Jumping off the Red Wagon

[Frank Hague]

We always try to put ourselves in the shoes of the customer...within reason, of course. Jim and Jarred have preached that since the day I arrived in 2007. That is where upgrades came from. Because if they were a customer, that's what they'd want - instead of having to buy a new camera.

So, in the shoes of the customer, you'd think it was more economical to turn in your camera for only 15,000 dollars of credit when it could be sold on Reduser within a week for up to 25,000? Or was giving its street value back in credit not within reason?

I understand that perhaps the previous upgrade paths really were not within reason as they were so amazing getting your full purchase price back, however offering less than its street value seems more unreasonable than even that.

 

[Zeb B]

I think he is simply saying he hasn't yet pushed it so hard that he has maxxed out it's potential... each time shooting finding more and more he CAN do with it. He did not mean (I believe) that some limit is keeping him back. And if Mark Toia has yet to use the full potential of Dragon, then that is a LOT of potential...

That would be an odd statement from a guy who raced motorcycles for a living. Like saying to your Crew Chief: "Nice set-up but in the race I didn't use it to it's fullest potential." The question would be: "Why the heck not?!?"

On a Metaphysical level: how do you know you have not used the full potential of something without first exceeding its limits?

(wink wink)

 

[Brent Carter]

Turning in your camera is choice. The financial and economical pros and cons are for the customer to decide, not RED. We are just giving you an option. It is by no means the only option, as you pointed out.

So, in the shoes of the customer, you'd think it was more economical to turn in your camera for only 15,000 dollars of credit when it could be sold on Reduser within a week for up to 25,000? Or was giving its street value back in credit not within reason?

I understand that perhaps the previous upgrade paths really were not within reason as they were so amazing getting your full purchase price back, however offering less than its street value seems more unreasonable than even that.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I don't think the upgrade path works for every purchase, I think it makes sense for some people to buy a dragon and let it depreciate over 3 years.

For me i've kind of split this, one camera is doing the upgrade path, the other is going to be a work horse for the next 3 years with a possibility of maybe upgrading it late 2016(but i just might buy a weapon straight out in early 2017). I think some of the older red one people are fanatical on the upgrade path, and feel like they are loosing out if they get off the upgrade route(also some people are fanatical on having the newest and shines object - i think this is just a bad habit to get into).

To me though, both paths are totally valid - i have no doubt that my dragon epic will be total work horse for the next 3 years.

[ I btw did a comparison to the arri mini, i wouldn't even compare it to a dragon epic, much more of a complement camera if you already are shooting with a Alexa xt. Since I do double camera shoots, this means if I really liked the alexa mini, i would need to buy a mini plus an xt, to have something comparable to what I have. So going that mini & xt route to replace my two dragons was huge on cost. Plus i was going to get just a fraction from what i have with the dragons. I also use the movi 15, so the slight weight decrease on the mini wasn't much compared to my total package weight including lenses - i love master primes . Only reason I see in buying a mini (and not renting one), is if i had a lot of movi type jobs lined up where i new i was going to be working alexa productions]

 

[Elsie N]

So, in the shoes of the customer, you'd think it was more economical to turn in your camera for only 15,000 dollars of credit when it could be sold on Reduser within a week for up to 25,000? Or was giving its street value back in credit not within reason?

I understand that perhaps the previous upgrade paths really were not within reason as they were so amazing getting your full purchase price back, however offering less than its street value seems more unreasonable than even that.

As Brent said, there were options. My choice was to sell two Epic X Dragons and put the receipts of that toward a CF Weapon with the 8k sensor pre-order price option. The two Dragons got me within $10,000 of that price, so I *only* had to come up with that amount.

Luckily (and for the umpteenth time... THANKS! Brent, Jarred, and Company for extending the deadline) I was able to get in just one day before the extended drop-dead date.

This was a personal decision that I came to on my own. There were other ways I could have gone but because of the options before me, this is the choice that appealed to me most.

Someday, I hope to add back a Weapon Magnesium 8k to return me to my 2 camera state.

