KOMODO....

[Phil Holland]

I've more or less been trying to push the industry in a direction that the "general recommended Base ISO" is where you have approximate even stops above and below an exposed 18% Gray. This sets the filmmaker ideally up for success and typically is a really good starting point for exposure method/logic within a camera system to help you produce a nice cinematic image. RED, Jarred, and Graeme all have reiterated that sort of notion for the most part. I view this as a starting point to get to know and work from there. Interestingly you might have a stop or two variance in there up or down depending on the manufacturer and what will be described as a "universally pleasing image" in terms of reasonable noise levels at a given capture resolution towards a desired finishing resolution.

RED's been fun because you'll see them recommend ISO 800 moderately universally at this point despite all the different sensor technologies and unique Dual ISO sensors. More or less trying to unify things in my mind. Oddly I see productions rocking Monstro at ISO 1600 at 5K even just to get that flavor of image, and truthfully that's what it's all about. These are tools for you to discover how they best suit your project, like all the cameras out there.

Outside of that we have access to various OLPFs, which are more accurately Color Science Filters now that the Anti-Aliasing aspect of the filter has been move to the sensor's cover glass. These block, reflect, or absorbed the evils found with IR and UV light at different levels. Some basically are more light lossy than others, my general logic is use the Low Light Optimized and Standard around the same ISO rating, cut the ISO in half for the Skin Tone Highlight and you'll be pretty safe. Some sensor's native color temp play better with each OLPF, but this rule of thumb is something that you should certainly keep in mind. i.e. If you like say Helium at ISO 800, with the Standard OLPF, go with ISO 400 with the Skin Tone Highlight OLPF, the Low Light is fairly close to Standard, but maybe give a 1/3rd or 2/3 stop improvement. Then again you might like working at ISO 2000, so build from wherever.

Industry-wise we got into a fuzzy space of the term "Native ISO", which nobody actually wants to know because it's usually measured in linear light and is a number that is very low and not exactly how we use the footage to create a normal looking image, outside of VFX and a few nosey Colorists and DPs that is Certainly reasons to dig deep though for those who need to get in there with various post workflows.

 

[Phil Holland]

Just to expand to that as I'm out at dinner and freestyling whimsically about ISO. There's nothing wrong with working at ISO 250 or whatever if you're aiming for a cleaner image, but just be away that you're putting 18% Gray closer to clipping in terms of counted/measured stops. There's a host of On Screen and In Camera Exposure Tools and I've been publishing my DR data pretty much for every sensor that's dropped. But maybe you want a low con look? Maybe clean or more textured is what you are aiming for? You are effecting the curve in some way to get to whatever look you are after when it comes to a grade and developed look.

My data when it comes to Total Captured Dynamic Range is mostly about measurement and can influence how you rate, but you need to unlock that for yourself. Too much fuzz about a muddy stop and how and where it's used. Even in some of the well respected measurement methods. Especially in the age of finishing for SDR and HDR.

Generally RED is giving you a range of ISO 250-3200 (and man I want that to go to 200 to make my life easier) and you should know based on standard exposure practices surrounding 18% Gray, your image gets noisier the higher your ISO goes. At the same time you are protecting more and more in the highlights. Always a balance, no matter what system. The reason I end up doing so many tests, especially recently, is to figure out what's ideal for a 4K and 8K finish at all capture resolutions. Though this is studio driven, there is zero reason this shouldn't be something each DP does for themselves, and many do.

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

I understand what you are saying, but:
1. as a Helium owner, how would that make you feel?
2. I kinda find it hard to fit all of the high-horsepower electronics into such a small (and hopefully energy efficient) brain...

1. As a Helium owner I am happy as a lark. Any new sensor and/or camera body Red creates will only help me as a filmmaker. New, smaller, powerful, high res cameras at lower cost will mean more profits and more creative opportunities for me. Owning a Helium doesn’t change that. Honestly I am stoked.
2. Komodo has 4K out..that tells me they are cramming a lot of specs we are wanting in that thing.

My biggest concern and biggest question - what are our on board monitoring options? I’m worried this could be a gimbal and/or VR tailored rig. As much as I need a great Red gimbal solution, I’d love this thing to also be able to play as a b-cam.

