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Jim Deserves Better

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Daniel Stilling said:
Respect is respect. There are no different kinds of respect. All human beings, living creatures, natural elements that surrounds us deserve respect. And I am sad that this needs to be pointed out. But I digress...
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A difference of opinion between yourself and a colleague is just that...a disagreement. You respect their knowledge and skill while being at odds with them over something in particular.

If a person who knows nothing about cinematography tries to tell you how to do your job on a set and is clearly out of their depth and completely wrong (aka a client in some circles), would you have respect for their opinion in the matter? My guess is you wouldn't. You'd ignore them to the extent that you could because they're not qualified to comment. You may not want to admit it but that's an example of not having professional respect for someone.

You respect their right to their opinion. But, there's a difference between not respecting their actual opinion in that case and disrespecting them for having the opinion. You don't disrespect them out of your respect for humanity but you're going to want them to bugger off and leave you alone.

That's the distinction I think people make whether they realize they're doing it or not.
 
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All these years already from the early days when Red One was still on the drawing table, there has definitely been a lot of emotions around the products, and not everybody manages to express their views and feelings in such a thoughtful and cultivated manner as David Mullen does in this thread.

Many people have said in many forums that RedUserNet is a fan-boy club and filled with noise. One could ask, if there's noise, what is it the informative value of making noise of it, but I've came to the conclusion it's better to ask, so what?

The likelihood we make miscalculations is simply 100%. In the mid 90's I made a big one when people at this part of the world started to talk quite seriously of digital mobile phones. Their predictions sounded like real hype: One billion people will get a mobile phone etc. At the time I also thought Nokia will have no real chance in developing electronic products in the competition with Sony, Siemens, Ericsson etc., and therefore believed they will rather manage as a digital telecommunication system deliver and a phone manufacturer. And how wrong I was proven to be; Nokia has alone sold more than billion phones. Consequently, for years processed on my own why I let my emotions to lead me to such major misjudgements.

Luckily enough, since I had this experience, when when the first plans of Red One came out had also learnt the lesson. Having a background in sciences and engineering I thought everything what was said made really sense. Indeed, the camera manufactures -the big boys- were not exploiting what the technology could have made possible. At that point my only remaining concern was, how is the required R&D work going to be funded. Once realised from a comment of Steve Gibby that Jim is able to finance the hold thing himself, I knew, that is felt, they are going to succeed, and this made me to jump into the boat.

Developing the camera must have been quite an uphill battle and the whole thing is quite a miracle. To mention a few obvious obstacles, Jim had to first manage to hire the very best engineers into his team, simultaneously he had plan how to create a "readership", i.e. a potential customer basis and once it was there, he had to feed their curiosity and interest while things have been under development. And although Jim had/has resources, I'm pretty sure no billionaire is looking for an opportunity how to loose a billion or two. This is to say building a concept to economically end up with the best camera in a viable manner is a true challenge, if not a mission impossible. What has always amazed me, Red has a pretty small team and everything was centralized around a single webpage, the RedUserNet forum.

In my Finnish iceman eyes the numerous many "yee", "fantastic", "miraculous", "wonderful" or überwonderful comments on this forum have sometimes been over-the-top in my ordinary scale, but then should people be blamed when they express their joy. Everything boils down to the fact that Red cameras have been more than anybody expected and the reactions arise from such grounds. The reactions are the very proof of achieving more than expected.

While I understand that the very professional people have their critical comments on the Red equipments, there is still a point some of them may have missed; In all creative work it's always bit difficult to lay something which is under work to the criticism of a large audience. It is not that the working group was not aware of things being incomplete, but rather since the external people do not share the same vision as the workgroup, people outside easily raise criticism which is of no real use. Say, if a group is working with a movie and a half edited version is shown to some people, we all would expect professionalism, that is some restraint in the criticism from the professionals, as they know themselves what it is when things are still under progress.

