Jumping off the Red Wagon

[BRANDON JAMESON]

Haha. Got it. I need to go to bed!!

Exactly!!!!

Sorry for the misunderstanding!!!!!

Sleep well

 

[David Battistella]

Ok, Luigi's screen grab brought my attention to something that doesn't make any sense to me:

Look at the highlight rolloff on the LLO versus the STHL - flower detail and most clearly, the very rolloff on the right side of the waveforms. Why is the low light optimized OLPF clipping so much less than the Skin Tone Highlight?

That makes precisely NO sense. I couldn't see the OLPF in the metadata (should I?). And FWIW, it was redcode 4:1 not 5:1 stated in the metadata as well.

For what it is worth.

These tests were done BEFORE there were different calibrations specifically for both OLPFs, the internal firmware OLPF sector came out AFTER these tests, so, these tests are not entirely indicative of what the camera would do today as the FW has been tuned for each specific OLPF.

I think these tests are relevant but they are about a year old. (or more possibly) so comparing waveforms is not really indicative of what you might capture now.

This particular set of tests was "threaded to death" when released and there is a lot of pertinent discussion. If you search Geoff Boyle test, they won't be hard to find.

This is not entirely a pixel peeping discussion, or a camera comparison discussion.

One thing Frank did mention is that he is really switching COMPANIES/CULTURES, which has not been discussed as much.
I am curious about that, because I can identify with the technology, but I'm not so identified with the branding, army nomenclature, etc, that is not what gets me excited about owning RED, the images the camera creates does. I am pretty indifferent to the culture but I know some people feel very strongly about this.

So Frank, Can I ask what prompted the switch from a company standpoint?

 

[Frank Hague]

This is not entirely a pixel peeping discussion, or a camera comparison discussion.

One thing Frank did mention is that he is really switching COMPANIES/CULTURES, which has not been discussed as much.
I am curious about that, because I can identify with the technology, but I'm not so identified with the branding, army nomenclature, etc, that is not what gets me excited about owning RED, the images the camera creates does. I am pretty indifferent to the culture but I know some people feel very strongly about this.

So Frank, Can I ask what prompted the switch from a company standpoint?

You're absolutely right. In this thread I have defended the Dragon as a camera (which is far and away the finest I've had the privilege of owning) and stated, verbatim, that this was a choice between companies, not cameras.

Like you, I am not a fan of the militaristic marketing or branding, let alone the army behind it that parades this board in jingoist fashion and flaunts around town in billboard bodies of skull hats and stickers. These are merely veneers though, I'm more concerned with substance over surface. It's what I already mentioned earlier that has broke the camel for me, personally:

I'd appreciate it if they didn't present upgrades every year to our cameras, or at least allow us to actually receive the cameras when we order them so we have an entire year to use them before being asked to upgrade. I wish they wouldn't tell us we only have a few days to preorder the upgrade before the deal gets worse without even having their reps tell us exactly what we're paying for (and then come back a week later and say they're prolonging this grace period by a few weeks and act like they're doing us a favor for fixing their own mistake). I wish the cameras and upgrades I was preordering would come with all the features they're advertised as without having to wait for them to create fixes and then having to send it in for said fixes. I wish they wouldn't claim their cameras to have 21 stops of dynamic range in their initial tests. And I wish they would respond to these critiques with some accountability for a change. Recognizing these mistakes would be the first step to righting the path.

These are all aspects of their business model that aren't prevalent in Arri's.

There are other additional issues that I've listed in this thread, though I'm not sure they bear any further repeating since most everyone I speak with in the industry is well aware of Red's MO. I'm PRO-RED and I want this reputation to be absolved. i think it's going to be very difficult to change the greater public's perception until Red recognizes how and why it has gotten this stigma. Letting the fanboys fight a losing battle isn't helping anyone.

 

[Phil Holland]

I'd appreciate it if they didn't present upgrades every year to our cameras, or at least allow us to actually receive the cameras when we order them so we have an entire year to sue them before being asked to upgrade. I wish they wouldn't tell us we only have a few days to preorder the upgrade before the deal gets worse without even having their reps tell us exactly what we're paying for (and then come back a week later and say they're prolonging this grace period by a few weeks and act like they're doing us a favor for fixing their own mistake). I wish the cameras and upgrades I was preordering would come with all the features they're advertised as without having to wait for them to create fixes and then having to send it in for said fixes. I wish they wouldn't claim their cameras to have 21 stops of dynamic range in their initial tests. And I wish they would respond to these critiques with some accountability for a change. Recognizing these mistakes would be the first step to righting the path.