 

[luigivaltulini]

EDIT: I should also note that the whole integrated WCU-4 focus system, the built in ND's (without losing a stop and a half from the motion mount), and of course the ProRes function swayed me to choose the Alexa Mini. These are things that will come with the Weapon in time, I'm sure; but I'd rather not wait a year and a half on back orders to receive, let alone spend the same amount in upgrades and new equipment when the same amount can get me the Mini.

I have just received one last week, I spent two hours and then sent back.

- True, you have ND filters without loss of 1.5 stops (yep but not have global shutter o soft shutter)
- True, you have the ProRes board.
- True wcu board

Not so good:
- The viewfinder be worse than ALexa, better bomb of RED.
- You only have the option to connect the battery to the side, totally unbalanced .. or behind but only on rod, you can use Dragon with a REdvolt with side handle to be more light and fast in certain shots.
- Much bigger than a Dragon and little bit heavy.
- The raw unfortunately you can not do slow, 20 seconds of the restart to ProRes 200 fps. (dilemma! , shot on prores or Raw!!)
- The REC be only on the right, on the gimbal is good to have more possibilities.

But I can list other things that I found out in two hours, I finally kept the old Alexa Ev prefer it vs Alexa Mini... but Dragon still remain my best solution and option right now.
I understand your point of view with regard to RED, they sometimes things do not always go at the right time and maybe more expensive more than what you think, but sell Dragon to a Arri Mini do not share it as a choice.
Now I prefer to make the customer happy, just to have some money to invest in the editing room and grading. The customer exit satisfied.

But if that makes you happy, then you have made the right choice for you

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

So, in the shoes of the customer, you'd think it was more economical to turn in your camera for only 15,000 dollars of credit when it could be sold on Reduser within a week for up to 25,000? Or was giving its street value back in credit not within reason?

I understand that perhaps the previous upgrade paths really were not within reason as they were so amazing getting your full purchase price back, however offering less than its street value seems more unreasonable than even that.

Frank what do yo expect from Red? Pay 30K for an used body? http://www.red.com/store/products/epic-x-dragon-brain-only
24K $ brand new price and how come you gonna sell yours to 25K $?

 

[Zeb B]

The Weapon upgrade pricing might be out of reach for some (me) . . . but to use the Arri Mini as an example of gettin it done is silly. It's a compromise, product line gap-filling camera that will look real dated within a year.

 

[Frank Hague]

I'm not sure it's fair to ask RED to give you full value for a used camera.

Also, I'm not sure it's fair to complain about a 15-20K upgrade (for a 40K+ upgrade bundle), when you seem perfectly willing to spend 60K for an Alexa Mini (which at this point has a 5/6 year old sensor).

RED has been very generous in the past. But they are perfectly in their rights to create a new, more expensive camera. No one went crazy when Arri released the Alexa XT.

Your mini is MUCH more than a 6K Weapon brand new.

You could have kept your Dragon (as a b-cam), bought a Weapon brand new (A-Cam), and spent LESS than you did on your mini.

And it's not like Arri is giving you things for free. The EVF is crazy expensive. And the extra "licenses" (for RAW and Slowmo) I believe are quite pricey also. I'm not sure why Arri gets a pass, but RED doesn't.

Sounds like Arri is allowed to be expensive, but RED always needs to pass on huge savings?

RED has been delivering amazing value for years. I don't see Weapon being any different. If they can pull off 4K Prores internal (which seems imminent), Weapon could be a game changer. No fake uprezzed 4K. Pure 8K RAW R3ds, and 4K internal Prores, in a sleek 3lb body.

Sounds like amazing value to me.

I'm not sure where you're getting this math, but the entire Mini package (EVF, WCU-4, media, power and all) will be about 60,000. i thought the Weapon Dragon with everything ready to shoot will be about the same price (50K before accessories)?

So I could sell my Dragon package for about 30,000 right now and pay a difference of 30,000 for the Mini, which would be the nearly the same difference I'd pay to Red to get the Weapon upgrade and all the new accessories needed for it. There is no extra B-Cam left over with this math, but maybe I'm missing something?

 

[Frank Hague]

Frank what do yo expect from Red? Pay 30K for an used body? http://www.red.com/store/products/epic-x-dragon-brain-only
24K $ brand new price and how come you gonna sell yours to 25K $?

