Just Hit Delete

[HD Hildebrand]

Perhaps just a "delete last take" only. This way you won't mix it up with some other take and you can keep rolling without fear of fragmentation.

 

[Jared VanLeuven]

Perhaps just a "delete last take" only. This way you won't mix it up with some other take and you can keep rolling without fear of fragmentation.

That would be very useful, got my vote!

 

[Finner]

Hi Finner

Ok so you live in LA and make your whole living shooting indy features and you never shoot ENG style. I'm out here in the hinterlands and my living is a very mixed bag of shooting. I wish I got to shoot more feature stuff, but thus it goes. Consider a couple of things here:

1. Other cameras which output HD are used for television production predominantly eng style as a far more common use. If the RED sells into this market there will be more reds by a huge difference, thus more acceptance, better backup rental availability, more accessories in rental houses, and the possibility of better pricing on accessories and software because of volume. All of which benefits you.

2. How many time have you heard "action" on a movie set and the dolly grip bumped the camera, or the focus shifted to the wrong person, or the talent started before you thought he was going to and marched out of composition. If you could erase those immediately and without delay they will never show up in dailies!

I am currently shooting up in Canada not LA.

I started out in this bussiness as a TV reporter, became an ENG shooter and still do EFP work from time to time.

I rarely work on indy films mainly A level features.

You would be suprisied how many times the shot that you thought was crap in the field and want to erase has a piece of gold in it that fits perfect in the edit. (Never erase something already shot until the edit process).

When I worked as an ENG guy I simply carried extra tapes, its not that hard. I come from the same background as you and know the deal. Before lately you recorded to a tape and unless you wanted to take big big chances you did not rewind and try and record over little pieces here and there (I never did). It is so much easier to plan ahead bring what you need for memory and shoot. I truely believe that sony and a lot of other companys are spending a ton of money to bring convienient but extremely expensive features that we really hardly need. This is why RED is smart. They have trimmed the BS and given us a camera that has the features that are really needed and put their focus on a obtaining a great image.

Simply bring and buy extra memory. It's small and the cost in the end after useing it many times is very cheap.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Eyes on the prize

Eyes on the prize

I have to agree with Finner. Even using 4GB P2 cards I rarely delete a take in the field. I believe it is better to keep your concentration on the next take rather than trying to decide if you really want to risk dumping the last one.

 

[Steve Gibby]

RED was set out to be a digital cinema camera that was then decided to be a little eNG/EFP friendly as well.

Hey Finner,

The EFP/ENG-style capabilities of RED One were not just an afterthought or later add-on concept. RED One was termed a digital cinema camera from it's first announcement, but it was also planned from the very beginning that it would be a flexible camera system that could be accessorized to do EFP and some ENG-style (not necessarily news gathering, but ENG-style). How do I know these things?

1) I was an invited attendee to the very first spec planning meeting for RED One at Oakley headquarters, in December 2005. Though I also shoot cine-style, I have a deep EFP and ENG-style production background and I gave extensive input on what I felt RED One should be at that meeting. I also gave digital cinema input there. It was an awesome think tank that day…

2) From the very announcement of RED One, after that first meeting, the proposed RED camera was called a digital cinema camera but acknowledged as additionally a camera for EFP/ENG-style production, when accessorized for such. The big difference being that the RED camera would be an all-manual camera – but a lot of EFP work is manual also.

3) Multiple statements from the RED team since the announcement of RED One have verified it as a digital cinema camera, but affirmed its additional broad use as an EFP/ENG-style camera. As an example, if you haven't read it, please read my April 2006 published interview with Jim Jannard. You'll find several affirmations in that interview that RED One was being designed as both a digital cinema camera and an EFP/ENG-style camera. Here's a link to that interview: http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/6388.html

All this said, I agree with your position on this thread about not having field erasure capability on RED One as a feature. I’ve always felt that reviewing/erasing footage in the field was full of pitfalls. In fact, when I’ve functioned as a director for tape-based acquisition productions in the field, one of my hard and fast rules for my camera ops has always been that they not review their footage. There’s too much opportunity to put hits in tapes, record over valuable footage, etc. In disc-based and Flash-based recording, in non-hardlined environments, I still keep the same rules for my crews (and myself if I’m shooting) – no review in the field. It’s a distraction, disks/Flash could be misplaced, footage could be mistakenly erased from the media, etc. Digital acquisition is a WYSIWYG environment. We use EVF and monitors that show you what you’re shooting/getting – in real time. Add in the factor of shooting RAW, which can be deeply tweaked in pre-post and post, and I just don’t see the need to review and erase footage in the field when doing non-hardlined EFP and ENG-style production - or mobile digital cinema either.