 

[paulcurtis]

1. As a Helium owner I am happy as a lark. Any new sensor and/or camera body Red creates will only help me as a filmmaker. New, smaller, powerful, high res cameras at lower cost will mean more profits and more creative opportunities for me. Owning a Helium doesn’t change that. Honestly I am stoked.
2. Komodo has 4K out..that tells me they are cramming a lot of specs we are wanting in that thing.

My biggest concern and biggest question - what are our on board monitoring options? I’m worried this could be a gimbal and/or VR tailored rig. As much as I need a great Red gimbal solution, I’d love this thing to also be able to play as a b-cam.

+1 things move on. We've had our Epic Ws for a few years now right?

I would imagine that it is just a brain - whether there is a pogo style connector i have no idea but i'd doubt it. The whole linking to a hydrogen to me implies remote control over wifi/bluetooth rather than menus on the brain - that would save weight and space. So i'd bet there is no *onboard* monitoring at all. You have an 4K SDI out - so you could connect to that.

That would be a big differentiator with an Epic body - i have an EVF and a full shooting rig that i doubt you'd be able to add to this.

I'm curious whether this could replace my ageing Sony a7sII before the III comes out... To me that's my kind of B cam, a multi use stills/B cam. I suspect the III of the sony will have some form of RAW movie recording.

cheers
Paul

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

1. As a Helium owner I am happy as a lark. Any new sensor and/or camera body Red creates will only help me as a filmmaker. New, smaller, powerful, high res cameras at lower cost will mean more profits and more creative opportunities for me. Owning a Helium doesn’t change that. Honestly I am stoked.
2. Komodo has 4K out..that tells me they are cramming a lot of specs we are wanting in that thing.

My biggest concern and biggest question - what are our on board monitoring options? I’m worried this could be a gimbal and/or VR tailored rig. As much as I need a great Red gimbal solution, I’d love this thing to also be able to play as a b-cam.

Hey you're making a point here : the fact that Hydrogen phones are so much into the discussions might be a hint at a product tailored for VR. I'm not saying it will be a VR camera (because does not seem like it) BUT that it may comes with some rigging options to build a V.R capture solution AND/OR 3D easily that you can monitor in real time on Hydrogen phobes without the need of glasses.

Like you, I want it to be a B-cam or even A-cam for low budget filmmakers and students.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Mid grey has rarely been in the center of the exposure range. Due to physics I suppose.

 

[David Rasberry]

Mid grey has rarely been in the center of the exposure range. Due to physics I suppose.

The linear response of the sensor itself is the hard physics, x photons in = X voltage out. Gain structure, noise reduction, gamma correction, log curves applied to the linear voltage signal modify distribution of values and affect the placement of middle gray exposures for the photographer, but they don't change the sensor's native voltage response in most cases. They may make more of the sensor's native DR usable at the low end. Ulitmately exposure and placement of middle gray are a creative choice, especially with raw formats. Where the linear DR of the sensor exceeds the DR of common gamma corrected display formats like REC709, various log curves can compress the dynamic range to fit, but not without consequences.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I think the 6K Dragon sensor size was only a problem when it came out - at the time the industry was entirely focused on S35.

But since then...much has changed.

Full Frame sensors are all the rage now, and even Arri embraced S35+ years ago with Open Gate.

If the Komodo has a 6K 30mm wide sensor, that is only a GOOD thing.

If it's a 6K 25mm wide sensor (Super 35), that's fine too.

Anything smaller will feel less disruptive, especially for the cost (10K shooting package seems safe).

Exactly. The reason I believe that it's full-frame has to do with how Canon R is full-frame at only $2100, while you could even get a Canon RP for $1400. It IS possible to manufacture a full-frame sensor while keeping costs down and the RF mount development had to do with full-frame mirrorless, so it makes sense. However, it could be s35mm, because if everyone goes full-frame, there will be a lot of lenses for that sensor type and it will beat the Blackmagic pocket 6K by sensor size alone.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

Exactly. The reason I believe that it's full-frame has to do with how Canon R is full-frame at only $2100, while you could even get a Canon RP for $1400. It IS possible to manufacture a full-frame sensor while keeping costs down and the RF mount development had to do with full-frame mirrorless, so it makes sense. However, it could be s35mm, because if everyone goes full-frame, there will be a lot of lenses for that sensor type and it will beat the Blackmagic pocket 6K by sensor size alone.