I didn't even know this was the case, I thought the Dragon was still priced at 29,500. Red dropping the price of the Dragon the day they decide to give us less value for it does not strengthen their argument. It actually makes me even more upset.

The point is we previously spent 29,500 on our camera two years ago and finally received it only a year ago (not in the full operating functionality it had marketed itself either) and now we're being told we can trade it in for half its value. How do you not see a problem with that?

 

[Elsie N]

I'm not sure where you're getting this math, but the entire Mini package (EVF, WCU-4, media, power and all) will be about 60,000. i thought the Weapon Dragon with everything ready to shoot will be about the same price (50K before accessories)?

So I could sell my Dragon package for about 30,000 right now and pay a difference of 30,000 for the Mini, which would be the nearly the same difference I'd pay to Red to get the Weapon upgrade and all the new accessories needed for it. There is no extra B-Cam left over with this math, but maybe I'm missing something?

Or you could keep the 6k camera and the $30,000 and keep-on keepin-on. '-)

EDIT: Buy yourself a new car with that $30,000 if you just need to buy something. Plus, you can trade it in on next year's model and get full price on the trade-in. '-)

 

[Frank Hague]

The Weapon upgrade pricing might be out of reach for some (me) . . . but to use the Arri Mini as an example of gettin it done is silly. It's a compromise, product line gap-filling camera that will look real dated within a year.

I haven't used the Mini as any example, Zeb. Ont eh contrary, I specifically said this choice was "between companies, not cameras". Never did I argue that the Mini was a better deal or even the better camera.

 

[Frank Hague]

Or you could keep the 6k camera and the $30,000 and keep-on keepin-on. '-)

Yes, that was my other option. Instead I've decided to hold onto the Dragon and purchase a Mini in addition to it.

my point is that I will not be making anymore purchases with Red until they change their business model, and I've only posted this as a fan of Red cameras in hopes that the moderators and staff at Red will take notice.

I find it strange that everyone on here acts like what I'm writing is sacrilege when every professional in Los Angeles has had to hear some of the same complaints about Red since NAB. Red has really hurt themselves with this last fiasco and they should know that it's no longer the condescending Alexa yuppies talking shit, but their own users as well. They really need to hear this because most of their loyal Redusers either remain reticent while the complaints pile or, even worse, they go on publicly defending Red on these boards.

 

[Elsie N]

Yes, that was my other option. Instead I've decided to hold onto the Dragon and purchase a Mini in addition to it.

my point is that I will not be making anymore purchases with Red until they change their business model, and I've only posted this as a fan of Red cameras in hopes that the moderators and staff at Red will take notice.

I find it strange that everyone on here acts like what I'm writing is sacrilege when every professional in Los Angeles has had to hear some of the same complaints about Red since NAB. Red has really hurt themselves with this last fiasco and they should know that it's no longer the condescending Alexa yuppies talking shit, but their own users as well. They really need to hear this because most of their loyal Redusers either remain reticent while the complaints pile or, even worse, they go on publicly defending Red on these boards.

Good to hear you are holding on to the Dragon.

I'm no futurist but I think at some point in the future you will be glad you did and will eventually put your mini up in the closet because it will have lost so much value that you are miffed because all anyone will offer you is about $.40 on the dollar for it... so you put it out of sight in protest.

 

[Stacey Spears]

I find it strange that everyone on here acts like what I'm writing is sacrilege when every professional in Los Angeles has had to hear some of the same complaints about Red since NAB.

This is unfortunate, but you had to expect it when you made the post. Its sort of the way things go around here. You have stayed pretty positive in your responses on this thread vs. getting defensive, which is refreshing.

my point is that I will not be making anymore purchases with Red until they change their business model

What is it you wish them to change? You want a better trade-in deal or lower prices? Genuinely curious.

At the end of the day, you need to go with what will work best for you. Be that Red, Sony, Arri, BMD, AJA, etc... We seem to be seeing more cameras at a faster pace. That is both good and bad. Good that these companies are pushing each other, bad that it makes us feel like what we have is outdated. I know I was diagnosed with upgrade(idis) many years ago.

