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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Just got my hands on a Dragon

It's a different climate now. When R1 was out there was a white pages that kept changing. With Epic it was ETTR, then ETTL, Epic101 putting out some info that was different than the forums. ISO 320 native or ISO 800.

So I asked Jim to start putting videos out, start adding education for people that want to use these cameras, and they listen. Now RED.com has some very useful starter information and Dragons will sell better than any camera RED has ever created. They said RED revolutionized filmmaking, now it's a staple of it.

Scarlet is now dead, the last Epic X shipped and the split personalities are over. We now have one camera to focus on, to buy, in or out.


Phil Holland said:
One thing that is in the back of my mind at the moment though. Dragon is the best overall image quality that has ever come out of a Red digital cinema camera. I do think that this will effect sales considerably once they start shipping, productions start showcasing more work, and people actually knowing the camera is available. There will be high demand likely throughout 2014 and perhaps into 2015. For those who have a path to upgrade either to Epic Dragon or Scarlet Dragon it will at some point be a bit of a no-brainer if funds can be secured.
Click to expand...
 
Mark Toia said:
I'm getting almost noiseless images from Dragon.... secret, shoot everything at 250asa or less.
Only push past 800, 1000 upwards only when you really need to.
The question I asked myself was, why shoot at 800 when you don't need to.
Click to expand...

If we can shoot at such LOW ISO w/out penalty, I suppose it does mean there isn't such a huge need for the Motion Mount correct? Not that the mount isn't amazing, but it also sounds like we won't have to ND for 2000 ISO...esp with 250 ISO working out so well...
 
Ok I'm back home , getting my thoughts together for tommorow.

Your lighting changes. In a sense it's harder to light for dragon cause you want to use all of its DR cause you can. I'm lighting the scenes with, 2x 10k's into an overhead 12x silk, and a maxi brute on a 1200amp dimmer, as a set piece and backlight with no fill. I can't clip anything but the sources in the maxi.....

It's scary. It makes my "insane" lighting style feel tame and elegant as opposed to the bold and brash it usually feels on a epic MX. The dr absorbes the wildness and makes it feel calm and collected. I felt like I was watching someone else shoot through my own eyes,
 
Mark Toia said:
I'm getting almost noiseless images from Dragon.... secret, shoot everything at 250asa or less.
Only push past 800, 1000 upwards only when you really need to.
The question I asked myself was, why shoot at 800 when you don't need to.
Click to expand...

I agree...

In sync with a few of the things I have showed.
 
Nick Morrison said:
If we can shoot at such LOW ISO w/out penalty, I suppose it does mean there isn't such a huge need for the Motion Mount correct? Not that the mount isn't amazing, but it also sounds like we won't have to ND for 2000 ISO...esp with 250 ISO working out so well...
Click to expand...

I think the Dragon with MM, is pretty freaking wild....
 
Timur Civan said:
Ok I'm back home , getting my thoughts together for tommorow.

Your lighting changes. In a sense it's harder to light for dragon cause you want to use all of its DR cause you can. I'm lighting the scenes with, 2x 10k's into an overhead 12x silk, and a maxi brute on a 1200amp dimmer, as a set piece and backlight with no fill. I can't clip anything but the sources in the maxi.....

It's scary. It makes my "insane" lighting style feel tame and elegant as opposed to the bold and brash it usually feels on a epic MX. The dr absorbes the wildness and makes it feel calm and collected. I felt like I was watching someone else shoot through my own eyes,
Click to expand...

Yup.

Finally you can really play with lights again...
 
Will Keir said:
Was Epic loved so much as Dragon is before it's release?

I'm seeing all sorts of people with a love for this monster. What is the same with Epic? I was around. I don't remember such fondness.
Click to expand...

For me Epic with Mysterium-X was "the business". Dragon pretty much improves upon it in every way while (I believe) satisfying some of the Red/Mysterium-X critics.

I have always been different on that front. I focus on what the tools can do and where their potential and strengths can be, while being aware of their weaknesses, which all camera systems have. I think the people who choose to shoot and create motion pictures on Red are mostly the same way.


Will Keir said:
How long is the BS? 5 minutes or less now?

Epic is around 15min?
Click to expand...

I timed one of the prototypes during a shoot back in July. It was 9 minutes. That might have changed slightly, but it's around that.


Will Keir said:
It's a different climate now. When R1 was out there was a white pages that kept changing. With Epic it was ETTR, then ETTL, Epic101 putting out some info that was different than the forums. ISO 320 native or ISO 800.

So I asked Jim to start putting videos out, start adding education for people that want to use these cameras, and they listen. Now RED.com has some very useful starter information and Dragons will sell better than any camera RED has ever created. They said RED revolutionized filmmaking, now it's a staple of it.

Scarlet is now dead, the last Epic X shipped and the split personalities are over. We now have one camera to focus on, to buy, in or out.
Click to expand...

I find that Reducation is likely the best quick course to get people up and shooting with a bit of post knowledge in there too. Such is the way of hands on training from skilled professionals. I've been approached about a handful of times in the last two years to make videos or teach classes, but I fight the time monster most weeks. It's still in the back of my mind though. Who knows. Maybe in 2014 I'll do some quick tips or something. Much of the Data Sheets and other info could be easily understood through small videos explaining some Red basics. hmmmm. Gotta think.

