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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Komodo 2 coming soon

Mendes Nabil said:
Call it a lack of 3d pop, a thin image than has no weight to it, flat or whatever, if the team could focus their effort on making it "Cinematic", more filmic and organic, something that can compete with Arri or Venice in terms of pure image quality, in such a tiny box with global shutter, that could be very special.
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I think you're probably going to find some disagreement with your basic premise here.

The term "cinematic" is pretty vague, as are related ones like organic, filmic, etc. But I think that most of us here who are interested in certain traditional feature film looks and are happy with Komodo have spent time experimenting with things like lenses and filtration and lighting in pre-production and the many many color tools available in post.
 
Jon Pais said:
He did no such thing.
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Uh… yes he did.

I’m not wasting time digging through livestreams to find it for you.

I gain nothing by lying. Why are you like this, Jon? Who hurt you?
 
Ryan Chernin said:
Uh… yes he did.

I’m not wasting time digging through livestreams to find it for you.

I gain nothing by lying. Why are you like this, Jon? Who hurt you?
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Setting aside the question of tone, I think Jon is recalling that there was a mistaken report of Komodo 2/XL earlier. Check this thread:
https://www.reduser.net/forum/red-c...ed-hinted-at-komodo-2-in-december-predictions

Also, of course, there's pretty much nothing to go on in this thread on a new Komodo either.
 
Ryan Chernin said:
Uh… yes he did.

I’m not wasting time digging through livestreams to find it for you.

I gain nothing by lying. Why are you like this, Jon? Who hurt you?
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If i remember correctly, he said it probably wouldn't be in 2023.
 
Ryan Chernin said:
Uh… yes he did.

I’m not wasting time digging through livestreams to find it for you.

I gain nothing by lying. Why are you like this, Jon? Who hurt you?
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It’s perfectly understandable that you’d be confused. When asked when we can expect an electronic ND mount for the regular V-Raptor, Jarred hastily adds “and the Komodo… I already broke that.” Further on, he elaborates, “For me, the normal Raptor or Komodo with that mount is going to be killer.” When asked “What’s in the pipeline for future smaller format REDs? Komodo Mark II, etc.” Jarred answers “You know I can’t talk about that.” In answer to the question, “What’s the time frame on the VND?” Jarred said, “We’re not going to screw over the Raptor/Komodo mount users just to make the XLs.” Balkum: “When is the [V-Raptor] s35 XL coming out?” “ Jarred: ”Obviously, there will be a s35 XL.” So, an electronic ND mount, check. A new build for the current Komodo (already released), check. A s35 V-Raptor XL, check. A Komodo XL, zero confirmation on Balkum’s live stream a few months back as you claim there was. In fact, Jarred made it crystal clear that he was not at liberty to discuss a possible successor to the Komodo (although he has talked about a monochrome Komodo).
 
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Jon Pais said:
(although he has talked about a monochrome Komodo).
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I can understand the monochrome being a consideration but after seeing what could be done with the EVA1 and its unique IR switch, I wonder why RED never made an IR infrared model.
 
Zack Birlew said:
I can understand the monochrome being a consideration but after seeing what could be done with the EVA1 and its unique IR switch, I wonder why RED never made an IR infrared model.
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Just five months ago, Jarred said he was working on an IR XL.

Land also elaborated on developing a monochrome version of the Raptor XL: “We were in the middle of making a couple of monochromes, but we got a special request from a special customer for IR (Infra-Red) XL. So we’re making those first…we’re making a few of them. You can do some really cool stuff with those cameras. So we’ll make a few of those and hopefully get to monochrome”.

source: https://ymcinema.com/2022/08/24/red-...xl-ir-and-s35/
 
Zack Birlew said:
monochrome & IR switch
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Part of the reason I held onto my Monstros is I have them fully Full Spectrum, IR, and UV capable and they have been rented last year to do exactly that a few times. This is one of the extreme values of having user interchangeable CSFs, but it's not clear if that's the ideal way to make new bodies with that feature. But it is one I miss in DSMC3!

Monochrome holds the potential of firstly removing the CFA and you are getting pure luminance information. Even with the Low Pass Filter still installed that will increase both detail/resolution as well as light sensitivity. I would say for Raptor, based on what I can extrapolate from it's color response and filtration, probably about 2+ stops more sensitive in practice. No color channel noise to deal with. Much like working with B&W Film, you will want to use color filters to tune your image.

I know a very small handful of filmmakers who are very dedicated to having a B&W RED and it's awesome they still produce tools like this for those who want it.

I will say, I do generally prefer to produce Monochromatic work via RGB information as you can do a great deal of that color filtration after the fact. But it's sort of a different technique to get to similar result really.
 
Jon Pais said:
Just five months ago, Jarred said he was working on an IR XL.

Land also elaborated on developing a monochrome version of the Raptor XL: “We were in the middle of making a couple of monochromes, but we got a special request from a special customer for IR (Infra-Red) XL. So we’re making those first…we’re making a few of them. You can do some really cool stuff with those cameras. So we’ll make a few of those and hopefully get to monochrome”.

source: https://ymcinema.com/2022/08/24/red-...xl-ir-and-s35/
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Oooh! I didn't hear about that! Very interesting! I've always liked the idea of IR for video but it was always kind of a very special kind of hassle and an even more special use case scenario. So far, picking up a used EVA1 seemed like the best bet for me but an IR-RED could be even better.
 