So, I agree with your position on not reviewing/erasing in the field, but I hope now you realize that the EFP/ENG-style capabilities of RED One were not a later-added afterthought, but rather well thought out capabilities that have been part of RED One from “Day One”. That's the beauty of RED One to me - flexibility and utility across multiple genres and styles of production.

I appreciate your input, and I think you bring some great insight into real-world production issues. TJ, the same for you. Your posts are interesting and reflect a good view of the issues involved with mobile EFP production.

Peace…

 

[tj williams]

Hi Steve, I made an IMDB search wondering if we'd ever worked together. I have worked a bunch in Canada, way back. Somehow couldn't find you??? TJ Williams is my actual name,
Anyhoo I agree the feature set I'd like to see isn't for everyone. If you'll go back to my first post on this thread I was talking about those media management features which are starting to show up on Broadcast cameras as they go digital. I think many of these features are quite valuable and since they are software maybe not all that expensive to introduce into the RED.

Some of them:

1. a picture from the clip as an icon of the clip along with the time recorded and length of the clip. visable in the viewfinder or monitor.
2. The ability to manipulate these clips into selects, outtakes, neutral clips, and the ability to erase or reorganize them as you see fit.
(recognizing that erasing other than the last clip may have speed loss effects on the mag. drives, this probably means the ability to defrag the mag. or limits us to only the last clip)
3. I would also like the ability to choose what to run out off the mag. so I wouldnt have to fill up the hard drives on the portable computer with a buncha stuff, just to be able to send the 15 important clips, all rendered, along with the client.

I realize these features are not for everyone, and I would hope that the RED development team, will allow you to delete them from your camera if you wish. I may also find features I don't like and the ability to delete access to features for our differences in opinion about whats valuable and especially for rental houses is probably good.

Gibby: There seems to be quite a bit of support for allowing at least erasure of the last clip from other posters, which would be useful to some of us. We all have different philosophys about recording. I for instance almost always start my day with a short record and playback. When I can't fit that in I try to playback the picture and sound from the first recording. The reason I do that is to be sure that I'm actually making a recording, although I'm passing signal to a monitor, that doesn't mean the tape deck/ disk drive/etc is actually working! because I'm a little paranoid I do this again at wrap. Unless we are making playbacks for a client all day,as often happens on spots.

 

[Stuart English]

Delete Last Clip

Delete Last Clip

If it did exist, any suggestions how a "Delete / Overwrite the Last Clip" should be incorporated into the camera's physical / menu interfaces?

 

[Steve Gibby]

Hi Steve, I made an IMDB search wondering if we'd ever worked together. I have worked a bunch in Canada, way back. Somehow couldn't find you??? TJ Williams is my actual name, .

Was this paragraph for Steve Gibby? If you did an IMDB search for me, you won’t find a listing for me on IMDB because I’ve never submitted data to have a file created. Almost all of my career work is eligible by their criteria, but the largest bulk of my work has been television, and I had significant credits, marketing, and Rolodex long before IMDB was an option. If you visit my web sites, or do a Google search for my name you’ll find a wealth of info on me and my projects. At some point I may submit data for an IMDB profile, but its not a high priority for me right now.

1. a picture from the clip as an icon of the clip along with the time recorded and length of the clip. visable in the viewfinder or monitor. .

Sure…I’m familiar with that feature on cameras I’ve used. It can be useful, but for me it isn’t a high priority feature to ask for on RED One. RED One will already have a potential bunch of programmable icons and data available for the LCD & EVF. If it would mean delaying the release of RED One to engineer this feature, I’d just as soon do without it.

2. The ability to manipulate these clips into selects, outtakes, neutral clips, and the ability to erase or reorganize them as you see fit. (recognizing that erasing other than the last clip may have speed loss effects on the mag. drives, this probably means the ability to defrag the mag. or limits us to only the last clip) .

Last clip delete would be fine for me, and I’ve used many other cameras that have these features. That said, RED can only pack so many features into the camera, and at some point they have to stop taking feature requests, and build and deliver the camera. Perhaps some of these could be optional firmware upgrades downloadable to the camera at sometime in the future.

3. I would also like the ability to choose what to run out off the mag. so I wouldnt have to fill up the hard drives on the portable computer with a buncha stuff, just to be able to send the 15 important clips, all rendered, along with the client. .

