It's official, anyone now can be a colorist!

[Jeremy Torrie]

I've never lost money on a house!

 

[Ethan Cooper]

I've never lost money on a house!

Clearly you're not trying to sell a house right now.

Back to the issue at hand, it's quite possible this guy is a good enough colorist for his area/market but there's not enough of that type of work to go around so he also does these other things to make ends meet. Why do we get angry over how some guy tries to make a buck for himself & his family?

 

[Andrew Thomas]

If they're as good, as you're describing, they wouldn't need a side job :wink5:

This simply isn't true. I know many talented craftsmen in the industry who have had to supplement their income with side jobs. Talent doesn't dictate outcome.

 

[jake blackstone]

This simply isn't true. I know many talented craftsmen in the industry who have had to supplement their income with side jobs. Talent doesn't dictate outcome.

Do you mean, like talented actors, that are working as waiters on a side, until they finally get a message and find some other ways of making a living?
Doing it on a side is called a hobby. I'm not running around, calling myself an incredible lover/colorist:lol:

 

[jake blackstone]

Clearly you're not trying to sell a house right now.

I finally got rid of my house. That's why I NEED to work now as a colorist:emote_happyhappy:

 

[Bill Anderson]

Get used to it, soon they will be ten a penny. That's the beauty of the digital emancipation from the hallowed halls of film. Color correcting (and so much more) will become a part of one's workflow, just as darkroom work, in all its glory and complexities, was quickly adopted by serious photographers. Some will excel and others will not. Nothing new there. But digital post is where many indies will have the opportunity to shine. This is something to celebrate, not ridicule.

 

[Robert Frank]

People need to earn a living somehow, and I have worn many hats, often at the same time too.

In fact I'm restructuring my life right now, and need to focus on what I will do to earn a living. I have many skills I've acquired over the years, nearly all media related though, and put all my effort into becoming proficient at the things I choose to do.

However it does seem that it may be more acceptable to say "I do THIS, or I do THAT" rather than say "I can do both THIS and THAT". Maybe it's easier for people to define you that way.

But I totally got the point Jake is trying to get across. I've run into the person who asserts that they are a professional because they have a certain camera or software. Maybe they are. Maybe not.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

And if he's no good as you infer, then why worry about it?

Anyway, making movies is pretty straightforward these days, much easier than buying a house

No, making mediocre indy films is pretty straightforward.

Cameras have gotten somewhat simpler if you shoot digital, lighting is lighter, and that's about the only change from 60 years ago. You still need to plan your blocking, you still need to develop your plot and dialogue, you still need rehearsal with actors, you still (...)

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Do you mean, like talented actors, that are working as waiters on a side, until they finally get a message and find some other ways of making a living?
Doing it on a side is called a hobby. I'm not running around, calling myself an incredible lover/colorist:lol:

I agree - part of being good is being committed, is plunging in 100%. Do or die.

I look at my University graduating class, and those who starved and lived in holes and refused to get bar jobs are now much more successful than those who played it safe.

Part of being good is also experience. A good colorist is good, in part, because they have seen shots like mine before and know how to fix them or get them to look like "X" very quickly. That take many hours, hours one doesn't have if one does this for a few hours a week after selling houses or whatever.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

No one will become a colorist over night because developing sensibility, technical knowledge and experience take time. Simply slapping title on own name doesn't create required predispositions out of thin air in any occupation.

For those really interested...evolution of the craft is good. It will reduce the amount of Mickey Mouse color work currently seen everywhere.

 

[jimhare]

Opinions about social grace aside, I think the point is valid.

I have a client complaining about a 5-camera Red shoot being too expensive because his last project cost less.

I asked if he was happy with his last project and he said it was a total disaster. Everything about it was wrong.

I stated that this disaster probably occurred because he was working with substandard service providers, which is directly related to the budget.

He still maintains that the disaster was due to "pilot error" and not the budget.

I said this is the same thing, that he couldn't afford the right "pilot" and they certainly didn't spec the job properly based on the results he described.

Still don't agree.

The point is that prices are being driven down by people who are not capable of doing the work. They make a mess and leave clients scarred and paranoid.

Those of us who can deliver are being punished.

I'm in a fortunate position where the absolute majority of my clients appreciate and value what I do, which keeps the frustration in my life to a bare minimum!

 

[Jacky De Saint-Viage]

iPad fault !

iPad fault !