I'm not sure I'm correct BUT I think neither Canon R or RP uses the full frame for video and instead use a crop factor more or less similar to S35.

 

[Curren Sheldon]

Exactly. The reason I believe that it's full-frame has to do with how Canon R is full-frame at only $2100, while you could even get a Canon RP for $1400. It IS possible to manufacture a full-frame sensor while keeping costs down and the RF mount development had to do with full-frame mirrorless, so it makes sense. However, it could be s35mm, because if everyone goes full-frame, there will be a lot of lenses for that sensor type and it will beat the Blackmagic pocket 6K by sensor size alone.

Yea I'm really hoping that this is full-frame. The main reason being for me is that the 4K would then be close to Super35 FOV. And 4K + RedCode may be the best combo available right now for great image quality in a relatively small file size. I do a lot of doc work, which results in some verrrryy long takes. ProRes 422 files in 4K are way too large for my needs, so using RedCode Raw or Black Magic Raw is the direction I'm leaning right now. Waiting for Komodo to drop as I'd much rather have the RF Mount than EF Mount. We'll see what happens.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Exactly. The reason I believe that it's full-frame has to do with how Canon R is full-frame at only $2100, while you could even get a Canon RP for $1400. It IS possible to manufacture a full-frame sensor while keeping costs down and the RF mount development had to do with full-frame mirrorless, so it makes sense. However, it could be s35mm, because if everyone goes full-frame, there will be a lot of lenses for that sensor type and it will beat the Blackmagic pocket 6K by sensor size alone.

Full frame sounds optimistic.

Super35+ alone would be disruptive.

We'll see.

 

[Jon Dishler]

Komodo is a very big lizard, and the other large sensor camera is Monstro... so there is that bit of scientific logic.

 

[Uday Bhaskar Karra]

I have an EOS R and comparing it with the initial Komodo pic shared... It looks like a S35mm or a bit larger but not FF for sure.


DSMC3 Predictions--->

1. Does anyone of you think RED would release a DSMC3 Camera to compete with Alexa65?
i.e. Make a 12K variant of Monstro Sensor and in Ranger body style... Sell it only to Rental houses.

2. 6K Variant of Monstro - S35 (Since, there were a lot of requests for 6K Sensor).

3. Replace current 8K Monstro with 8K version of Gemini slightly larger than VV (Low light beast).

:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

 

[Nick Morrison]

I have an EOS R and comparing it with the initial Komodo pic shared... It looks like a S35mm or a bit larger but not FF for sure.


DSMC3 Predictions--->

1. Does anyone of you think RED would release a DSMC3 Camera to compete with Alexa65?
i.e. Make a 12K variant of Monstro Sensor and in Ranger body style... Sell it only to Rental houses.

2. 6K Variant of Monstro - S35 (Since, there were a lot of requests for 6K Sensor).

3. Replace current 8K Monstro with 8K version of Gemini slightly larger than VV (Low light beast).

:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

I think they will release an 8K Gemini, which will be 48mm across (vs Monstro 41mm, LF 38mm, and Vista 36mm)

 

[Phil Holland]

RF 1.2s vs. Otus. @Philhollland

Heh. When those 1.2 primes are out I'll be the first one testing them for sure. I'm really excited by the new glass R&D Canon's been doing. The 28-70 f/2 is alarmingly good for instance.

Shorter flange depths allow for a whole bunch of fun things on the optical level.

- Lenses can be smaller
- Lenses can have faster apertures in typical ideal form factors
- Lens designs can "more efficiently aim light" at the sensor, increasing edge performance and similar
- For manufacturers, it's actually cheaper to make lenses for shorter flange depths slightly

All that said, I'll be certainly be using EF and PL glass on Komodo RF via adapter and a bunch of other glass too. Almost any still lens I could adapter to EF I have done or have had modified/converted to PL. This allows for things like behind the lens ND and all that jazz, but mainly I'm invested in those lenses because of their look. My cinema PL glass is just exactly that.

Where RF shows some of the bigger strengths though, is you'll be able to have native RF mount lenses or other shorter flange mounts adapted glass in a small and tidy package.

Lots of exciting options here and more RF glass is coming rapidly between now and October of next year. And if I was a guessing man, a few of the L-Mount options are also going to end up on RF to gain sales.

DSMC3 Predictions--->

Sell it only to Rental houses.

