Jim, the vast majority of us RED owners are ecstactic about the upgrade offers

[Jarred Land]

RED,

made me think - of course some people freaked out when you did not include the Red1 at all in your future line up. just Scarlet and Epic. Might have saved alot of trouble just including red1 in the pictures and specs as an equal

if you had showed this comparison right away, I bet you could have avoide some panicking customers

still what a fantastic lineup.

we actually did.. ( include pictures of the RED ONE and included it in the original spec sheet )

I don't really understand why people are thinking that we just threw the RED ONE off the back of the truck as soon as we announced the DSMC cameras.. the RED ONE is still a very important part of our program and we are still very actively developing it.

 

[Denis Buhot]

not sure..

not sure..

Why are you not selling your Red if you are not satisfed?
I

.. I can sell it anyway, with that announcement of a brand new line of products ahead... Red appeasing statements make no real difference : Red one is now cornered in some uncomfortable niche between the new scarlet and epic.

Upgrades were truly a mix of additional (sometimes dispensable) features, fixes of earlier flaws, and... remaining major downsides (boot-up time or lack of power saving function) that should have been adressed in some way, not simply ignored.

The problem is that those major downsides are very unlikely to be ever adressed now. They've been ignored in the past, and since I don't see how the Red one could be a living product with no more new demand for it, they will be ignored in the future... More really substantial investment by Red in the R1 is very unlikely... In addition, if the workflow technology of the new products ever become specific for whatever unpredictable reasons, the owners of red one will be stuck with the existing workflow(s). Unlikely ? Yes.. but confidence, once shaken...

Those in the lower-end market, that can't or don't want to upgrade for Epic, and who are not offered a 17.500 usd value fror a scarlet must feel bitter, like me, and think that their initial trust has financed both Red's technological advance.. and the high-end customers who are offered all the benefit of the future products.

Indeed, we all tend to speak from our particular standpoint... Enthusiasts and fans speak loud, so do angry customers... The majority that remains silent might well be a sad majority.

My real name !

 

[Deanan]

Upgrades were truly a mix of additional (sometimes dispensable) features, fixes of earlier flaws, and... remaining major downsides (boot-up time or lack of power saving function) that should have been adressed in some way, not simply ignored.

More really substantial investment by Red in the R1 is very unlikely... In addition, if the workflow technology of the new products ever become specific for whatever unpredictable reasons, the owners of red one will be stuck with the existing workflow(s). Unlikely ? Yes.. but confidence, once shaken...

A tremendous number of hours is put into reducing boot time and to keep boot time from rising with all the features being added. We've hit the wall for REDone but we'll keep on trying.

We have dedicated people working R1 only to keep bringing firmware updates and things like a sensor board upgrade.

Our workflow tools will support R1, Epic and Scarlet simultaneously so workflow is always supported for old footage.

 

[Jannard]

While I take exception to your opinion that we will ignore the RED ONE (Build 18 yesterday), I do understand your position. We did learn a lot from the RED ONE that lead to improvements in Scarlet and EPIC. But unlike other companies that completely ignore the past and their customers, we have bent over backwards to help our customers move to the future.

If you choose to ignore this... your choice. We feel very comfortable that we have done our best to continue to deliver the future and take care of our customers. Just curious... what would you have done?

Jim

 

[Danny Robashkin]

That new spec sheet really helps. It shows how the RED ONE still has some benefits over the Scarlet. Plus, I'm sure there are more smaller details.

what is even cooler though is seeing the benefit from an Epic upgrade. 2K at 200 FPS.... are you kidding me? Maybe 1080P at 240 FPS? That's too much

 

[David M]

Plasmatic, your post has come long after my images were removed, did you even experience them?

Your name is Jarred Land then is it? That was who I was responding to.
And, no as it happens I didn't "experience them".
But I've experienced similar handiwork from other people, both here and elsewhere.
Chrissake, if you were using a monitor that displays at 72 pixels per inch, a 4K image comes out 55 inches wide, so a lot of screens can only show you about 20% of it at a time! I'm just suggesting a more polite way of making your images readily accessible to people who might , I repeat might, want to actually see them.

 

[David Birdy]

While I take exception to your opinion that we will ignore the RED ONE (Build 18 yesterday), I do understand your position. We did learn a lot from the RED ONE that lead to improvements in Scarlet and EPIC. But unlike other companies that completely ignore the past and their customers, we have bent over backwards to help our customers move to the future.

If you choose to ignore this... your choice. We feel very comfortable that we have done our best to continue to deliver the future and take care of our customers. Just curious... what would you have done?

Jim

Thanks Jim Well said !

I and many others are very happy with the new product line you have worked so hard to produce.