I don't feel that Scarlet is dead. I don't actually feel any of the Mysterium-X cameras are dead. In terms of rental rates, yep a 2007 camera is certainly not going to rent in the realm of modern systems with additional features and newer tech. But they still make pretty images and I still know people cranking out compelling imagery on the Red One. I might feel differently at the end of 2014 and early 2015 once the landscape is clearer. The movies still hold up and that's what matters. I think they'll hold up for some time too. Camera advancement on the top end is going to be a bit different for the next few years compared to what has transpired in the past.

Perhaps the most important thing to me is Red produces something that nobody else offers in terms of feature set and function. That actually starts at the sensor size for me. Dragon in more ways than one comes through on the true promise that Red was launched under. Mysterium-X to me was the film alternative. Dragon is the film replacement. That's a big statement, but I'm standing by it on technical merit alone. Aesthetically there will always be that difference.


Mark Toia said:
I'm getting almost noiseless images from Dragon.... secret, shoot everything at 250asa or less.
Only push past 800, 1000 upwards only when you really need to.
The question I asked myself was, why shoot at 800 when you don't need to.
Click to expand...

Sexy. 200-800 there's nothing to fear. I even think up to 2000 is gravy. But you know..... It's good to know how far we can push it just in case :)


Nick Morrison said:
If we can shoot at such LOW ISO w/out penalty, I suppose it does mean there isn't such a huge need for the Motion Mount correct? Not that the mount isn't amazing, but it also sounds like we won't have to ND for 2000 ISO...esp with 250 ISO working out so well...
Click to expand...

The Motion Mount isn't really about need, but more about flexibility. If you want to shoot T2 during the daytime, ND filtration is going to still be a part of your life. The Motion Mount does many more things than just ND as well (strobe safe, global shutter, soft shutter, color accuracy over glass filtration). It does electronic interior ND which is pretty rad for quick adjustments and compact kits. That said, I agree with Mark in terms of being able to use that ISO 250. Motion Mount attached cuts off 1.6 stops of light immediately and for some folks that's super fun and useful.


Timur Civan said:
Ok I'm back home , getting my thoughts together for tommorow.
Click to expand...

Can't wait to hear/read what your experience was.
 
Nick Morrison said:
If we can shoot at such LOW ISO w/out penalty, I suppose it does mean there isn't such a huge need for the Motion Mount correct? Not that the mount isn't amazing, but it also sounds like we won't have to ND for 2000 ISO...esp with 250 ISO working out so well...
Click to expand...

Motion mount has (3) attributes with global shutter, type of shutter, and Nd ability. Going from 800 to 250 saves you potentially about 1 2/3 stops of ND which isn't much when we now often carry up to 2.1 or 7 stops of ND for exterior work. So with Dragon maybe only 5 stops would be required to have with. But motion mount is a lot of things, including changing those ND filter grades at the click of a button. Keep the motion mount. :wink5:
 
Having had the issue of having to "start with" ND 1.5 - ND 1.8 for Dayligh Exts, has been one of the major hazzles with MX. Not because of the mattebox, but because of IR and ND-cast, and optical distortion issues.

Now, being able to get rid of most of these issues AND have the option to have global shutter, that is HUGE!
 
Phil Holland said:
The Motion Mount isn't really about need, but more about flexibility. If you want to shoot T2 during the daytime, ND filtration is going to still be a part of your life. The Motion Mount does many more things than just ND as well (strobe safe, global shutter, soft shutter, color accuracy over glass filtration). It does electronic interior ND which is pretty rad for quick adjustments and compact kits. That said, I agree with Mark in terms of being able to use that ISO 250. Motion Mount attached cuts off 1.6 stops of light immediately and for some folks that's super fun and useful.
Click to expand...

Super helpful. Thanks Phil. With Motion Mount plus clean 250iso, looks like outdoors we'd be saving upto 3 stops vs MX (where I'm usually NDing for 800). And then being able to dial in extra digital ND on top of that is fantastic. Really cuts down on the amount of filters you may need to use outside, esp as the mount includes a polarizer. So whereas now I may have ND .9, a polarizer, and BPM. With the MM I could pretty much just get away with BPM...and dial in everything else digitally.

WOW....add global shutter, etc....and you start to really see the value of the MM.

thx
 
Timur Civan said:
Using the Diamond bros camera.

It doesn't have anamorphic yet.....

:(

But.... but... but.......i have a whole set of Anamorphics on set tomorrow.....

Other than that, its pretty nifty. Black shading now, just hooked up the Canon mount, and REDmote.

Will keep you posted in a bit....

EDIT 1:

Just fired it up. Put on a Canon 85mm F1.8 EF, it has nice contrast so the blacks will be black.

2min Later.....

Whoah..........

EDIT 2:

Highlight tonality is off the charts. It is grainy in the shadows though. But likely user error. Need to re-learn this camera.

EDIT 3:

V5XeRwH.jpg


Ok so, shoot this puppy at 800.... Spotless with insane highlight retention.

The light in the shot is a clamp light with a 250w e27 adapted arri globe in it. Thats the ONLY source of light in the room other than the Xmas lights in the back, and a TV wich you can just see the screen. Thats where the blue glow in the back is coming from. All that shadow detail lit from a plasma TV, velvety upper 6 stops, and you can still see the interior of the main source. Magical.
Click to expand...

Whoa! wow! this sensor ROCKS!!!!!
 
Super like....

Harcharan
 
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