Most of that is all speculation, but the one thing we've seen thus far is RED making custom cameras for filmmakers and rental houses based around existing sensor technology. If RED made a dedicated and unique sensor that wasn't available to the general user base, I think that would be frowned down upon and honestly less profitable for them even if the camera was significantly more expensive.

So yes to custom bodies in my book, no to unobtainium. I saw Avater, I know how that goes

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I'm not sure I'm correct BUT I think neither Canon R or RP uses the full frame for video and instead use a crop factor more or less similar to S35.

Nope, they only use crop in 4K mode, but downscaling to 1080p it uses the entire full frame. Add $4000 for a better processor and R3D handling and the engineering and 6K should be possible.

Yea I'm really hoping that this is full-frame. The main reason being for me is that the 4K would then be close to Super35 FOV. And 4K + RedCode may be the best combo available right now for great image quality in a relatively small file size. I do a lot of doc work, which results in some verrrryy long takes. ProRes 422 files in 4K are way too large for my needs, so using RedCode Raw or Black Magic Raw is the direction I'm leaning right now. Waiting for Komodo to drop as I'd much rather have the RF Mount than EF Mount. We'll see what happens.

I would still shoot 6K if I were you. The whole idea is super sampling for 4K, otherwise you miss out on that shooting native 4K. I'm glad it's 6K at least, 4K R3D doesn't really look that good to be frank.

Full frame sounds optimistic.

Super35+ alone would be disruptive.

We'll see.

At a $6000 when a Canon R cost $2100, I'm not so sure it will be disruptive, it's just the natural progression of camera tech. Previously everything was about 4K, now everyone's doing 4K. Now things are about full-frame and everyone is about to go into that game, which means it creeps down to lower priced models.
Remember, Jarred only said that this isn't a replacement for their DSMC2 or that it is DSMC3, which means, it's not about being a new camera in that way. It doesn't mean this is a new type of camera existing on its own.

But yeah, I've had my high expectations before, just look at how the Hydrogen went. So I think it will probably just be s35mm, but that is still not bad if they deliver 6K with R3D in a small stable form factor.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I have an EOS R and comparing it with the initial Komodo pic shared... It looks like a S35mm or a bit larger but not FF for sure.


DSMC3 Predictions--->

1. Does anyone of you think RED would release a DSMC3 Camera to compete with Alexa65?
i.e. Make a 12K variant of Monstro Sensor and in Ranger body style... Sell it only to Rental houses.

2. 6K Variant of Monstro - S35 (Since, there were a lot of requests for 6K Sensor).

3. Replace current 8K Monstro with 8K version of Gemini slightly larger than VV (Low light beast).

:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

1. A 65mm sensor would generate too much yield in manufacture to be a viable camera sold to everyone. I think it would be much better to exist as the Ranger camera does, a special beast only for rental.

2. A 6K version of Monstro would be pretty much the same as a 6K Dragon. Would be more economical finding a used 6K MG

3. A FF Gemini would be nice, but it would be an odd number, under 7K or something since the pixel density can't be changed without making an entirely new sensor.



But since Red usually do odd things like the 6K Dragon size, I would actually prefer having a 6K Gemini sensor in this camera. It's not full frame, it's not s35, but somewhere in the middle and have great low light capabilities with Canons RF lenses.

 

[Sean Lovelace]

RED made some kind of deal about licensing patents to Atomos not so long ago.

Wouldn't be surprised if:

- Atomos partnership enables control over the brain via some kind of SDI talkback
- Hydrogen being an alternative control interface
- slightly larger than S35 Sensor (size about that of Gemini)

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

RED made some kind of deal about licensing patents to Atomos not so long ago.

Wouldn't be surprised if:

- Atomos partnership enables control over the brain via some kind of SDI talkback
- Hydrogen being an alternative control interface
- slightly larger than S35 Sensor (size about that of Gemini)

I was just wondering about the ATOMOS partnership. That would be great to be able to use the Shinobi instead of a RED Monitor touch screen for work in the outdoors.

 

[Andrew R Lewis]

Imagine Komodo with a DSMC2 EVF. I often use my Helium for stills with the EVF but even stripped down it gets heavy and isn’t exactly small. Komodo size for stills would be a dream. Got me really thinking about the pixel pitch in this thing and MP’s in this 6k sensor.