In all the drama in the last few days some may have missed the genius behind these new products.

Red continues to support the "glass" that is out in the filed working now by offering industry standard lens mount choices. By formatting the digital sensors to the "organic" film sizes old lens's will work with new sensors.

The Redcode upgrade to include less compression from 28 & 36 to 42 and 225!

Your group must be having the time of their life building this company!!!

You will certainly paint the NAB RED in 2009!

Do you have any Red workshops planned for the NAB this year?
A post workshop away from the both would be brilliant!!!

Best
Dave

 

[jtcoleman]

While I take exception to your opinion that we will ignore the RED ONE (Build 18 yesterday), I do understand your position. We did learn a lot from the RED ONE that lead to improvements in Scarlet and EPIC. But unlike other companies that completely ignore the past and their customers, we have bent over backwards to help our customers move to the future.

If you choose to ignore this... your choice. We feel very comfortable that we have done our best to continue to deliver the future and take care of our customers. Just curious... what would you have done?

Jim

I don't choose to ignore it, but finances being what they are, I can't take advantage of it. I can't justify another $10k to upgrade to an Epic.

Your question, though, is a good one... what would I have done?

That's hard to say without being privy to the numbers, but let me take a shot. It seems like you guys are willing to give us credit for the original purchase as long as there is enough additional revenue coming in to offset the cost, so that you aren't taking a bath on your original customers moving into the new upgrade path. That seems reasonable.

Perhaps a solution that would have been a little more flexible. If the goal is to cover $10,000 worth of the new cost, maybe a rule of: "we will credit the full value of the camera, if you spend another $10k with us on anything you like." This way people who don't want or need an Epic could make other options: buying 2 scarlets so they can do A/B camera setups. Buying that lens that we've been wanted to get for months. Picking up the new larger LCD and filling out our package to make it more rentable.

Again, I'm not privy to your numbers, so it's hard to say -- it's very possible that the margin you have on accessories or lenses (as opposed to the new brains) would make that approach completely unworkable.

Jim, please understand that it's not that we find the new lineup uninspiring. Quite the opposite, in fact. The fact that it is SO COOL is what makes this so painful to us. To be an early adopter, and not be able to make the jump with the rest of you is pure agony.

JT Coleman
Austin, Texas

 

[Appleguy]

For most people who have bought the Red One their goal was to use it or rent it, either way to make money off it. With the timescales coming up and my Red One to be delievere din a week or two I believe I fully have enough time to make back the money I spent on the camera in rental and production.

So I look at it this way.

The Red One cost me £10'000

I'll DEFINITLEY make that money back.

So even if I make no more money after that I've gotten myself a Red One for more or less free.

So what's better? Ten grand sat in an account for a year? Or Ten grand and a 4K camera for a years investment.

I'm personally ecstatic with what's afoot and with the advent of the epics and their more 'professional' pricing it'll mean less competition for the who wish to rent like myself.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

I will say straight up that I am not "thrilled" with paying what will be an additional $20 - $40k for either an S35 or FF35 (Gotta remember the "other bits" kiddies) but... This is my business.

To be completely honest, I would have liked an addiitonal to the upgrade path:
Don't trade in your RED, but if you are a regestered user you can still get a $15,000 discount on an Epic FF35 or better.

This way, I would not be paying more for a replacement, but in fact paying for an ADDITIONAL CAMERA. This is would have been cool.

Nevertheless, I am happy with what RED's Offering.

Jim, you planning to donate the 4000-6000 cameras to film schools like Apple?

Jay

 

[David Wyatt]

time to switch to real names?

Please...that would be great...would cure a lot of problems!! If anyone had a problem with it do a poll (can't imagine anyone would actually vote for anonymity when all it seems to achieve is unnecessary flaming & bulls****ing)

 

[Denis Buhot]

What I would NOT have done..

What I would NOT have done..

s. Just curious... what would you have done?

Jim

well, Jim, say... I would NOT have marketed a product that would for ever miss such basic features as a reasonable bootup time or a sleep mode, as you must have known from the very early stages of development, but very progressively disclosed, even asking me on this forum why I "could not wait for the feature (sleep mode) to be enabled" and suggesting "I should go out shoot something else meanwhile". I guess I would have clearly stated I was testing a semi-prototype that people should not expect to ever become a really full featured camera, but that would instead remain confined to stage use (and perform perfectly there) Hence the (very) attractive price. I guess I'm not a successful businessman, though. I would have stated I didn't really care for anything else than the high-end market, and that I would adress only the very specific needs of that market, because the key for establishing Red's name was on that market. No shame. Sense of priorities. I would have waited.

Instead, no clear statement was made.

