Just Hit Delete

[Hrvoje Simic]

Concept idea - (via appropriate menu setting) Allow the user to change the function of the "smart side" REC button to become UNREC or OVERREC?

Note there are three keys here - a "REC" and two "User" keys. Anyone want to take a stab at how to use them in this situation?

I wouldn't recommend changing the function of the most important button.
In attention-demanding or no-second-chance situations this could be very risky.

The most fool-proof solution in my opinion would be that after recording session is over -

one user key becomes DELETE
and the other CONFIRM

or

one user key becomes DELETE +one more press to CONFIRM
and the other user key would be left for "next scene", "next take" or what ever could be useful or firmware upgraded later

 

[Emmanuel Cambier]

Just one question.

What happens if, for some unlikely reason, the operator forguet to push the STOP button…?
And it's a remote location and this is the golden hour, and tomorrow the weather changes drastically…
And of course this is the last drive available and there is still many things to shoot that day…
If ther is no way to erase, at least the last shot, this all seems like a bad bad fix you're in.

Yours Emmanuel

 

[tj williams]

Which Buttons?

Which Buttons?

Stuart: Quote: Concept idea - (via appropriate menu setting) Allow the user to change the function of the "smart side" REC button to become UNREC or OVERREC?
Note there are three keys here - a "REC" and two "User" keys. Anyone want to take a stab at how to use them in this situation?
There are also four keys on the side of the viewfinder -

First I think the step of engaging the overrecording function should be a menu option. overrecording shoult not be possible unless you have engaged it. Powering the camera down should again disengage it. Once it is engaged in the menu however, it should be easily available. Since the operator has chosen to have it available.

I think it should involves three steps:
1. decide to overrecord
2. Confirm the decision.
3. Over-record

Perhaps on the RED any record button is depressed once to start recording and any record button once to stop recording. usually this is how electronic cameras work in any case a momentary switch is closed. This is different in film cameras where often the circuit is held closed while running.

In that case double clicking the start button would bring up a flag in the center of the viewfinder and lcd OVER-RECORDING ENGAGED

Then in would be necessary to double click the same start button again to confirm the desire to over-record after that the next start would overrecord the last take.

If you changed your mind in the meantime use of some secondary button would remove over-record. perhaps pressing the other two action buttons down together?

You wouldn't want to use the same button double clicked again as it could accidently start overrecording on the first of the double clicks.

 

[Zach Hilton]

Just one question.

What happens if, for some unlikely reason, the operator forguet to push the STOP button…?
And it's a remote location and this is the golden hour, and tomorrow the weather changes drastically…
And of course this is the last drive available and there is still many things to shoot that day…
If ther is no way to erase, at least the last shot, this all seems like a bad bad fix you're in.

Yours Emmanuel

Get a different DP for starters. Of course all of this stuff is a learning process. I for one am against a delete last take button or any thing of the sort. A lot of the scenarios that are cooked up in this particular thread seem sort of obscure. If money isn't an issue, then just buy a RED Flash drive and mark it as the emergency never to be used unless it has to be sort of thing, then when you're in that golden hour in a remote location, or need to shoot right then and there, you can. Of course that is a more expensive fix then just deleting the last take. Anyway, my 2 cents.

 

[Jared VanLeuven]

As obscure as the need for such a feature may rightly be, I am for having the choice made available if it is not too difficult to incorporate in the camera's software. Maximum flexibility.

 

[tj williams]

The combination of many unlikely reasons is likely. This is clear not obscure.

 

[shaftbond]

i don't plan on ever using this feature. i can't count how many times i had a shot marked as no good, only to find something (a shorter version of it before the boom dipped, better audio, etc) that was usable in the final cut.

that being said, i respect everyone's freedom to delete on set if that's what they want to do. and to reiterate:

-can only be activated through the menu
-a button combo (ie: the "smart side" record and a user key simultaneously to put it into "set" mode to OVERREC. have the viewfinder indicate it is in OVERREC mode. then press the record button again to activate it.) would be easier than double clicking.
-have it automatically kick back to normal RECORD mode after the OVERREC has been stopped (and of course when the camera has been powered off)

as far as naming clips on set (being able to enter the Scene and Shot Number and have the camera automatically count the takes would be useful), editing with 27Bt3 (Scene 27 Shot B take 3) would be quicker than renaming in post.

and flagging good/bad clips is nice, not too high on my priority list (i'll have a script supervisor on set)

 

[Poi Boy]

I prefer the simple route and I never erase a clip during a shoot...you are just asking for trouble. Carry more media, does't get simpler or more elegant than that.
Aloha
-A

 

[Owen]

I'm with the camp who believes that even a clip that seems useless on set can save you in post, however I've also been in that "MUST HAVE 30 SECONDS MORE!" situation of having to delete a clip from P2.

