit contradictory. But I agree that the discount offered does soften the blow a bit.

You need to swing big to make a meaningful change/improvement/invention and sometimes those big swings miss. I know it seems like the end of the world to some people, but we have been here before.

REDRAY, The Projector, The Meizler Module, A whole bunch of 3D stuff that you guys never even saw, etc. etc. etc. The 8k VV Dragon Almost suffered the same fate. Some of you remember that... And Gemini too... that almost didn't work out.

I know from the customer side of the fence all this stuff seems easy... like the pain-in-the-ass-guy telling us "o just add a few extra frame rates for me please, how hard could it be" .... but making stuff is hard... specially when you are the first to do it.

 

[Peter Stanley]

This camera is already having a big impact on people and it’s not even finished yet haha. Just let them finish it and enjoy the teasers in the meantime. Exciting times in the digital film world!

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

You need to swing big to make a meaningful change/improvement/invention and sometimes those big swings miss. I know it seems like the end of the world to some people, but we have been here before.

REDRAY, The Projector, The Meizler Module, A whole bunch of 3D stuff that you guys never even saw, etc. etc. etc. The 8k VV Dragon Almost suffered the same fate. Some of you remember that... And Gemini too... that almost didn't work out.

I know from the customer side of the fence all this stuff seems easy... like the pain-in-the-ass-guy telling us "o just add a few extra frame rates for me please, how hard could it be" .... but making stuff is hard... specially when you are the first to do it.

Absolutely. I have no doubt what Red does is incredibly difficult. It's certainly not the end of the world, and of course there are swings and misses along the way, but what irked me the most about the Hydrogen was the lack of communication - there are still people over at h4vuser.net saying Android Pi is coming and asking when Red monitoring will be possible. And who can blame them when nobody from Red has told them otherwise?

More on point - now that the Hydrogen project is over, will you still be integrating it with Komodo via the rear pins, or will it just use the USB like other Android devices?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

We use someone else's oven like everyone else does, and we do jump around to different ovens as needed but it is our design.

I know there are conspiracy theories out there and crazy videos that try their best to claim we don't have a sensor team and jump and down screaming that we don't design our own pixels... which is completely false... and disrespectful to our team who have been designing some of the best sensors on the planet for more than a decade.

I couldn't really care less for the conspiracy theories out there. I think people are generally biased and bad at thinking about stuff; people create narratives in their heads on how things are done and when they find out there are different procedures than they thought in their heads previously(without having any real insight or knowledge into design and manufacture) they invent a new narrative about the company lying earlier in order to justify that they were initially wrong. I'm not really any better myself, but at least see the difference between pure fantasy and fact-based speculation.

Anyway, what exactly is this new sensor? Are there any improvements in areas like DR, noise? How would you rank the sensor compared to the ones we have at the moment?

like the pain-in-the-ass-guy telling us "o just add a few extra frame rates for me please, how hard could it be" .... but making stuff is hard... specially when you are the first to do it.

Ouch :tongue_smilie: Though I'm not really saying "how hard could it be", I rather said that I'm willing to pay extra for a Komodo with slightly higher framerates. You've done crazier stuff before

 

[Christopher bell]

You need to swing big to make a meaningful change/improvement/invention and sometimes those big swings miss. I know it seems like the end of the world to some people, but we have been here before.

REDRAY, The Projector, The Meizler Module, A whole bunch of 3D stuff that you guys never even saw, etc. etc. etc. The 8k VV Dragon Almost suffered the same fate. Some of you remember that...

And Gemini too... that almost didn't work out.

I know from the customer side of the fence all this stuff seems easy... like the pain-in-the-ass-guy telling us "o just add a few extra frame rates for me please, how hard could it be" .... but making stuff is hard... specially when you are the first to do it.

a world without the RED GEMINI LOL

 

[Patrick Tresch]

About rolling shutter and Komodo

That's funny.. because we hear about it on almost every single major production... and that's not a RED thing.. its an everything thing. People just have learned to live with it. Just a few weeks ago the cameras that you are comparing Komodo to were eliminated from a major production because of it. Again....

Komodo exists because our high end customers asked us to solve that. And we did.

That's big big news!!!!!