For nearly 3 decades of shooting my motto, and the motto I ask my crews to abide by, has been “All killer – and no filler”. I ask myself and my crews to not pull the trigger on a shot unless it is a real good shot and they feel they have it right. Also, as a career-long editor of programs, I know the last thing I want myself or my editors to suffer through is having to log and sort through a lot of unusable or extraneous footage. I repeatedly have editors of our footage say things like “Hey, over 90% of the footage on your mags, tapes, or drives was usable – you made our job easier". I see that you have a similar goal, to get to the footage dump (hard drive, etc.) with only the “keepers”. I have that same goal, but also a goal to satisfy that need at the acquisition stage – not by a selective dump before the real dump. I don’t view RED One not having that selective dump ability as a hindrance to my workflow. I guess everyone has their own nuances of workflow…

Gibby: There seems to be quite a bit of support for allowing at least erasure of the last clip from other posters, which would be useful to some of us. We all have different philosophys about recording. I for instance almost always start my day with a short record and playback. When I can't fit that in I try to playback the picture and sound from the first recording. The reason I do that is to be sure that I'm actually making a recording, although I'm passing signal to a monitor, that doesn't mean the tape deck/ disk drive/etc is actually working! because I'm a little paranoid I do this again at wrap. Unless we are making playbacks for a client all day,as often happens on spots.

Ability for quick erasure of the last clip would be fine with me. The first time me or one of my crew used that feature and mistakenly erased a critical footage sequence from an event we were covering, or was reviewing the last clip while missing other critical shots for the show, I’d have to ban the use of that feature. It’s one thing in a slow paced EFP/ENG-style setting, where lets say you’re out by yourself shooting some stock footage or b-roll. Then you’d have plenty of time to review the last clip regularly and do a “keep/toss” decision. But in a faster paced EFP/ENG-style environment where it is critical that everybody get it right the first time, I expect my crews to do just that – and there just isn’t time for them to be constantly reviewing their last shots.


----------------------------------------------------------

I think the features you asked for are all logical, and they are already in use on various EFP/ENG-style cameras. Unfortunately time is money for RED, and the R & D money clock is ticking away on RED One. RED is already bringing us the most versatile and flexible camera ever made – one that should be great for cine-style and EFP/ENG style production – at an astounding price point – with features we never dreamed of. That said, there will be some features that people ask for that don’t make it into the camera, or are firmware upgrade that will arrive later. Outside of last clip delete, I think the other features you asked for won’t make it into RED One, if nothing else because of the time factor in getting the camera produced, and the fact that there hasn’t been a high demand for those features over all these months of feedback on RED One development. Again, they are good suggestions, and they could possibly be future optional firmware upgrades, but something tells me you won’t see most of them on the initial version of RED One.

 

[Chris Kenny]

If it did exist, any suggestions how a "Delete / Overwrite the Last Clip" should be incorporated into the camera's physical / menu interfaces?

It's a little hard to say without knowing more about how the camera's interface works in general, but...

If you guys are implementing digital slating, you might consider having the interface for that come up after a take is completed. At that time, the camera would confirm the scene/shot/take (by default assuming the same scene/shot as the previous take, and automatically incrementing the take number). This interface would let you manually change any of that information for the take that had just been completed, and also give you a couple of other options, like "mark good" (attaches appropriate metadata), "review" (plays the take back, then returns to the slating interface), and "delete". A simple "Are you sure?" confirmation for deleting should be sufficient.

There should also be an option to disable the deleting feature; to remove that menu item. Some productions will have a policy against using it, and if the operator had to go into an options menu and explicitly re-enable it, it would discourage use in such cases.

 

[Corrado Silveri]

If it did exist, any suggestions how a "Delete / Overwrite the Last Clip" should be incorporated into the camera's physical / menu interfaces?

I don't want this feature.... Give my vote to Finner:

"Never erase something already shot until the edit process".

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Well......if the delete/overwrite button existed....my suggestion would be...

After the shot is completed
-> two small icons appear under the screen (text takes too much space and brain faster detects pics than words)
LEFT-DELETE-garbage bin , RIGHT - PROCEED-film roll icon or similar symbol
The default setting is "proceed" and this option needs no action.
This will speed up and simplify the process. No accidental deletion and "Ups guys, I forgot to press PROCEED" type of situations.

-> For deletion shooter needs to push a different button, situated possibly on the left

No additonal menus needed, no too much timetaking R&D.

I think the best physical solution would be a 4-directional multifunctional button on the left of the REC button (confirmation would be either 5th direction - a push in, or another button).

Another possible location for the DELETE/OVERWRITE button would be on the left front end of the cam body, as close to the lens as possible.
For me, multifunctionality of those buttons is also important
(space taking, simplicity, design..etc)

Gibby's suggestion reminded me of the importance of providing a possibility of firmware upgrade.
Re-programmable internal camera system could leave you guys the time to perfect the hardware part and just release the extra features for the REDcore as you develope them.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

just an idea...