"Anyone now can be a colorist"...

iPad fault ! :scared:

it's a revolution ! Amazing ! Great ! :biggrinjester:

http://www.tangentdevices.co.uk/products_vWave.asp

Video :

http://vimeo.com/16788239

 

[Liam Hall]

No, making mediocre indy films is pretty straightforward.

I know what you mean, but my point is there simply aren't the barriers to entry into this business that there once were, both from a financial standpoint and a technological one. Indeed, for me, making high quality films has got exponentially easier since I started in this industry 26 years ago.

I spent most of my twenties and thirties popping in and out of different facilities for tele-cine or online or sound mixing or whatever. Now, I can do all that in my kitchen whilst eating my breakfast. I can shoot without upsetting an entire neighborhood and I can go to work without union arbitration. I'd say that's pretty different to ten years go, let alone sixty.

The economics have changed at every level of the industry. Indeed, we live in an age where a few talented people can team up and create a great feature film for $10 Million which would have cost $200 Million five years ago. I think this is a good thing. It opens the door to creativity - of course it also opens the door to the muppets, but so be it.

Oddly, I find that the more wannabe's, charlatans or friends of Shane Hurlbut that enter this industry the more my work gets appreciated. Sure, sometimes it's hard to justify charging a higher price than the Jonny-come-lightlys of this world and I'll lose a few jobs a year to somebody's uncle "who has an interest in cameras" or someone's workmate who "read how to make films on the net" (and even bought a DVD) but so what, the industry has never been much of a meritocracy anyway.

More fools equals more pay as far as I'm concerned

 

[N_Villers]

I'm totally with Liam on this one. The more others do not or cannot perform on a truly professional level the more my own work is appreciated. Again to use Liam's comments, I might lose a few jobs here and there but in the long run (and I'm in this for the long run) quality, and the accompanying reputation for quality is what matters.

I do sympathize, here in Budapest there are some real clowns running around and when they screw up (which they do) it hurts the reputation of working with red in general and as Jim Hare mentioned its hard to justify to a client why thiings cost what they do when others are low balling you. But I really do think we need to take a long term view and know that if we can offer a better service clients (and especially better clients) will appreciate the difference.

 

[jake blackstone]

Majority of job requests for color grading starts out by asking for a price to do, say, 90 minutes feature or 10 minutes short etc. Often, even this information is missing. Inevitably I have to explain (well, I actually have a form letter that I use just for such occasions), that in order to give an idea on the costs for a particular project, I would need more info, including, actually seeing the project. That's where it gets interesting. In some cases, clients already have quoted price from other "colorists", that was given to them under same "sight unseen, missing information" circumstances, usually, priced unrealistically low. Forget, that that price quote is based on nothing, I'm talking $500- $1000 for a feature That low price sets certain expectations. Granted, not everyone can afford true market price of post (what's a true market cost anyway?), so I'm fine with that. What I'm actually pointing out, is this "sight unseen" pricing distorts the whole market pricing. Some clients actually gets annoyed, that I can't give them the price right there and then, as it prevents them from being able to compare prices.
"It's all color grading, right? So, why can't we compare them?"
Unfortunately, most of the time it's ALL about the price.
Granted, prospective clients usually contact me, because they like my work and they hope to find a way to work with me and I always try to make that happen. Unfortunately, market distortion causes unrealistically low post budgets and as a result, our conversation inevitably starts on the wrong foot, so to speak, which can take a considerable amount of time and energy to overcome.

 

[Frank Cueto]

Interesting thread... We are dealing with this everyday, and can say that I am proud we are raising our rates and our clients understand why, and they are willing to negotiate. The ones we loose, well they usually come back after a job BADLY done.

I just refuse to compete in a race towards the bottom.


What could really tip this over is a guy at his home doing Superb work, for real cheap and delivering every single deliverable on time and on budget. If this happens, then it gets a lot more complicated. One can only hope such individual would see value in his talents and charge accordingly, then we would be competing on quality/artistry/responsibility and of course, Budget

 

[Adam Eden]

Opinions about social grace aside, I think the point is valid.

I have a client complaining about a 5-camera Red shoot being too expensive because his last project cost less.

I asked if he was happy with his last project and he said it was a total disaster. Everything about it was wrong.

I stated that this disaster probably occurred because he was working with substandard service providers, which is directly related to the budget.

He still maintains that the disaster was due to "pilot error" and not the budget.