Red has had to hold tightly on the loyal customers while developing new things. Everybody knows how some unjustified criticism may affect the mood and how false rumours may damage sincere business attempts. In developing the all time best camera of the mankind targeted both to big and small guys, it is easy to understand that adjusting the level of tolerance --while struggling with all other technical challenges and economical issues-- is not that simple. The outcome, Red Dragon, made in USA, and a very large number of loyal big and small satisfied customers IS a miracle; If somebody only knew to predict this back in 2006 ... and maybe Jim was quite close to knowing this.

I think Jim does not deserve better; he has already achieved it. It is the other way around, we as this community have not yet been able to digest all what has happened and we deserve better from ourselves.
 
Lauri Kettunen said:
All these years already from the early days when Red One was still on the drawing table, there has definitely been a lot of emotions around the products, and not everybody manages to express their views and feelings in such a thoughtful and cultivated manner as David Mullen does in this thread.

Many people have said in many forums that RedUserNet is a fan-boy club and filled with noise. One could ask, if there's noise, what is it the informative value of making noise of it, but I've came to the conclusion it's better to ask, so what?

The likelihood we make miscalculations is simply 100%. In the mid 90's I made a big one when people at this part of the world started to talk quite seriously of digital mobile phones. Their predictions sounded like real hype: One billion people will get a mobile phone etc. At the time I also thought Nokia will have no real chance in developing electronic products in the competition with Sony, Siemens, Ericsson etc., and therefore believed they will rather manage as a digital telecommunication system deliver and a phone manufacturer. And how wrong I was proven to be; Nokia has alone sold more than billion phones. Consequently, for years processed on my own why I let my emotions to lead me to such major misjudgements.

Luckily enough, since I had this experience, when when the first plans of Red One came out had also learnt the lesson. Having a background in sciences and engineering I thought everything what was said made really sense. Indeed, the camera manufactures -the big boys- were not exploiting what the technology could have made possible. At that point my only remaining concern was, how is the required R&D work going to be funded. Once realised from a comment of Steve Gibby that Jim is able to finance the hold thing himself, I knew, that is felt, they are going to succeed, and this made me to jump into the boat.

Developing the camera must have been quite an uphill battle and the whole thing is quite a miracle. To mention a few obvious obstacles, Jim had to first manage to hire the very best engineers into his team, simultaneously he had plan how to create a "readership", i.e. a potential customer basis and once it was there, he had to feed their curiosity and interest while things have been under development. And although Jim had/has resources, I'm pretty sure no billionaire is looking for an opportunity how to loose a billion or two. This is to say building a concept to economically end up with the best camera in a viable manner is a true challenge, if not a mission impossible. What has always amazed me, Red has a pretty small team and everything was centralized around a single webpage, the RedUserNet forum.

In my Finnish iceman eyes the numerous many "yee", "fantastic", "miraculous", "wonderful" or überwonderful comments on this forum have sometimes been over-the-top in my ordinary scale, but then should people be blamed when they express their joy. Everything boils down to the fact that Red cameras have been more than anybody expected and the reactions arise from such grounds. The reactions are the very proof of achieving more than expected.

While I understand that the very professional people have their critical comments on the Red equipments, there is still a point some of them may have missed; In all creative work it's always bit difficult to lay something which is under work to the criticism of a large audience. It is not that the working group was not aware of things being incomplete, but rather since the external people do not share the same vision as the workgroup, people outside easily raise criticism which is of no real use. Say, if a group is working with a movie and a half edited version is shown to some people, we all would expect professionalism, that is some restraint in the criticism from the professionals, as they know themselves what it is when things are still under progress.

Red has had to hold tightly on the loyal customers while developing new things. Everybody knows how some unjustified criticism may affect the mood and how false rumours may damage sincere business attempts. In developing the all time best camera of the mankind targeted both to big and small guys, it is easy to understand that adjusting the level of tolerance --while struggling with all other technical challenges and economical issues-- is not that simple. The outcome, Red Dragon, made in USA, and a very large number of loyal big and small satisfied customers IS a miracle; If somebody only knew to predict this back in 2006 ... and maybe Jim was quite close to knowing this.