..for a quick and easy access, even without looking.
The middle button is a 4 directional button.
Later software upgrades could provide customization of camera's menu and settings.

 

[GlennChan]

Maybe you can make it so that you have to explicitly enable the delete feature (and/or a digital slating feature). This makes the camera more foolproof. Of course if you do this, most people will not know about this feature and will only find it useful if they've read the manual beforehand. Which may be ok, since most people will not need this feature (and for most people, it is an un-feature).

 

[Finner]

just an idea...

..for a quick and easy access, even without looking.
The middle button is a 4 directional button.
Later software upgrades could provide customization of camera's menu and settings.

This is a great idea to be able to access menu settings from the smart side.

 

[Gregory Karydis]

Coming from a DSLR environment (EOS 1D), to delete a shot you must press a combination of buttons so you may not accidentally make a mistake you regret.

I have used a scroll wheel to make selections and scroll through vast menus at a fast (controlled) pace and IF there was a scroll wheel on RED, I would feel right at home to press a button for the scroll wheel to move to a different selection. i.e. Delete [Yes - No]

 

[Stuart English]

Clip Management

Clip Management

Lets continue this discussion (theoretical, as we don't have the features in Rev1 firmware) Lets also assume we can easily upgrade camera firmware.

Also understand that the primary workflow for RED_ONE is intended to be - shoot a sequence of clips (gathering metadata as you go), then mount the Digital Magazine to REDCINE, where we can much more easily perform our good / not good take operations; then convert only your selected clips from RAW to RGB. (More REDCINE details later, but its important to know this as it puts in-camera clip management into context)

If we are shooting ENG/EFP we have a REC buttom on the B4 lens. Or if using P/L there's one on a Preston. If on a tripod we have a REC button on the back of the camera. There is also one more one on the "smart side"

Concept idea - (via appropriate menu setting) Allow the user to change the function of the "smart side" REC button to become UNREC or OVERREC?

Note there are three keys here - a "REC" and two "User" keys. Anyone want to take a stab at how to use them in this situation?

There are also four keys on the side of the viewfinder -

http://red.com/images/photo_zoom/redone_7.jpg

Again, thanks for all the suggestions .....

 

[Júlio Taubkin]

As we are right now, do we slate our takes on set or do we have to wait and name them in REDCINE?

 

[Stuart English]

Slating

Slating

Explain ?

 

[Chris Kenny]

Also understand that the primary workflow for RED_ONE is intended to be - shoot a sequence of clips (gathering metadata as you go), then mount the Digital Magazine to REDCINE, where we can much more easily perform our good / not good take operations; then convert only your selected clips from RAW to RGB. (More REDCINE details later, but its important to know this as it puts in-camera clip management into context)

Hmm... I think being able to set a simple 'mark good' flag on set could be a big timesaver, despite the fact that the on-camera interface is obviously going to be rather more awkward than what you can do in REDCINE. On-set, you mostly wouldn't even have to review the take to set this flag, since you'd just seen it live. By the time you get into REDCINE, you don't remember which takes were good and you have to watch them all again to figure it out.

Of course, the editor is probably going to watch everything eventually anyway, but it would be great to have some guidance up front from on-set metadata.

If we are shooting ENG/EFP we have a REC buttom on the B4 lens. Or if using P/L there's one on a Preston. If on a tripod we have a REC button on the back of the camera. There is also one more one on the "smart side"

Concept idea - (via appropriate menu setting) Allow the user to change the function of the "smart side" REC button to become UNREC or OVERREC?

This feels slightly less intuitive to me than just having a 'delete last take' command. On the other hand, if I'm understanding the way this works, it does have one big practical advantage; the previous take isn't actually deleted until you record the next one, so you have as much time as possible to change your mind, and just toggle the OVERREC button back to REC.

Note there are three keys here - a "REC" and two "User" keys. Anyone want to take a stab at how to use them in this situation?

What kind of GUI are you guys putting on the camera? Switching to OVERREC mode is going to be an uncommon enough operation that it's something you could just put in the menu interface. I don't see a compelling need to be able to toggle it from these user keys. After recording one take in OVERREC, the camera should switch back to REC mode automatically.

 

[Júlio Taubkin]

Explain ?

Can we name our takes (Scene 01 Shot 01 take 01), and see the file with a compatible name, or our files are going to be called something like 3_38753f002.red ?

BTW, I'm also aggainst deleting stuff on set. Even if it's a delete last take, make it VERY hard to find. Kind of like color adjustments on Sony prosumer cameras...