The fact some of us use it for field work just means some of us use it in less harsh field and difficult terrain than others... It also means that some of us can afford a crew, logistics and all. Question of money, too, which is no way I mean to undermine their merits !!

My subject, my camera and me.. that's what I like, and what I'm used to when it comes to wildlife shooting. Me for knowing, waiting, hiding, framing, pulling focus and sometimes.. starving. I'd really thought it would be the same with R1... plus an outstanding image quality as a final result.

Who could really believe that anyone would sell a camera that could beat all other cameras in the world... except it would not be given the feature that all other cameras have... and except it couldn't be used in places it should have been taken and used...

And, especially, who could have believed that from a man of your pride ? I couldn't and I confess my fault.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22052

Sounds great!

I have to confess making hasty conclusions Nov. 13th and quite did not capture the reasoning behind Scarlet and Epic lines. Fortunately, the news next day sorted out the confusion. Epic and some version of Scarlet as a second camera seems to be the answer for all needs can think of in wildlife shooting.

If possible, there are few technical things of Red One that I personally hope will be improved in Epic:

1) total weight of the system (this seems to be almost granted),
2) power consumption (leads to bigger mass),
3) booting up time.

Then, hopefully Red will make itself the Canon and Nikon mount or find a proper and reliable partner. The explanation is, the year spent in Birger line starts to be a tortune. I know Birger has let Red down and have a feeling that without Jarred the situation will be much worse. So, for the sake of everybody, if possible, no more Birger threads with ... (the rest of the sentence is censored)

 

[David Wyatt]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22052

Thanks for that - I imagine that's answered a lot of questions for a lot of people...I'm glad I stumbled upon it here!

Just two little questions about the FF35 Epic:

1. Where it says 115 fps in 4K - is that with Redcode 225? i.e. would we be able to achieve a higher frame rate like 150 fps in 4K if we dropped down to a higher compression rate like Redcode 42 or 36 (will you be able to chose such things with Epic?)

2. Will there be a resolution mode like 4.5K where you can get the absolute maximum sensor space for 35mm cine lenses?

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

My subject, my camera and me.. that's what I like, and what I'm used to when it comes to wildlife shooting. Me for knowing, waiting, hiding, framing, pulling focus and sometimes.. starving. I'd really thought it would be the same with R1... plus an outstanding image quality as a final result.

Buhot, has it really been that difficult to use Red One on the field? I use to have Canon XL-series cameras but have happily swapped them to Red One. Sure, a sleep mode and a shorter booting up time is in the wish list. But still, I can manage in a hide with Red One (with a Nikon mount) easily a day or two.

The camera has somewhat changed my working style. Nowadays, I have to try to guess more carefully what is coming and keep the camera on if I expect something to happen. Still, whenever look at the images I've got, I never get the feeling I would like to go back to the equipment I use to have in the past. Although the Birger customer policy manages to create a lot of frustration, even that has not made me to regret. So, I wonder, why you have found it differently?

 

[Rob Gardner]

I don’t understand the emotional tone of a lot of these critical posts. Betrayal, indifference, hidden motives…

Its just business and these are tools. I don’t know of any other company that would be as extraordinarily generous with a trade-in offer for a new product as this company is, and a new product that, from what we can see, really looks great.

So, if you can afford the new tool, and if it appeals to you for whatever reason, go for it. If you can’t or if it doesn’t seem worth the money, then don’t and continue to use the Red One camera, which continues to be an outstanding tool.

If you are disappointed because your mother never told you that sometimes life would not work out the way you wish it would, you should take that up with your mother…

Rob Gardner

 

[Steve Gibby]

The fact some of us use it for field work just means some of us use it in less harsh field and difficult terrain than others... It also means that some of us can afford a crew, logistics and all. Question of money, too, which is no way I mean to undermine their merits !!

My subject, my camera and me.. that's what I like, and what I'm used to when it comes to wildlife shooting. Me for knowing, waiting, hiding, framing, pulling focus and sometimes.. starving. I'd really thought it would be the same with R1... plus an outstanding image quality as a final result.

My experience with RED One has been very different than what you describe as yours. For background, I own multiple RED One cameras, and have been shooting with them for over 14 months now worldwide. Since you specifically mentioned wildlife production, that is one of the key genres in which I produce, direct, and shoot. I've directed and shot vast amounts of wildlife production using RED One, sometimes with a small mobile crew, and frequently just me alone hiking out into the wilderness with a complete RED One camera system on my back, shooting my footage, and then hiking back out.

Yes, a shorter boot up time would have been nice, and yes, a sleep mode would have been nice. Yes, those were suggestions myself and others made to RED last year. But IMO RED has done the best they could at optimizing the camera progressively through all the firmware updates.