I think Jim does not deserve better; he has already achieved it. It is the other way around, we as this community have not yet been able to digest all what has happened and we deserve better from ourselves.
Click to expand...

Thank you Lauri for so perfectly expressing your thoughts on the phenomena that is Jim, RED, the reactions to RED -- and also for highlighting how difficult and momentous it is to create something substantial, new and redefining.
 
Lauri Kettunen said:
I think Jim does not deserve better; he has already achieved it.
Click to expand...

Lauri - while your sentiments are laudable and well-expressed, your attempt at using the title I gave this thread to tie these comments in misrepresents what I fairly obviously stated at the outset. Namely, that Jim deserves better from some of the folks that choose to criticize him. There is no question that Jim has achieved excellence at an astronomically high level. And in doing so, has gotten riches, success and well deserved acknowledgment from many people. But my point was to suggest that there are small people in the industry who really do owe him more respect than they seem to give and in that context, he deserves better. :smiley:
 
Terry, my apologies, the same words may create a misinterpretation although both of us point into the same direction. Fortunately, almost everybody will read the lines (or between them) in the desired way.
 
If RED wants to reach more people they should invest in the proper commercials and glam it up like SONY etc. Tons of people want to make films but the biggest issue is what camera do I choose and most go with the name brand that's turning out false cameras. If they educate the consumer now before it gets too late RED can open up a totally new market. Someone has to take the lead and not by going to battle with other camera companies, remember the first goal was to get a RED in everyone's hand. What happened?? You created a camera that wasn't known to man and now you should create a market along with it. I give no secrets but my ideas are priceless=)
 
Tony Harris said:
If RED wants to reach more people they should invest in the proper commercials and glam it up like SONY etc. Tons of people want to make films but the biggest issue is what camera do I choose and most go with the name brand that's turning out false cameras. If they educate the consumer now before it gets too late RED can open up a totally new market. Someone has to take the lead and not by going to battle with other camera companies, remember the first goal was to get a RED in everyone's hand. What happened?? You created a camera that wasn't known to man and now you should create a market along with it. I give no secrets but my ideas are priceless=)
Click to expand...

The marketing for RED is the movies made with their cameras.

The thing I like about RED is they give you enough rope to hang yourself then say 'happy swinging'. You have to have the skill to use the camera, and RED has always sought to win over people who know what they're looking at with tests like this.

I respect them for staying away from smoke and mirrors.
 
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Movies made with the RED camera is not a smart marketing tool for a broader market but It could help. Don't get me wrong what they have done so far put us on board but rumors made me interested in them first, they weren't good ones until the RED ONE dropped. I saw it at film school and seen the footage then we danced until they told us the price. 6 years later the scarlet & upgrades put me into an Epic-x my dream camera. Market the stories because people love stories with goals and dreams that came to past. Look at the lottery for example.. you see people play and win all that money so it makes you play with doubt but still wanting your number to win.
 
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What on earth would suggest that RED is targeting the broad consumer market?? Or would want to? Or should?
 
Terry you didn't read the post correctly and this is how dumb rumors get started. No one said that RED was targeting the broad consumer market! If you don't work for them don't start to speak on their behalf... I'm done.
 
Brett Harrison said:
The marketing for RED is the movies made with their cameras.

The thing I like about RED is they give you enough rope to hang yourself then say 'happy swinging'. You have to have the skill to use the camera, and RED has always sought to win over people who know what they're looking at with tests like this.

I respect them for staying away from smoke and mirrors.
Click to expand...

like the "clean room" at NAB, you mean?

Red has always been about hype. Their marketing, although not traditional, is still very much there. They just take a different approach. I benefitted from that marketing approach in the early days when producers would ask for the red camera even though they knew nothing about what they were asking for and that camera was not necessarily the best tool for the job. They just wanted to say that they had shot their latest job on the red.
That's not the case any more. That revolution is over.
 
Back at ya, Tony. LOL

"...get a RED in everyone's hand."

"..broader market."

Hmmm.
 