These are all aspects of their business model that aren't prevalent in Arri's.

There are other additional issues that I've listed in this thread, though I'm not sure they bear any further repeating since most everyone I speak with in the industry is well aware of Red's MO. I'm PRO-RED and I want this reputation to be absolved. i think it's going to be very difficult to change the greater public's perception until Red recognizes how and why it has gotten this stigma. Letting the fanboys fight a losing battle isn't helping anyone.

Been reading and watching this discussion for a while. Just a point to make, at least from what I see what's going on. From my perspective it appears RED is really motivated to create a compact production camera that has a feature set that solves several production "requests" many have made over the years while adding a host of new forward thinking things in a very compact body. That's what Weapon is and that is also visibly what I think RED is doing in moving forward with it's development. Despite many of us not needing ProRes for those of us comfortable working with REDCODE RAW, clients industry-wide have been asking for it. Now when that question is brought up it should more or less be an easy "yes, Weapon does that" once it's all said and done. Interestingly, there's really nothing else on the camera front that small that can do all of that.

Just a note on Dynamic Range and Dragon. Back in December of 2012, before Dragon's official release, Jarred posted that now infamous 21 stop image which was showing just what the "pure" sensor could see. It wasn't a claim as that was before any Color Science was developed or applied and that was clearly stated in his post. It did show exactly how much "meat" the sensor had. However, many took that information and ran with it thinking that's what "we" had access to. However, Color Science was eventually developed and how RED utilized that Dynamic Range is what we are getting in the profiles for the various flavors of OLPFs. I got rather curious about this in early 2014 (my Dragon shipped at the end of 2013) and I did these rather controlled tests which was rather informative to see exactly how much Dynamic Range the Dragon sensor could see in practical use. In terms of value separation you can measure 19 stops. In practical use with a proper curve you do have about 16/17 stops of Dynamic Range available to you, which eventually led to [http://artbyphil.com/phfx/red/dragon/images/phfx_redDragon_ISOExamples.jpgURL="http://artbyphil.com/phfx/red/dragon/images/phfx_redDragon_ISOExamples.jpg"]this information[/URL]. All of those wedges are actual patches from those tests. The net result of all of this is how RED used that pure available Dynamic Range in what we experience as a "normal" color looking image. There are Pros and Cons to sharing information like that first 21 stop chart. RED was excited about the potential of what Dragon could do and they came forth with it. However, it was before the beast was wrangled fully. It's obviously now wrangled and depending on how you shoot Dragon (ISO Rating) that's how much Dynamic Range you're getting.

I'm fortunate to be within the thick of things here in LA and have done more camera tests than I'd care to admit to, but in these accelerated 4K times with so many camera options studios have needed tests done. Lots and lots of tests for every camera system. There's a million reasons why a feature, broadcast, or other choose a specific camera system over the other. And then there's the weirder conversation of "what's important" to their specific creative and technical needs in terms of the workflow they need to hit. It is interesting when I see conversations about "X DP always shoots this" or "these productions always used that". That's cool and fine if that's what informs that individuals opinion about a system. That however eliminates any perspective on testing for yourself and seeing what you can get out of the camera system. For many RED is the answer, for many others other cameras are the answer. All good.

In terms of certain aspects of your criticism Frank RED can take some notes. Specifically in terms of how to approach informing about upgrades. However, they are indeed focused on making improvements to the camera in ways other manufacturers are not. RED is different in that way and things do change as things are uncovered. I think the Interchangeable OLPF System is an example of that. We didn't know about that when RED was first announcing Dragon, however people demanded certain things from the image quality and RED came through with a unique solution with both pros and cons to using different OLPFs for shooting.

To your investment with RED Epic Dragon. Well, the good news is you'll have an option to upgrade to whatever is next, so your investment is still "live" if you choose to explore that next upgrade path. Weapon is one of those options for Dragon owners and what is known today. Down the line, who knows what's next? Specs are sometimes a moving target during a camera's development, but looking what RED is doing with Weapon straight off the NAB one sheet you can see what direction this is going. Hopefully a lot of that is all hammered down when the camera is released, but there will always be "more coming" because things move fast these days. Just to note, the Weapon upgrade was announced and nothing is seemingly stopping anybody from upgrading much later down the line as of yet. There are benefits and risks to being on the early adopter front. RED offers certain incentives for those bold enough to make decision. That's their model and it's how it's been explored in the past.