That said, I would prefer if clips can only be deleted ONE at a time. The HVX, in my opinion, does a poor job of safe clip deletion. You can have multiple clips selected and not even realize it because it merely higlights a little box around each clip. It's surprisingly easy to accidentally select multiple clips, then go to DELETE thinking you're only getting rid of one clip. The HVX does warn you with "Delete 5 clips?" but at this point you're on the last step of deletion, and I know I've quickly hit yes just as I realized multiple clips were selected. Not good. That's a learning curve I could have lived without!

 

[tj williams]

Owen
A totally great point. Deletion should be a sub-menu item. and totally clear with a confirm command needed. I think the confirm command should be on a different button altogether so it's near impossible to do by accident.

The last time I saw a half a mag roll off the asst. did it not the Dp. Anyhoo it would as likely be the operator, unless the Dp is also the operator.

 

[Daniel Reichenbach]

These are all the kind of options that up the R&D and costs of HD ENG/EFP cameras. RED was set out to be a digital cinema camera that was then decided to be a little eNG/EFP friendly as well.

Personally I hope RED spends no time on these kind of features at all. Keep the camera simple. For those that use the camera for eng/efp just carry a lot of flash memory. in a short amount of time the cost of re-using will off set and it will be a lot cheaper then tape.

A bunch of different menu options add cost and I don't see where they are needed.

Right Finner, I want' a digital camera obscura: a box, a hole, a light sensitive something, mean's a body, a lens, a sensor with lot of resolution, not to much gimmick at all. We can ad them later on, when the principal target of the camera is reeched: ready until spring.

 

[Steven Parker]

I'm with the camp who believes that even a clip that seems useless on set can save you in post, however I've also been in that "MUST HAVE 30 SECONDS MORE!" situation of having to delete a clip from P2.

Exactly, and tho more media seems to me the simplest solution, the OPTION of deleting a clip is paramount. I've rolled an F900 for twenty seconds on an actress going "oh, wait, my earring..." before I finally cut the roll. Starts to add up after a while, figuring digitizing... or RedCine rendering... DVD outtakes notwithstanding:shifty:

 

[tj williams]

Hey Finner:

Maybe we should hand crank like the Kinetta proposed?

Here are some other ways for the RED Crew to simplify:
1. get rid of all time code, we can put it in later in post.
2. Eliminate all the Cine software, sell it seperately later.
3. eliminate all outputs except HD SDI and let us all buy the converters we need. or break down and buy HD SDI monitors as this will not affect the base price of the camera.
4. get rid of the downconvert to HD RGB as it is not necessary for digital cinema.
5. Don't support any aftermarket lens manipulation of NIkon AF Lenses. or for that matter any non cinema lenses as they are not professional.

Of Course all this is a little toung -n -cheeky.... This is after all an electronic camera really a computer, driven by software.

I'll warrant that any of the above take much more programming time than a simple elegant delete function. It's hardly imaginable today to have a computer type product without delete or undo functions. I believe it is even possible to do a redo function...

 

[Finner]

Hey Finner:

Maybe we should hand crank like the Kinetta proposed?

Here are some other ways for the RED Crew to simplify:
1. get rid of all time code, we can put it in later in post.
2. Eliminate all the Cine software, sell it seperately later.
3. eliminate all outputs except HD SDI and let us all buy the converters we need. or break down and buy HD SDI monitors as this will not affect the base price of the camera.
4. get rid of the downconvert to HD RGB as it is not necessary for digital cinema.
5. Don't support any aftermarket lens manipulation of NIkon AF Lenses. or for that matter any non cinema lenses as they are not professional.