Hype is kind of an interesting word. One person's hype is another person's opportunity to observe innovation in action, in real time.

The clean room at NAB is a perfect example. No, the cameras weren't going into the field to shoot anything for public consumption. That turned out to be a bit of a letdown - RED probably should have telegraphed it, but I'm sure they were far too excited at the arrival of the new sensor chips, just in time to complete the display.

On the other hand, I was able to spend half an hour at NAB chatting with the guy in charge of the lines of assembly at RED and enjoying a look behind the curtain. It was a pure geeky pleasure.

No other company has lifted the veil on their process like RED has. The fact that we have all been welcome on this forum to spout off these opinions was itself revolutionary and certainly speeded the revolution along.

The camera itself was a revolution, and RED will continue pushing. The knife in the heart of the trickleware model for releasing cameras, in my opinion, was just as big. Direct contact with the CEO and president of the company is a third revolutionary approach. Seeing under the hood of the development process is another.

As long as RED keeps pushing other companies along these lines, I'm calling the revolution a work in progress....

It is not the thrill ride that it once was, the thrill ride that had me pacing up and down the front hallway of my home, waiting for my first camera to be delivered, like a newborn. But there is still plenty of juice left for me to continue following along at home -

maybe considerably less juice, now that Jim won't be inciting riots across camera land into the wee hours of the morning -

I consider that a big loss. I will miss his thinking-out-loud style.

I will miss this thing that others call "hype" -

tomato, to-mah-to....
 
Does anyone remember when RED was going after sony for whatever reason.. I think sales? One of the things they said was RED should have spent more time on the consumer market. The clean room threw me off because it looked like a last minute decision from my point of view because they are the main attraction and I wanted to see the dragon in action like they have done with other cameras. The information about what RED has been up to was great. I look at the business world as where a business may fail or what they should have done because in starting my own I need to watch the big boys.
 
I always thought it a bit odd that Jim was criticized for being a hype man and showman when this industry is built around show business. Most of these companies are probably wound a little too tight.

My friend who lives in Vegas went to NAB in 2012. She's a nerd and tech geek to an extent much greater than she would ever let on. She particularly likes cameras but she doesn't really keep up with all the politics and fan favoritism.

So, without having any biases or alliances, she walked the convention floor and was impressed by a lot of what she saw from the smallest companies all the way up to the giants like Canon and Sony.

All she really knew of RED was what she heard me go on about regarding Scarlet so she was interested to finally see what the fuss was about. What immediately struck her was that RED was different from every other company there.

They looked different, carried themselves differently and had a very different mentality. They had swagger. As she put it, they seemed more "hood related" which, if you knew her, you'd know she meant it as a compliment.

Everyone else was basically walking around in standard issue polo shirts and khaki pants.

Now, imagine for a second that you have to look across the convention floor for several days and constantly be reminded, despite your very impressive technology, just how bland and boring your company is. RED probably provokes dislike based on that alone, on top of how they disrupted the industry.

Jim's, Jarred's and RED's style isn't for everybody, but it's weird that some people fault them for having any style at all.
 
You make a very good point Brian and I must admit that I'm not a fan of their militaristic style. It may not be for everyone but it seems to have worked to their benefit so far.
I tend to approach a purchasing decision as whether it is the right tool for the job and, for the last 5 years or so, the red one and the epic has served me well. These days, however the Alexa has become the go-to camera for a lot of the work that comes through my town and I am increasingly shooting on it and on the f55. I'm not saying those are better cameras (before people start attacking me), just that producers want an easy post route and these cameras deliver that.
 
Justin O'Neill said:
Jim was at the ASC Clubhouse last night showing off some Dragon footage shot by Peter Lyons Collister and talking about the new GPU accelerated debayer version of REDCINE-X. The man is still working his ass off. https://twitter.com/CineBill/status/369659972683964416/photo/1
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Well this is good news anyway. Perhaps he'll get that well deserved technical achievement award some day soon too! I will miss his posts as it sounds like we probably won't be able to figure out a way to pull him back in to chatting with us. They did make this site very interesting...
 
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