As for the branding and what not, it is what it is and it's how RED has chosen to separate themselves from the A-syllable-A, T-800, and other common naming conventions. In actually it has been effective in separating themselves from the crowd. Everybody knows what an Epic or Scarlet is due to that, which is nice. Personally I don't really care what my camera model is called as long as it makes the pictures I desire to capture. I know that particular issues, particularly with Weapon, has been polarizing for some. However, RED started long ago with Weapon and the solution in terms of it being plastered on the camera has been to minimize the Weapon branding to just the medallion on the front of the camera and even offering the stealth version (all black) of that medallion.

 

[David Battistella]

Great post Phil.

One thing I have thought about and might be nice is a version of Weapon that does not have the prores recording option. I don't know how much savings could be passed along but I'm not that interested in buying something I never use and really don't want or need.

That "option" came at a cost to red because I imagine the license isn't all that inexpensive but it's not a deal breaker for me.

I still ill don't know the extent of re-acquiring top and bottom plates, v-lock mounts, and the time, energy and cost in re-kitting a camera. I've have such a comfort level (that matters a lot to me because familiarity of where things are matters) with my Epeic Dragon, that I'm wanting to figure out the totality of what changing bodies means in the other intangible things.

Im pretty certain RED has very cool stuff coming down the pipe with ET, that will make weapon "set ready", but the big advancements I would like to see.

1. Virtually instant on.
2. A large decrease in overall power consumption (maybe a lower power drawing LCD)
3. A universal windows, Linux, Unix, Mac POSTbox that auto launches RCX when attached via Thunderbolt and crunches r3d that is half the size of redray player.

 

[David Battistella]

i think it's going to be very difficult to change the greater public's perception until Red recognizes how and why it has gotten this stigma. Letting the fanboys fight a losing battle isn't helping anyone.

Thanks for taking the time to answer Frank. This has been one of the more civilized threads on reduser lately.

 

[Sergio Perez]

I was considering myself outside of the Red game as well, but recent developments on my financial side are creating a glimpse of hope on going the only path I see myself taking on this journey with Red, and that is towards 8K and carbon Weapon. As content creators, artists, but also people that need return from our investments, currently for independents it seems like buying a 30k camera its something that doesn't make much sense economicaly . In the High end world, Arri is coming with the rental only (initially) 65, Panavision is arguably working on another large format camera, Red goes for 8K (but at what price?) and at the lower end, Vista Vision size sensor cameras (Sony A7R) are starting to deliver in camera 4K.

In these times, one has to ask if this sort of investment makes sense. It surely does if the market responds to it- it did for the red one, the Epic, the Dragon but specially for the Alexa. To the point its becoming close to a "standard". As a Red owner for 3 and a half years ( not close to the Red One pioneers here), but as someone that has always followed the company and its advancements for many years, all I can say is that I am a very happy costumer and the camera has always delivered exceptionaly. Its cutting edge features, form factor, varia le frame rates, resolution and dynamic range were fantastic for such a small package. Looking at the competition- and knowing we are sure to see in the next months/years advancements on th competition such as the recent sony chips, I am obviously concerned with a huge investment in a Weapon. But I think 8K imagery from Dragon Weapon will be truly breathtaking and also groundbreaking. With variable frame rates I still think going for it is the way to go. But 60 to 70k? Lets hope what I have coming really happens...

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

I think since Weapon release the tone of REDUSER has changed. Even mods seem MUCH more open to discussing REDs downsides post Weapon.

There are also less of the extreme fanboys around (or they have handed in their fanboy card and now moderate themselves with more realistic discussion), HOWEVER; still a few fanboys here and there to ensure a thread stays alive for plenty pages. But its not the same. Less fanboys equals more level headed discussion.

Could it be that the 7 year long honeymoon is at an end and helpful realistic, mature chat might prevail? Fingers crossed.

 

[David Battistella]

I think since Weapon release the tone of REDUSER has changed. Even mods seem MUCH more open to discussing REDs downsides post Weapon.

There are also less of the extreme fanboys around (or they have handed in their fanboy card and now moderate themselves with more realistic discussion), HOWEVER; still a few fanboys here and there to ensure a thread stays alive for plenty pages. But its not the same. Less fanboys equals more level headed discussion.

Could it be that the 7 year long honeymoon is at an end and helpful realistic, mature chat might prevail? Fingers crossed.

every now and again those glass half full guys come along and take the high road.

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

every now and again those glass half full guys come along and take the high road.

The glass (half full or half empty) does not have koolaid in it anymore. It is a good thing.

 

[David Battistella]

And that's a wrap on what was, for a while, a meaningful and substantial discussion.