Now your starting to get it TJ:usd: :usd:

 

[Poi Boy]

buy more cards/hard drives/tape/whatever
-A

 

[tj williams]

Yes Finner n PoiBoi
We need less features and more parts to buy????

Strangely I'm worried that you may be taking me seriously even a a tiny bit here???

 

[Rodrigo Lizana]

Extra mag

Extra mag

3- IMO, being able to delete clips in the field is pretty dangerous and makes the camera trickier to operate.

Second that. I´ve heard the story of a 2nd. camera men, who being so tired at the end of a long day, reloaded an exposed film back into the magazine. just imagine what a tired man can do with a couple buttons !.

The extra mag is the way to go.

Best regards

 

[tj williams]

I once had an asst. label the mag containing daylight low speed film as tungsten high speed. I have seen a sunset go away as an asst. tried to fit a 65 perf loop into a 54perf space. I have helped try n stop a dropped Panavision G2, (my back hurt for a week) Certainly there are a lot of ways to screw up. We can all sit at the bar at NAB and tell these stories. The list of all possible screwups must be longer than this forum....and some of them are pretty funny in retrospect.

Back to being serious:
Software feature sets are in all probability, not gonna engender extra cost to the camera. RED Team, already has a bunch of media management tools.
It appears for instance, that one can record only chosen parts of the magazine fm RAW to the output file form. A delete function can probably be installed pretty cheaply by RED. I also hope they keep the 17.5 price point! If it is gonna cost more, than 17.5 to put in DELETE they shouldn't do it.

I think the best solution is first: it"s not just: "bump a button" on the side of the camera. but in the menus. Those who want to use DELETE, may

For those who don't want to use DELETE, they should be able to disable it. This way we can have our cake or throw it out. no matter how tired we are.

 

[Poi Boy]

TJ, dude..you are relentless !
Aloha
-A

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I took this quote from "Viewfinder design " thread

...... The guys I know in my age/experience bracket who fit the stereotype listed above are all about to die, retire, or be out-competed on the job – and a lot of them are in denial of that fact. I grew up professionally in “old school” workflows and technology. I respect all that and learned from all that – but never got to the professional point where I felt I had all the answers, and refused to learn more and evolve with the industry.

In the motion media industry of this century we either evolve or by our lack of evolution we program ourselves for professional extinction. The industry of the present and future is one of increased technology – and that trend won’t change or be reversed. RED One won’t immediately revolutionize the professional motion media industry workflow – because of the human nature impulse to resist change, resistance to having to re-learn workflows, ego, pride, legacy investments, and a number of other reasons. But RED One, and other camera systems like it, will inevitably succeed in progressively over time transforming and evolving the motion media industry.

I remember the situations where one shot was repeated up to thirty times due to at least twenty diferent factors. When the time came to review and edit the footage, one of the thing I was cursing was that damn tape which didn't allow better media manipulation on the set.
I remember imagining the day when non linear digital media (be it memory card, HDD or SSD) will save me hours and hours of my life.
This is the only part of this job I don't enjoy.

For the ones that don't realize or don't care about the importance of any clip management on the set - not only it could save time AND money, but you could also be more creative in editing when your brain is not fried with shots repeated dosens of times.
That is exactly how brainwashing works btw, so there's a food for thought.

People who are strictly camera operators couldn't care less about the guy reviewing the footage, but the point of this camera's price IS to make it available to smaller production houses, and by that to the all-around players.
Even in the case of larger movie productions, the amount of time saved simply by marking the shots with 1, 2, or 3 category ("good", "maybe" and "junk"), could save hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars.

Simple clip marking, which would be perceived quickly by different colours in the media library could be the easiest and most practical solution, if adding the delete option is too much time and cost consuming at this point.

That way, you could quickly free the media space, rearrrange the libraries, speed up production time AND save money.

Not one strong argument, but 4.

People are talking about editing 4k today, although there's no complete 4k workflow yet, and usable 4k screens don't even exist.
People talk about carrying around 50 hours of 4k footage in portable, lightweight, durable, cost effective, easy to manipulate media.
Ookay.
Sometimes we look so far ahead that we don't see the importance of something that is right in front of our nose right now.

Having an advanced media aquisition tool without using the management ability benefits of that type of media,
makes no sense to me, especially if this features could be implemented rather easily.

And yeah,
who needs bloopers in 4k ?