 

[Zeb B]

I haven't used the Mini as any example, Zeb. Ont eh contrary, I specifically said this choice was "between companies, not cameras". Never did I argue that the Mini was a better deal or even the better camera.

Posting anything in this forum section is an invitation to be beaten by fan bois. It's like some folk think RED will sprinkle fairy dust on them if they aggressively bark down any dissent or complaints. In what form would this magic dust appear so I can look out for it? ;-)

 

[Akin A]

I didn't even know this was the case, I thought the Dragon was still priced at 29,500. Red dropping the price of the Dragon the day they decide to give us less value for it does not strengthen their argument. It actually makes me even more upset.

The point is we previously spent 29,500 on our camera two years ago and finally received it only a year ago (not in the full operating functionality it had marketed itself either) and now we're being told we can trade it in for half its value. How do you not see a problem with that?

Epic-X Dragon has always been $24,000. It was released after Epic-M Dragon, which is $29,000.

I've been trying to hold myself back from commenting, but this thread sounds very entitled. RED is not a non-profit organization.

 

[Frank Hague]

What is it you wish them to change? You want a better trade-in deal or lower prices? Genuinely curious.

I'd appreciate it if they didn't present upgrades every year to our cameras, or at least allow us to actually receive the cameras when we order them so we have an entire year to sue them before being asked to upgrade. I wish they wouldn't tell us we only have a few days to preorder the upgrade before the deal gets worse without even having their reps tell us exactly what we're paying for (and then come back a week later and say they're prolonging this grace period by a few weeks and act like they're doing us a favor for fixing their own mistake). I wish the cameras and upgrades I was preordering would come with all the features they're advertised as without having to wait for them to create fixes and then having to send it in for said fixes. I wish they wouldn't claim their cameras to have 21 stops of dynamic range in their initial tests. And I wish they would respond to these critiques with some accountability for a change. Recognizing these mistakes would be the first step to righting the path.

These are all aspects of their business model that aren't prevalent in Arri's.

 

[Zeb B]

I'd appreciate it if they didn't present upgrades every year to our cameras, or at least allow us to actually receive the cameras when we order them so we have an entire year to sue them before being asked to upgrade. I wish they wouldn't tell us we only have a few days to preorder the upgrade before the deal gets worse without even having their reps tell us exactly what we're paying for (and then come back a week later and say they're prolonging this grace period by a few weeks and act like they're doing us a favor for fixing their own mistake). I wish the cameras and upgrades I was preordering would come with all the features they're advertised as without having to wait for them to create fixes and then having to send it in for said fixes. I wish they wouldn't claim their cameras to have 21 stops of dynamic range in their initial tests. And I wish they would respond to these critiques with some accountability for a change. Recognizing these mistakes would be the first step to righting the path.

These are all aspects of their business model that aren't prevalent in Arri's.

Let the beatings continue ;-)

 

[Stacey Spears]

so we have an entire year to sue them before being asked to upgrade.

I assume you meant use and not sue. An unfortunate typo.

I agree with some of your points, but not others. I think Red needs to offer something new every year. Other camera companies are offering new models ever year. Red needs a new offering every year as well to stay competitive. Be that perceived or actual. I think the bigger issue is that the turn around process to get everyone the new tech has been slower than everyone would like.

Red never claimed 21 stops. The post you are talking about here shows a Xyla-21 chart and goes from 1-18 in the image. On this type of chart, it is always 1 less than the number of steps. e.g. The Xyla-21 chart has 21 steps to measure up to 20-stops of dynamic range. Its easy to understand why people get confused on the chart. I think people misread Jarred's post where he said a 21-step chart and assumed 21-stops.

Depending on the amount of noise you can tolerate, I would say the chart shows 14-16 stops of usable dynamic range. Gavin posted the chart when we compared the Epic MX to Dragon. For a long time Red did not want to post an actual number of stops and instead said that Dragon has 2 more stops than MX. They probably said that because people could not agree on how many stops the MX had. I believe Red claimed 14 while others claimed 12. Now I believe Red advertises 16+ stops of dynamic range. But with all this said, I get your point.