I said this is the same thing, that he couldn't afford the right "pilot" and they certainly didn't spec the job properly based on the results he described.

Still don't agree.

The point is that prices are being driven down by people who are not capable of doing the work. They make a mess and leave clients scarred and paranoid.

Those of us who can deliver are being punished.

I'm in a fortunate position where the absolute majority of my clients appreciate and value what I do, which keeps the frustration in my life to a bare minimum!

Hi Jim

I am based in Sydney also and I own a Studio/ Red MX/ F800's x 2, Steadicam. 6 Avids on unity and a Symphony for Finishing Colour grading.

My point being is just recently I quoted a TVC using Steadicam/ Red. 2 day shoot Graphics/ Editing/ Audio the whole package including all the post work.

I thought I would help the client out and give a great price for the hope of future work....

The client came back saying I was way too expensive as the average quote he got was around $5K for the lot!!!!

So when I said you need to compare apples with apples. Apparently he came back to me saying."Well for price of just hiring your Red for a day (I quoted my RED out at $1K +GST NO OPERATOR) I can get an entire crew for 2 days including the RED.

I told him "Are you sure the camera is a RED ON MX or the colour of the handycam is RED"

I didn't hear back from him after that!

This is an ongoing problem for us is SYDNEY as there are so many Canon 5d/7d final cut packages around (They do have their own place and purpose in the industry). I believe with the use of better camera work/techniques that the clients will pay more. Thats why I got trained earlier this year in Steadicam and own an Archer 2 SE. And I try to have a good grip guy with a proper dolly system. Even spending more time on lighting a job and not compromising a shot to "save money"

I have been self employed in the industry of well over 15years now and what i have learnt is this.

Some clients can pay good money and some cant. The latter I treat as "Bread and Butter" clients that pay my wages and my staffs wages.

But never the less I always do my best for someone that is paying $2K or someone that is paying $20K for the same thing. In the end it all balances out.

But what always saves my business is that I have proper colour grading/ finishing tools. Like a proper Tektronics waveform/vector/gamma scope and a grade 1 Broadcast Sony monitor. Even having proper Dorrough/ Talia audio monitors in the online suite.

Because at the end of the day all these cheap guys know nothing technically about video or audio signals so when their final work is seen on tv it normally looks and sounds like shit because they didn't have proper external monitoring tools.

Thats my rant for the day but on a positive note I just received my new MX Sensor this week and I shot a music video on it with the new Optimo 24-290mm lens and OMG!!! It is the best work I have ever done especially exporting it straight to the AVID via Red Rocket and Red Cine using the new Redcolour2/Redgamma2. I will upload it in the next few weeks for everyone to see (Sony have to officially release the video before I can show anyone)

After watching the final grade..... If any one of my future clients cant see the difference between RED MX/ Proper grading and other cameras like 5d/7d and anything else... Well I don't want their business!

 

[Adam Eden]

When I said $5K for the lot from a competitor that included all post/music and a $850 voice over!

 

[jake blackstone]

What could really tip this over is a guy at his home doing Superb work, for real cheap and delivering every single deliverable on time and on budget. If this happens, then it gets a lot more complicated. One can only hope such individual would see value in his talents and charge accordingly, then we would be competing on quality/artistry/responsibility and of course, Budget

Sometimes this happens and I would guarantee, that those guys didn't just started delivering great quality out of the blue. Like any craftsmen, I'm sure, that quality of work is a result of a lot of hard work, considerable experience and talent. So, no, I wouldn't be terribly concerned about them.

 

[Jared Caldwell]

I think that there are a lot of people that have experience in multiple facets of filmmaking. When you are just starting out on your own, you wind up wearing a lot of different hats.

The problem is when you start advertising that you can "do it all". Just like any job you apply for, you want to show aspects of your resume that are relevant to the job you are applying for.

As far as jobs go, there are definitely guys in their basement that can produce high quality work. The generation that was born with computers have years and years of being familiar with software tools, and can have the time to get the much needed experience to perform amazing work.

There is a flood of people that claim professional results when they really can't deliver. That is going to happen when the barrier to entry is loosened. That is a given; however, it's all supply and demand. If there are more people who can do the job just as good and cheaper, then you are going to have to change your business plan.

In the end, it's all about the customer. The tools don't make you a professional; but, the more people that have access to the tools, the more professionals there are going to be. It is something that we are all going to have to deal with in a changing industry. :}