Phil Holland said:
I'll write an unusual book/web-post on this topic at some point. But the first thing people need to know is there's a difference between RED's IPP2 Color Science Output Transforms to say Rec.709 and going straight to Rec.709.

Graeme's color science and applied look there is very, very good rather than the straight transform.

I loathe self promoting, but you really should checkout what color related work I've been up to and it tackles essentially what you're on about for years now.
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Hi Phil, first let me say thank you so much for all your incredible contributions to the RED community through your posts, tools on your website and equipment testing.

Can you please elaborate on your statement: “But the first thing people need to know is there's a difference between RED's IPP2 Color Science Output Transforms to say Rec.709 and going straight to Rec.709.

Graeme's color science and applied look there is very, very good rather than the straight transform.”

This totally intrigued me and I would love to learn more!
 
Andrew Dease said:
Um, YES, he did. And I have linked the timestamp to it many times wont do it again. He literally says "how did you know" and strats looking around like it might be in the shot.
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Actually, what Jarred said in the video is that he can’t talk about that. He confirmd nothing, nada, zilch. “More from the Komodo in the future” is not a definitive statement about an XL, therefore not a confirmation.
 
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Jon Pais said:
That video is a year old and Jarred confirms nothing.
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I agree! I can see why people think thats confirmation but honestly its just a broad statement. Anyone can say red will release a new camera, well yeah but who knows when and what.

There is another video and they are talking about firmware and Jarred said the new one will come out in December, people thought it was a camera but it was the firmware he was talking about.
 
Jonathan Keane said:
I agree! I can see why people think thats confirmation but honestly its just a broad statement. Anyone can say red will release a new camera, well yeah but who knows when and what.

There is another video and they are talking about firmware and Jarred said the new one will come out in December, people thought it was a camera but it was the firmware he was talking about.
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Exactly.
 
Chris Ortenburger said:
Would like to know in more detail what this means, too.
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rec. 709 is a technical specification, red 709 transforms deviates from the technical spec in favor of some more pleasing colors, it’s also less saturated, particularly in brighter colors and has options of changing the tone curve. Pretty sure this what Phil was getting at.

Part of the reason so many people think they like arri, when they say it has nice color science or skin tones, they think that look is tied to the camera itself, but majority of that look comes from arri’s 709 output transform, and just like Red, their transform also isn’t a straight 709 transform.
 
Leonardo Newman said:
rec. 709 is a technical specification, red 709 transforms deviates from the technical spec in favor of some more pleasing colors, it’s also less saturated, particularly in brighter colors and has options of changing the tone curve. Pretty sure this what Phil was getting at.

Part of the reason so many people think they like arri, when they say it has nice color science or skin tones, they think that look is tied to the camera itself, but majority of that look comes from arri’s 709 output transform, and just like Red, their transform also isn’t a straight 709 transform.
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This is correct and something I need to find time to really, really deeply dive into as a topic as it's pretty heavy to cover. And even more exciting is there's lots of ways to brew your stew when it comes to a mere Output Transform, ODT, or whatever people describe a "R709 LUT" as. And I'll even go harder and say there's a lot of LUTs out there that are truly awful both to color and dynamic range.

But yes, Graeme's take on color science is extremely pleasing. In particular with the Medium Contrast Curve and Soft Highlight Roll-Off, which has also become the default Rec.709 output for the camera both in the SDK and software. That features a well crafted BT.1886 curve and translates well to HDR with the same settings, though for HDR I always have to tweak things, but that's more of how HDR works rather than the logic behind the curve and color.

He honestly should get a lot more credit for how well thought out IPP2 is from a color and tone perspective.

With RED you have that take on various color spaces as well as straight transforms, which you can use to make whatever you want, but straight away often create undesirable results. This is sort of true for a lot of cameras out there that have wider dynamic range which has a big impact on higher gamut colors and just color in general.

A small example. I have one amazing shot of a bright red car that I have captured with various cameras in a consistent way. For those that can even expose for the hot shiny red color, the next question is how to display it "naturally". A straight transform with a standard curve clips the heck out of it. A good curve with a straight transform also does the same. There's where crafting gamut limiting comes into play. Along with some very subtle color tweak's Graeme's created something that works for a very wide range of scenarios.

The nuance I get up to when making my own transforms or building on his work is primarily what happens across the whole range or particularly what happens with higher gamut colors.

In terms of ARRI's output stuff, similar though they expressively do more weird things across the tonal range and with AWG/LogC4 they strayed a bit off the film path as they are also dealing with a lot of color. Some have shown some wild exports already featuring colorful highlights, similarly I have either created my own stuff or built on their own work to "improve things" if or as needed.

Deep topic. Deeper when you are also talking about mastering, but that's a tale for another day. Be wary of YouTube color tutorials. A great deal of them are making your footage look awful. not all, but a great deal. This compounded by various color workflows actually still used industry wide is also something I should crack into a discussion on.
 
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