So as professionals, me and my crews worked with my RED One cameras, with its many great features, and with a few workarounds, produced a robust library of excellent wildlife footage and some exciting wildlife documentaries which will be televised internationally in the coming months. Rather than hang around complaining about the few features we'd like added to the camera, and making excuses for what the camera supposedly couldn't do, we took it out into nature, put it to work, and capitalized on its strengths!

We've shot with RED One in the freezing cold, burning desert, and humid tropics - in the air, underwater, and in every environment you could imagine!

If you like a peek at just some of the results, you can click on the links in my signature and view tons of wildlife footage shot with RED One - and that's just the very tip of the iceberg - the library is vast. We also shoot in a long list of other genres and styles, wildlife is just one of them. But since you singled out wildlife I though I'd address that in this post.

Beyond my own wildlife footage production, I have several close associates who are among the best wildlife directors/cinematographers in the world who have shot remarkable footage in the past year with RED One. For example, if you visit the Footage Shot on RED forum, and click into the Four Months in Alaska thread started by good friend and business associate Kennan Ward, and view his footage, it is stunning - and he and his wife packed RED One deep into the wilds of Alaska for four straight months to get that outstanding footage - rather than sit at their California studio and complain about RED One boot up time or lack of a sleep mode on the camera! Again, capitalizing on the camera's strengths and working around its few weaknesses.

Bottom line: based on the obstacles they have had to overcome in building RED One from scratch in such a short time, RED Team has done a phenomenal job developing RED One. Yes, the new cameras announced have some of the next generation of features, but RED One still is, and will be for a long time a very potent camera system There will be many upgrade opportunities for RED One itself - Mysterium X sensor, additional firmware, etc.

Those of us who have maximized what RED One is capable of deeply appreciate the camera and the remarkable images it can generate. Yes, we will upgrade to Epic and also acquire Scarlet, but RED One is the foundation that enabled the development of all these new RED Products, and most of us early RED One owners feel honored to have been the pioneers who first put RED One in motion out in the field, and worked our way through the camera's growing pains happily in view of the new vistas it opened in our professional lives.

 

[Stuart English]

Red one

Red one

I would NOT have marketed a product that would for ever miss such basic features as a reasonable bootup time or a sleep mode. I would have stated I didn't really care for anything else than the high-end market, and that I would adress only the very specific needs of that market

In your application it is annoying that this "super camputer" takes a while to boot up - but you are way off the mark with these comments.


Why do you think the camera has 4 channels of audio - that's not required for high end cinema use.

Why do you think the camera has pre-record function - that's not for cinema use either.

Why do you think the camera has B4 lens adaptor, power and control.

Why do you think the camera shoots 2K at up to 120 fps.

Why do you think there is a multi-hour capacity RED-DRIVE?

Why do you think the camera uses QuickTime Proxies for laptop viewing / editing?



All of these are critical features necessary for EFP applications such as you describe.

Plus the fact it isn't it an F35 or Origin or Genesis sized product but instead 4K in a Digi-Beta sized package.



My apologies if we haven't 100% satisfied you, we'll try and do better next time.

But please don't question RED's motivation or desire to provide professional imaging tools.

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

My apologies if we haven't 100% satisfied you, we'll try and do better next time.

Stuart, those details you mentioned are indeed what makes Red One a wonderful tool for wildlife filming. For instance, the 4 channel audio enables the users to make surround recording, which is something I really appreciate.

Before Buhot ordered his camera we changed several pm's. I know the tone of his posts is not meant to be offending. He is simply saying he subconsciously expected every camera has a sleep mode and was surprised to find this is not the case in Red One. Of course, this is not RED's fault, and Buhot understands it. But, I guess this forum is also meant to be a place where people can tell their feeback and this is in benefit of everybody as long as the style is polite. As non-native English speakers we just occasionally struggle finding the words which gave the right tone.

Such small unexpected discoveries sometimes get too much biased. This is not comparable to the sleep-mode issue, but in my case I never really got excited about the Canon XL H1 the same way as I liked the XL2. For the XL H1 lenshad the tendency of creating chromatic aberration and the EVF was tinted towards magenta. Although I learnt how to avoid CA, still never managed to create a rapport with the XL H1. A nice camera, but still the feeling of not being my camera.

 

[Petr Dvorak]

Please do this! Everyone should take responsibility for themselves here as it is a professional forum (well, most of the time
is no need for anyone to hide behind a "code name" unless of course it is there business name.

It's strange why the hell still anybody forces me on that I am hiding something when I am using nickname??? ... Well they probably used to behave this way? Maybe its better if people hide behind "real" looking names. Not much difference :whistling:

Nothing personal Mike,